Question:

I am scheduled to start wound vac therapy next Tuesday.  I am an active and otherwise healthy T3 paraplegic with a surgical incision on the thigh/buttock that just won’t heal.  Yesterday, after two months of little or no healing, my doc recommended I try the wound vac.  He doesn’t know a lot about it, other than he has heard it can significantly speed healing. I dread the thought of being tethered to a buzzing, bulky contraption, but if it will help I think I need to give it a try.  I would love to hear from anyone who has experience with this device. Thanks! Dan

Response:

Dan: Good news!!  I only needed to be tethered for three weeks.  The VAC makes some noise but not a lot…  Watch the tubes and cords though – I used twist ties when possible to hold everything together but one night it came undone causing me to break my big toe trying to catch my balance after tripping on the cord…  ergh!  At least the pain was manageable. Best of luck to you!!  Let me know if you have any other questions. — ~Lisa S. Quinn "Criticize the words they’re selling – Think for yourself and feel the walls become like sand beneath your feet…."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am scheduled to start wound vac therapy next Tuesday.  I am an active and otherwise healthy T3 paraplegic with a surgical incision on the thigh/buttock that just won’t heal.  Yesterday, after two months of little or no healing, my doc recommended I try the wound vac.  He doesn’t know a lot about it, other than he has heard it can significantly speed healing. I dread the thought of being tethered to a buzzing, bulky contraption, but if it will help I think I need to give it a try.  I would love to hear from anyone who has experience with this device. Thanks! Dan

Response:

I have  had my wound vac for a month now.  Im getting very depressed. Healing seems to be taking forever.  Lisa is right about the tubes tripping you up.  It can be hard in the middle of the night to remember them.  Dr says it may be another month before Im done.  Im still using the black sponges, I guess white is the next step??

Response:

YW.  I hope today went well for you.  We need to keep our sense of humor about us, as someone once said here, it is sometimes the only sense (or cents) we have left.  mgbio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanx so much for the smile – I really needed that!! I Got the "Vac" installed today so I can’t go see Queensryche tonight – whaaaaa!  I’ll get over it and I hope that this "slight discomfort" they advertised lessens overnight cuz I would hate to experience more than slight… Anyway, I just wanted to take a sec to say thanx!!  More when I feel up to sitting for a while…  Take care all and thank you for the nice thoughts!! — ~Lisa S. Quinn "Criticize the words they’re selling – Think for yourself and feel the walls become like sand beneath your feet…."   Pssst….. Lisa, I found your paddle, Ken and Navid hid it out of your reach, the nerve! LOL    mgbio   Thanx anyway…  I am just so upset this time that I can’t even find the   up disease and way beyond tired of having it take away my life in little   pieces…   Butchers bill for the last 12 months:   Severe infection caused acute asthma attack and subsequent heart   attack.  - No other known causes available…   (Missed over a month of   work)  My daughter chose to live with her dad due to the all around   stress of having her mom in and out of the hospital…  One and one half   month after returning to work at about 80% effective, I notified my   superior that I may need additional leave time prior to the end of 2004   for surgery…  My employment was terminated two weeks later.  Claim   with EEOC pending…  Mediation probable so the bastards won’t even have   to admit what they did…  Complete end of this career path and over   fifteen years of invested time, energy, and effort – not to mention   access to affordable insurance and pension options…  My son chose to   join my daughter in living with their dad.  A total of FOUR hospital   admissions, two surgeries and now this!!  My sex life has already been   obliterated to less than a third of where we used to be just one short   year ago not to mention that an open fistula limits most activities   anyway…  Sometimes I wonder how my husband keeps finding the strength   to help me through all of this without loosing it too!  Here I am boo   hooing when he is still mourning the death of his parents within the   same year…  Oy Vey!  What a mess!!  Oy Vey!!  I want this to stop!   ENOUGH already!!  I get it!!  I’m sick, I don’t get to have a life!!   Ok, message received!!   Thank you all for listening.  While I know there is nothing that anyone   can do, it is nice knowing that there are other people rowing the same   boat up the same river…  Wait a minute!!  Which one of you stole my   paddle???   —   ~Lisa S. Quinn   Criticize the words they’re selling – Think for yourself and feel the   walls become like sand beneath your feet….     No advice, just hugs.     mgbio     HELP!!!     My surgical wound is STILL not healing correctly and the while   hydro-therapy     is starting to work a little bit, the wound is still healing from   the top     and NOT the bottom.  They are now going to be putting me on this Wound     Vacuum machine (tomorrow) which I need to remain connected to at all   times.     It is "portable" in that it comes with a carrying case with a long     over-the-shoulder strap like a small purse but I absolutely abhor the     thought of having to give up ONE more thing to this disease!!!     Sorry for the rant!!     Anyway, does ANYONE have personal experience with this process?   Any   ideas     of just how long I will have to remain on this device?     Thanx, in advance!!!

Response:

Always!! Rebecca

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – GMTA Rebecca  mgbio (((((((((((Lisa)))))))))))) Can’t offer any wound information but figured you could at least use a few hugs. Rebecca HELP!!! My surgical wound is STILL not healing correctly and the while hydro-therapy is starting to work a little bit, the wound is still healing from the top and NOT the bottom.  They are now going to be putting me on this Wound Vacuum machine (tomorrow) which I need to remain connected to at all times. It is "portable" in that it comes with a carrying case with a long over-the-shoulder strap like a small purse but I absolutely abhor the thought of having to give up ONE more thing to this disease!!! Sorry for the rant!! Anyway, does ANYONE have personal experience with this process?  Any ideas of just how long I will have to remain on this device? Thanx, in advance!!! — ~Lisa S. Quinn Criticize the words they’re selling – Think for yourself and feel the walls become like sand beneath your feet….

Response:

Pssst….. Lisa, I found your paddle, Ken and Navid hid it out of your reach, the nerve! LOL  mgbio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanx anyway…  I am just so upset this time that I can’t even find the up disease and way beyond tired of having it take away my life in little pieces… Butchers bill for the last 12 months: Severe infection caused acute asthma attack and subsequent heart attack.  - No other known causes available…   (Missed over a month of work)  My daughter chose to live with her dad due to the all around stress of having her mom in and out of the hospital…  One and one half month after returning to work at about 80% effective, I notified my superior that I may need additional leave time prior to the end of 2004 for surgery…  My employment was terminated two weeks later.  Claim with EEOC pending…  Mediation probable so the bastards won’t even have to admit what they did…  Complete end of this career path and over fifteen years of invested time, energy, and effort – not to mention access to affordable insurance and pension options…  My son chose to join my daughter in living with their dad.  A total of FOUR hospital admissions, two surgeries and now this!!  My sex life has already been obliterated to less than a third of where we used to be just one short year ago not to mention that an open fistula limits most activities anyway…  Sometimes I wonder how my husband keeps finding the strength to help me through all of this without loosing it too!  Here I am boo hooing when he is still mourning the death of his parents within the same year…  Oy Vey!  What a mess!!  Oy Vey!!  I want this to stop! ENOUGH already!!  I get it!!  I’m sick, I don’t get to have a life!!   Ok, message received!! Thank you all for listening.  While I know there is nothing that anyone can do, it is nice knowing that there are other people rowing the same boat up the same river…  Wait a minute!!  Which one of you stole my paddle??? — ~Lisa S. Quinn Criticize the words they’re selling – Think for yourself and feel the walls become like sand beneath your feet….   No advice, just hugs.   mgbio   HELP!!!   My surgical wound is STILL not healing correctly and the while hydro-therapy   is starting to work a little bit, the wound is still healing from the top   and NOT the bottom.  They are now going to be putting me on this Wound   Vacuum machine (tomorrow) which I need to remain connected to at all times.   It is "portable" in that it comes with a carrying case with a long   over-the-shoulder strap like a small purse but I absolutely abhor the   thought of having to give up ONE more thing to this disease!!!   Sorry for the rant!!   Anyway, does ANYONE have personal experience with this process?  Any ideas   of just how long I will have to remain on this device?   Thanx, in advance!!!

Response:

Thanx so much for the smile – I really needed that!!   I Got the "Vac" installed today so I can’t go see Queensryche tonight – whaaaaa!  I’ll get over it and I hope that this "slight discomfort" they advertised lessens overnight cuz I would hate to experience more than slight… Anyway, I just wanted to take a sec to say thanx!!  More when I feel up to sitting for a while…  Take care all and thank you for the nice thoughts!!   — ~Lisa S. Quinn "Criticize the words they’re selling – Think for yourself and feel the walls become like sand beneath your feet…." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pssst….. Lisa, I found your paddle, Ken and Navid hid it out of your reach, the nerve! LOL  mgbio Thanx anyway…  I am just so upset this time that I can’t even find the up disease and way beyond tired of having it take away my life in little pieces… Butchers bill for the last 12 months: Severe infection caused acute asthma attack and subsequent heart attack.  - No other known causes available…   (Missed over a month of work)  My daughter chose to live with her dad due to the all around stress of having her mom in and out of the hospital…  One and one half month after returning to work at about 80% effective, I notified my superior that I may need additional leave time prior to the end of 2004 for surgery…  My employment was terminated two weeks later.  Claim with EEOC pending…  Mediation probable so the bastards won’t even have to admit what they did…  Complete end of this career path and over fifteen years of invested time, energy, and effort – not to mention access to affordable insurance and pension options…  My son chose to join my daughter in living with their dad.  A total of FOUR hospital admissions, two surgeries and now this!!  My sex life has already been obliterated to less than a third of where we used to be just one short year ago not to mention that an open fistula limits most activities anyway…  Sometimes I wonder how my husband keeps finding the strength to help me through all of this without loosing it too!  Here I am boo hooing when he is still mourning the death of his parents within the same year…  Oy Vey!  What a mess!!  Oy Vey!!  I want this to stop! ENOUGH already!!  I get it!!  I’m sick, I don’t get to have a life!!   Ok, message received!! Thank you all for listening.  While I know there is nothing that anyone can do, it is nice knowing that there are other people rowing the same boat up the same river…  Wait a minute!!  Which one of you stole my paddle??? — ~Lisa S. Quinn Criticize the words they’re selling – Think for yourself and feel the walls become like sand beneath your feet….   No advice, just hugs.   mgbio   HELP!!!   My surgical wound is STILL not healing correctly and the while hydro-therapy   is starting to work a little bit, the wound is still healing from the top   and NOT the bottom.  They are now going to be putting me on this Wound   Vacuum machine (tomorrow) which I need to remain connected to at all times.   It is "portable" in that it comes with a carrying case with a long   over-the-shoulder strap like a small purse but I absolutely abhor the   thought of having to give up ONE more thing to this disease!!!   Sorry for the rant!!   Anyway, does ANYONE have personal experience with this process?  Any ideas   of just how long I will have to remain on this device?   Thanx, in advance!!!

Response:

GMTA Rebecca  mgbio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (((((((((((Lisa)))))))))))) Can’t offer any wound information but figured you could at least use a few hugs. Rebecca HELP!!! My surgical wound is STILL not healing correctly and the while hydro-therapy is starting to work a little bit, the wound is still healing from the top and NOT the bottom.  They are now going to be putting me on this Wound Vacuum machine (tomorrow) which I need to remain connected to at all times. It is "portable" in that it comes with a carrying case with a long over-the-shoulder strap like a small purse but I absolutely abhor the thought of having to give up ONE more thing to this disease!!! Sorry for the rant!! Anyway, does ANYONE have personal experience with this process?  Any ideas of just how long I will have to remain on this device? Thanx, in advance!!! — ~Lisa S. Quinn Criticize the words they’re selling – Think for yourself and feel the walls become like sand beneath your feet….

Response:

Butchers bill for the last 12 months: Severe infection caused acute asthma attack and subsequent heart attack.  - No other known causes available…   (Missed over a month of work)  My daughter chose to live with her dad due to the all around stress of having her mom in and out of the hospital…  One and one half month after returning to work at about 80% effective, I notified my superior that I may need additional leave time prior to the end of 2004 for surgery…  My employment was terminated two weeks later.  Claim with EEOC pending…  Mediation probable so the bastards won’t even have to admit what they did…  Complete end of this career path and over fifteen years of invested time, energy, and effort – not to mention access to affordable insurance and pension options…  My son chose to join my daughter in living with their dad.  A total of FOUR hospital admissions, two surgeries and now this!!  My sex life has already been obliterated to less than a third of where we used to be just one short year ago not to mention that an open fistula limits most activities anyway…  Sometimes I wonder how my husband keeps finding the strength to help me through all of this without loosing it too!  Here I am boo hooing when he is still mourning the death of his parents within the same year…  Oy Vey!  What a mess!!  Oy Vey!!  I want this to stop! ENOUGH already!!  I get it!!  I’m sick, I don’t get to have a life!!  Ok, message received!! Thank you all for listening.  While I know there is nothing that anyone can do, it is nice knowing that there are other people rowing the same boat up the same river…  Wait a minute!!  Which one of you stole my paddle??? — ~Lisa S. Quinn Criticize the words they’re selling – Think for yourself and feel the walls become like sand beneath your feet…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No advice, just hugs. mgbio HELP!!! My surgical wound is STILL not healing correctly and the while hydro-therapy is starting to work a little bit, the wound is still healing from the top and NOT the bottom.  They are now going to be putting me on this Wound Vacuum machine (tomorrow) which I need to remain connected to at all times. It is "portable" in that it comes with a carrying case with a long over-the-shoulder strap like a small purse but I absolutely abhor the thought of having to give up ONE more thing to this disease!!! Sorry for the rant!! Anyway, does ANYONE have personal experience with this process?  Any ideas of just how long I will have to remain on this device? Thanx, in advance!!!

Response:

I had problems years ago. I wasn’t getting well after my op and the redivac jar kept filling up. An Indian doc thought my bladder must have perforated. Eventually they remembered I had been on hydrocortisones and they hadn’t maintained any doseage. Meanwhile I had become delirious. They openend my wound and white pus went everywhere. After a while I got better. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HELP!!! My surgical wound is STILL not healing correctly and the while hydro-therapy is starting to work a little bit, the wound is still healing from the top and NOT the bottom.  They are now going to be putting me on this Wound Vacuum machine (tomorrow) which I need to remain connected to at all times. It is "portable" in that it comes with a carrying case with a long over-the-shoulder strap like a small purse but I absolutely abhor the thought of having to give up ONE more thing to this disease!!! Sorry for the rant!! Anyway, does ANYONE have personal experience with this process?  Any ideas of just how long I will have to remain on this device? Thanx, in advance!!! — ~Lisa S. Quinn Criticize the words they’re selling – Think for yourself and feel the walls become like sand beneath your feet….

Response:

No advice, just hugs. mgbio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HELP!!! My surgical wound is STILL not healing correctly and the while hydro-therapy is starting to work a little bit, the wound is still healing from the top and NOT the bottom.  They are now going to be putting me on this Wound Vacuum machine (tomorrow) which I need to remain connected to at all times. It is "portable" in that it comes with a carrying case with a long over-the-shoulder strap like a small purse but I absolutely abhor the thought of having to give up ONE more thing to this disease!!! Sorry for the rant!! Anyway, does ANYONE have personal experience with this process?  Any ideas of just how long I will have to remain on this device? Thanx, in advance!!!

Response:

HELP!!! My surgical wound is STILL not healing correctly and the while hydro-therapy is starting to work a little bit, the wound is still healing from the top and NOT the bottom.  They are now going to be putting me on this Wound Vacuum machine (tomorrow) which I need to remain connected to at all times. It is "portable" in that it comes with a carrying case with a long over-the-shoulder strap like a small purse but I absolutely abhor the thought of having to give up ONE more thing to this disease!!! Sorry for the rant!! Anyway, does ANYONE have personal experience with this process?  Any ideas of just how long I will have to remain on this device? Thanx, in advance!!! — ~Lisa S. Quinn Criticize the words they’re selling – Think for yourself and feel the walls become like sand beneath your feet….

Response:

Lisa, I’m not much help in this area I think…. Is it a type of drain? Is it a tube that goes into the wound attached to an accordian like vacume? If it is then, from my experience of putting these into people, it stays in place for as long as there is significant drainage of the wound. That could be a day, a week or (unlikely) more. Rant away, I’m recently off a rant myself and have gleened much useful info from Jeff (of Jeff and Mary) as a result. Take care and stay positive… Nina

Response:

(((((((((((Lisa)))))))))))) Can’t offer any wound information but figured you could at least use a few hugs. Rebecca – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HELP!!! My surgical wound is STILL not healing correctly and the while hydro-therapy is starting to work a little bit, the wound is still healing from the top and NOT the bottom.  They are now going to be putting me on this Wound Vacuum machine (tomorrow) which I need to remain connected to at all times. It is "portable" in that it comes with a carrying case with a long over-the-shoulder strap like a small purse but I absolutely abhor the thought of having to give up ONE more thing to this disease!!! Sorry for the rant!! Anyway, does ANYONE have personal experience with this process?  Any ideas of just how long I will have to remain on this device? Thanx, in advance!!! — ~Lisa S. Quinn Criticize the words they’re selling – Think for yourself and feel the walls become like sand beneath your feet….

Response:

Question:

Ally, this is amazing!!  Congrats!!! With hope and heart, Kathleen It was for me a Road To Damascus expericence. At 9 o’clock at night I put out a half-smoked cigarette and said to myself, "I don’t want this!" I was very surprised at my reaction as this had never happened before through 34 years of smoking, even when I’d had the flu or bronchitis. Odder still, I didn’t feel like another one for 2 days. During those 2 days I felt like shit, so perhaps I was suffering from some bug or other, but anyway, I’d failed to stay off the smokes for as long as 2 days in all my previous attempts, so I thought, "what the hell? I’ve got the worst of the nicotine out of my system – it would be silly to smoke again, even if I feel like one now." So I didn’t have any more. I never really decided to stop, it just sort of happened to me. Looking back now over 11 months I’m very surprised. I have no idea what happened. Ally Ten months, four weeks, two days, 2 hours, 12 minutes and 6 seconds. 8066 cigarettes not smoked, saving

Question:

Jeff, I assume that you are considering a guided trip.  I wouldn’t recommend a solo trip of even Class II for someone who hasn’t been in a raft since he was 13.  A guided paddle boat trip of Class III or so should be a lot of fun.  Here are some ideas:     1)    The South Fork of the American is, rightfully so, the  most popular river in the western US.  It is clear, pretty, challenging, and easily accessible.  See http://www.coloma.com/sfam/flow.html and follow the links there.     2)  There are similar trips available on the Merced, Kings, and Kern (and other) rivers.     3)    If you do want to row yourself, consider Cache Creek.  The outfitter there gives you a short lesson and then releases you to run the river by yourself.  It is a relatively safe river and most of the "kamikaze" rafts do make it down with no problems.  Class II+ with one III – See http://www.cachecanyon.com/ Good luck, Randy Hodges

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can someone explain the difference between Class I and Class V rapids. I am trying to plan a rafting trip with some friends and I want something challenging but not unrealistic.  I have only been rafting once before when I was around 13 or 14 years old.  I remember a lot of still water and very few real exciting rapids.  I am a very strong swimmer and fairly athletic, but I do not have a ton of rafting experience.  The trip will be in California.  I would appreciate any comments or suggestions regarding general info or even specific CA rivers that I might look into. Thanks… Jeff Before you buy.

Response:

Others have given you links to descriptions of raft ratings.  I would like to recommend what would be fun and with just enough challange for a "novice" group.  I would recommend class III+/IV- for your group.  One excellent choice would be the South Fork of the American.  If you can avoid the summer crowds, it’s  good, clean class III+ fun.  If you go this time of year you’ll need wetsuits and might have a little higher water, but the lack of summer crowds would make it well worth it.  If you must go in the summer, I would highly recommend trying to go mid-week since the weekends will be bumper-to-bumper rafts.  If you are coming from Southern California, there are sections of the Kern that are class IV- that would be nice.  Also nice class III in CA are the Kings, and a multi-day trip on the Klamath.  Most of the class IV in CA is a significant step up from class III, so I would save that for your group’s second trip. -Lori

Response:

Rebecca posted the URL to the rapid ratings, which you should definitely look at.  If you’ve only been rafting once before, and that some time ago, you might find that they don’t contain enough information for you to make a decision about what’s right for you.  It seems to me that the rapid ratings are more designed to allow you to take a look at a river and assign it a place on the scale, than to give you an idea of what a given river will be like.  That may sound counterintuitive but…well… I’m not expressing this idea very well so I will just stop here!  ;-) Another thing to think about is how much you like adventure: not the abstract idea of adventure, which on my cable box means turning to channel B2 (the travel channel , but the real thing, which means some degree of discomfort, excitement that sometimes thrills and sometimes makes your stomach churn, hard physical effort, etc.  If you can get knocked around, soaked in cold water, and paddle till your arms hurt and still have fun, then maybe you want to go on a more adventurous trip.   Being a strong swimmer helps, in that you will be more comfortable if you’re in the water, but calm-water "strong swimmer" skills just don’t translate to whitewater.  I once heard a youth group leader on a raft trip tell the kids not to worry, she was a lifeguard and if anyone fell in she could dive in and rescue them.  Fortunately, the guide disabused her of that notion before folks actually started falling in!   Physical condition counts: if you’re overtaxed, you won’t have much fun.  You definitely need to consider medical conditions, too — things such as asthma, allergies, etc.  Carry any needed meds, make sure that your guide is aware of your condition and the location of your meds, etc.  Asthma’s particularly tricky because stress and exertion are both triggers — we had a first-time rafter have an acute asthma attack on a raft trip once, brought on by nothing more than exertion and stress.  It happened a long long way from help, and it was A Very Bad Scene Indeed.  And, in general, folks with heart conditions shouldn’t raft, even if you normally do vigorous exercise, because of the likelihood that you’ll be some distance from definitive medical care and the limits on what can be done for you in a wilderness setting.   Where in California are you going to be?  There’s certainly plenty of choices out there! — ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::         "I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart                 for the joys of the multitude"

Response:

Can someone explain the difference between Class I and Class V rapids. I am trying to plan a rafting trip with some friends and I want something challenging but not unrealistic.  I have only been rafting once before when I was around 13 or 14 years old.  I remember a lot of still water and very few real exciting rapids.  I am a very strong swimmer and fairly athletic, but I do not have a ton of rafting experience.  The trip will be in California.  I would appreciate any comments or suggestions regarding general info or even specific CA rivers that I might look into. Thanks… Jeff Before you buy.

Response:

Check out this link to AWA for explanation and lots of good safety info. http://www.awa.org/awa/safety/safety.html#Rating Scale — John Kobak Keel Haulers Canoe Club http://pages.prodigy.net/keelhauler

Response:

Can someone explain the difference between Class I and Class V rapids.

Ok, I’m going to assume you are serious. For the scale, please see: http://www.awa.org/awa/safety/safety.html#Rating Scale The page also includes a link to rivers/rapids which provide an example of each level. You may want to consider a professionally guided trip for your adventure. Rebecca — Some days kayaking is like a dance. Others it is more like a train wreck.

Response:

Question:

Charlie, Can you call your doctor’s office and explain the financial situation and ask him/her to phone in a prescription for generic Prednisone? Tell him you can handle stepping down yourself…which involves carefully counting and then splitting tablets. If you do the step-down yourself and get the generic, the Prednisone is cheap. I recently got 2 1/2 weeks worth, which sounds like a whole lot more than you need, for $8.98 at WalMart. And if you can get the doctor to prescribe over the phone, then there’s no doctor bill. If your doctor feels he/she needs to see you, maybe he/she will agree to wait for the payment. A third alternative is to ask about a clinic in area that charges based on what you can pay. And a fourth alternative is to go to the emergency room at your local public hospital. Explain the situation as you check in and say that you will pay the bill off in installments. When the bill comes in, and it will be very high, send a note back explaining the situation again with a check for whatever you can afford a month…$5 or $15. Then never miss that payment. You want to avoid being turned over to a collection agency, and you want the hospital to know that you are the sort who always pays your bills even if it takes a long time when you are unemployed. I go to the emergency room for prednisone as a last resort because the bill is going to be very high. But I would go to the emergency room for the prednisone if I had no other choice in order to prevent a full-blown attack and that emergency room bill, which would be even higher. If you do go there, ask about any area clinics that offer services based on what you can afford to pay. And be sure to ask for the generic and say you can handle the step-down yourself. Finally, here are a couple of ideas that don’t involve prednisone. 1. If it’s the pollens that are making your asthma worse, avoid them as much as possible. That means spending your time in air conditioned rooms…library, shopping mall, etc., if you don’t have AC at home. 2. When my asthma gets bad, I have to increase my inhaled steriod dose. Have you increased the number of puffs per day? If you have an action plan from your doctor, that should be spelled out. If you don’t have an action plan, call your doctor, explain the situation, and ask if there isn’t any reason why you shouldn’t increase the number of puffs per day. 3. And when you use the inhaled steroid, close your mouth and exhale each puff through your nose. This delivers the steroid in your inhaler to your nasal passage, where it can help the inflammation there. Good luck, Joan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Charles, I’m replying and cross=posting to alt.support.asthma where I believe you might find more assistance. Regards Jean Hi,     I’m wondering whether someone can help me.  I seem to be suffering from an acute asthma attack.  I’m living in Oceanside, California, between San Diego and Los Angeles, where the grasses and trees (to both of which I am highly allergic) are now pollinating.  I started having difficulty breathing about three weeks ago and added Beclovent spray to my daily Albuterol spray. Typically, I use Albuterol about two times per day, but when I have difficulty breathing, I use it more often.  When things get worse, I start using Beclovent and also start spraying my nose.  I am out of steroid spray for the nose, however, and started spraying with over-the-counter NasalCrom. I can’t tell whether the NasalCrom really does any good or not.     Recently, things have gotten worse.  I started coughing, choking, and wheezing at night about five days ago.  As an emergency measure, I bought over-the-counter Primatene Mist, which delivers epinephrine.   That helped a bit, but I was still having trouble breathing, and the coughing, choking, and wheezing continued.  A friend of mine mailed me a canister of Flovent and one of Serevent.  Since I have already been spraying with Beclovent, I thought it would be best not to also use the Flovent (since they are both steroids).  However, I did start using the Serevent.   Things seemed improved for a single day, and then I felt worse again.  Most notably, I have been extremely short of breath and cannot move very quickly, but I’m also still wheezing, coughing, and choking, particularly at night.  I purchased a bottle of o-t-c ephedrine pills and yesterday started taking a low dose of the ephedrine pills.   I didn’t notice any improvement.    What most worries me is the possibility of a more severe attack soon.  I once, several years ago, was unable to get out of bed for a week and it was only the intervention of Primatene that enabled me to head to a hospital (where I was given a shot of something, maybe epinephrine).   When I have had such severe allergy/asthma attacks in the past, I have usually been prescribed Prednisone for short-term use, 7 pills the first day, 6 the second, and so on until the seventh day when I took only 1.  This has always worked for me in the past.  I realize I should see an allergist immediately but I am extremely poor at the moment and am unemployed.  Therefore, I am not able to pay what a doctor would normally charge, not to mention the expensive prescriptions.  (The friend who mailed me the Serevent and Flovent was kind enough to pay for them herself.)     I would appreciate any helpful suggestions any of you can provide.  I am now hoping to find some inexpensive way to get Prednisone for short-term use.  Based on my earlier experience, this seems like the next step I should take.     Thank you in advance for any helpful suggestions. Charlie Silver

Response:

—cut—- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I am not able to get any steroidal nasal sprays at the present time, but I think if I could stop my nose from filling up, my asthma wouldn’t be so bad (which Ellis also says).  For me, as far as I can tell, the NasalCrom simply doesn’t work, or at least not very well.  I’ve been taking it over 3 weeks and can’t detect much improvement.  I am mulling over the possibility of going to Tijuana to pick up some of these medications, particularly a steroidal nasal spray, which I do not have a prescription for.     I had previously used Becanase AQ, and it seemed to work well.  Is there something more recent that seems better?  Is it possible for me to get these kinds of medicines  in a Mexican pharmacy without a prescription?  And, could this cause me trouble crossing back over the border Charlie

Regarding steroid nasal sprays–they use the same steroids as used in the oral asthma inhalers: Beconase is beclomethasone, an older drug [Beclovent inhaler] Vancenase is also beclomethasone, double strength [Vanceril inhaler] Rhinocort is budesonide [same drug as Pulmicort inhaler] Flonase is fluticasone [same drug as Flovent inhaler] Nasonex is mometasone [new asthma inhaler being tested] Also the antileukotriene pill Singulair helps not only asthma but hay fever [rhinitis] in about 2/3 who try it. Washing the nostrils with salt water [saline nasal irrigation] can also help control rhinitis. There’s always antihistamines like Chlortrimeton [chlorpheniramine] and decongestants like Sudafed [pseudoephedrine], for rhinitis. Regarding buying drugs in Mexico, see: http://www.customs.ustreas.gov/travel/med.htm Importation of Prescription Medications/Drugs "A new bill was recently passed by Congress that amends a portion  of the Controlled Substances Act (21USC956(a)). This amendment  allows a United States resident to import up to 50 dosage units  of a controlled medication without a valid prescription at  an international land border. These medications must be declared  upon arrival, be for your own personal use and in their original  container. However, travelers should be aware that drug products  which are not approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration may not be acceptable for such importation. FDA  warns that such drugs are often of unknown quality and discourages buying drugs sold in foreign countries. Please go to http://www.fda.gov/ora/import/purchasing_medications.htm for further information. Ellis

Response:

In addition to asthma, I have migraines. My latest newsletter from the National Headache Foundation discusses using 400 to 600 mg of magnesium to help prevent migraines. It warned that the side effects of such a dose would be diarrhea and cramping. Combining the magnesium with calcium would help prevent the unpleasant side effects. I take a supplement that combines magnesium, calcium, and zinc, which is supposed to help build bones, and the magnesium dose is 133 mg. I just checked, and the article I’m referring to hasn’t been posted online and may never be. The newsletter is a paid subscription, so they only post some of the articles, but if anyone wants to keep an eye out, the address is: http://www.headaches.org/headlines.html Joan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have read that mega doses of magnesium will give relief for acute attacks. I think it is about 8 to 12 tabs..I am not sure of exact dosages.Magnesium is supposed to be the best muscle relaxer in the world. I don’t think it can harm you…but of course so many people are not knowledgeable about vitamins and minerals and most doctors simply don’t know.I take every vitamin and mineral…even copper to improve vascularity of arteries etc. and increase collagen in the body. Intravenous magnesium was investigated as a bronchodilator in an ER setting where it showed some promise but was not considered to be superior to existing practice. Oral magnesium supplements have been test in clinical trials and found to be useless for the treatment of asthma. There is no place for the hyphen in our citizenship… We are a nation, not a hodge-podge of foreign nationalities. We are a people, and not a polyglot boarding house.  - Theodore Roosevelt

Response:

I have read that mega doses of magnesium will give relief for acute attacks. I think it is about 8 to 12 tabs..I am not sure of exact dosages.Magnesium is supposed to be the best muscle relaxer in the world. I don’t think it can harm you…but of course so many people are not knowledgeable about vitamins and minerals and most doctors simply don’t know.I take every vitamin and mineral…even copper to improve vascularity of arteries etc. and increase collagen in the body. Copper can reduce chances of a stroke or aneurysm but only need a tiny amount and will destroy vit C so take at different times.Just thought I’d throw in a helpful hint.It should increase the flexibility of the bronchial tubes and ability of alveoli in the lungs to better the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide. I would think so unless the alveoli are destoyed as a result of emphysema. A great book is by a lady..Maureen Kennedy Salaman… seen on Christian tv. Call the book store!!! However, I feel if you educate yourself, that you can get what you need without buying her products.They are too expensive..Good Luck

Response:

I have read that mega doses of magnesium will give relief for acute attacks. I think it is about 8 to 12 tabs..I am not sure of exact dosages.Magnesium is supposed to be the best muscle relaxer in the world. I don’t think it can harm you…but of course so many people are not knowledgeable about vitamins and minerals and most doctors simply don’t know.I take every vitamin and mineral…even copper to improve vascularity of arteries etc. and increase collagen in the body.

Intravenous magnesium was investigated as a bronchodilator in an ER setting where it showed some promise but was not considered to be superior to existing practice. Oral magnesium supplements have been test in clinical trials and found to be useless for the treatment of asthma. There is no place for the hyphen in our citizenship… We are a nation, not a hodge-podge of foreign nationalities. We are a people, and not a polyglot boarding house.  - Theodore Roosevelt

Response:

So sorry to hear you are having such a tough time.An acute attack is exactly what it indicates. Therefore, you need immediate attention. However, there are different stages of asthma and what may not work for you at one time may work later.Asthma is so difficult to manage and most of all to be able to recognize the different stages and know what to do. I give myself injections of epinephrine for acute attacks only after my proventil soulution treatments don’t help. Do you have a machine?…Social Services will buy you one…or should!!! No one with asthma should suffer. It makes me cringe to think someone could be so sick with no relief when it’s out there. I worked as a volunteer at a Medical Ministry where we treat and give free meds…no costs at all..Call your local Social Services Dept and keep calling.They will eventually get you help, surely..Prednisone is only pennies per tablet but the doc’s visit is what cost so much.Stress is a major factor precipitating an attack. Learn to do stretches and develop a consistent routine ( even when you are not having trouble breathing ) once you are able to lie down placing a pillow under your back will relax the muscles that affect breathing etc.  I am a Certified Massage Therapist and have found getting massages myself can totally relieve a bad attack once I can relax in order to lie flat enough. It takes time. I do wish you the very best. It really saddens me to know someone has to suffer. I’ve been there many times myself.Take care of yourself speak up. It’s ok to ask for help!!!  

Response:

I think Charlie should stop self-medicating and get to a doctor.  He’s abusing the albuterol and that may actually be causing some of his problems. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Charles, I’m replying and cross=posting to alt.support.asthma where I believe you might find more assistance. Regards Jean Hi,     I’m wondering whether someone can help me.  I seem to be suffering from an acute asthma attack.  I’m living in Oceanside, California, between San Diego and Los Angeles, where the grasses and trees (to both of which I am highly allergic) are now pollinating.  I started having difficulty breathing about three weeks ago and added Beclovent spray to my daily Albuterol spray. Typically, I use Albuterol about two times per day, but when I have difficulty breathing, I use it more often.  When things get worse, I start using Beclovent and also start spraying my nose.  I am out of steroid spray for the nose, however, and started spraying with over-the-counter NasalCrom. I can’t tell whether the NasalCrom really does any good or not.     Recently, things have gotten worse.  I started coughing, choking, and wheezing at night about five days ago.  As an emergency measure, I bought over-the-counter Primatene Mist, which delivers epinephrine.   That helped a bit, but I was still having trouble breathing, and the coughing, choking, and wheezing continued.  A friend of mine mailed me a canister of Flovent and one of Serevent.  Since I have already been spraying with Beclovent, I thought it would be best not to also use the Flovent (since they are both steroids).  However, I did start using the Serevent.   Things seemed improved for a single day, and then I felt worse again.  Most notably, I have been extremely short of breath and cannot move very quickly, but I’m also still wheezing, coughing, and choking, particularly at night.  I purchased a bottle of o-t-c ephedrine pills and yesterday started taking a low dose of the ephedrine pills.   I didn’t notice any improvement.    What most worries me is the possibility of a more severe attack soon.  I once, several years ago, was unable to get out of bed for a week and it was only the intervention of Primatene that enabled me to head to a hospital (where I was given a shot of something, maybe epinephrine).   When I have had such severe allergy/asthma attacks in the past, I have usually been prescribed Prednisone for short-term use, 7 pills the first day, 6 the second, and so on until the seventh day when I took only 1.  This has always worked for me in the past.  I realize I should see an allergist immediately but I am extremely poor at the moment and am unemployed.  Therefore, I am not able to pay what a doctor would normally charge, not to mention the expensive prescriptions.  (The friend who mailed me the Serevent and Flovent was kind enough to pay for them herself.)     I would appreciate any helpful suggestions any of you can provide.  I am now hoping to find some inexpensive way to get Prednisone for short-term use.  Based on my earlier experience, this seems like the next step I should take.     Thank you in advance for any helpful suggestions. Charlie Silver

Response:

Charles, I’m replying and cross=posting to alt.support.asthma where I believe you might find more assistance. Regards Jean

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi,     I’m wondering whether someone can help me.  I seem to be suffering from an acute asthma attack.  I’m living in Oceanside, California, between San Diego and Los Angeles, where the grasses and trees (to both of which I am highly allergic) are now pollinating.  I started having difficulty breathing about three weeks ago and added Beclovent spray to my daily Albuterol spray. Typically, I use Albuterol about two times per day, but when I have difficulty breathing, I use it more often.  When things get worse, I start using Beclovent and also start spraying my nose.  I am out of steroid spray for the nose, however, and started spraying with over-the-counter NasalCrom. I can’t tell whether the NasalCrom really does any good or not.     Recently, things have gotten worse.  I started coughing, choking, and wheezing at night about five days ago.  As an emergency measure, I bought over-the-counter Primatene Mist, which delivers epinephrine.   That helped a bit, but I was still having trouble breathing, and the coughing, choking, and wheezing continued.  A friend of mine mailed me a canister of Flovent and one of Serevent.  Since I have already been spraying with Beclovent, I thought it would be best not to also use the Flovent (since they are both steroids).  However, I did start using the Serevent.   Things seemed improved for a single day, and then I felt worse again.  Most notably, I have been extremely short of breath and cannot move very quickly, but I’m also still wheezing, coughing, and choking, particularly at night.  I purchased a bottle of o-t-c ephedrine pills and yesterday started taking a low dose of the ephedrine pills.   I didn’t notice any improvement.    What most worries me is the possibility of a more severe attack soon.  I once, several years ago, was unable to get out of bed for a week and it was only the intervention of Primatene that enabled me to head to a hospital (where I was given a shot of something, maybe epinephrine).   When I have had such severe allergy/asthma attacks in the past, I have usually been prescribed Prednisone for short-term use, 7 pills the first day, 6 the second, and so on until the seventh day when I took only 1.  This has always worked for me in the past.  I realize I should see an allergist immediately but I am extremely poor at the moment and am unemployed.  Therefore, I am not able to pay what a doctor would normally charge, not to mention the expensive prescriptions.  (The friend who mailed me the Serevent and Flovent was kind enough to pay for them herself.)     I would appreciate any helpful suggestions any of you can provide.  I am now hoping to find some inexpensive way to get Prednisone for short-term use.  Based on my earlier experience, this seems like the next step I should take.     Thank you in advance for any helpful suggestions. Charlie Silver

Response:

    First, I want to thank everyone who answered.  It feels good to know I’m not alone. What I’m saying will duplicate to an extent Ellis’s note below:     Yesterday I went to a county ER, since the offered the best possibility of good help and possibly no cost (This will have to be determined by the CMS application I filled out, but I’m optimistic I won’t have to pay much, if anything.)  At the ER room, the doctor looked into my throat and listened to my breathing with his stethoscope.  He had me take three predisone tablets (20 mg each = 60mg), and attached a breathing mask connected to a hose that delivered Albuterol into my lungs for over ten minutes.     He referred me to a pulmonologist, but was unsure whether he’ll see me if I don’t have insurance and can’t pay.  He also prescribed four days of predisone, 40mg / day. I have also started taking the Flovent (220 mcg) twice a day and am discontinuing the Beclovent, for the reasons Ellis mentioned. I am also using the Serevent twice a day as well, and am keeping the Albuterol just for emergencies.  Out of fear, I’m still keeping the Primatene inhaler (epinephrine) close, but I hope I never have to use it.     I’ll do everything I can *not* to have to take the ephedrine pills.  I can’t tolerate Theophylline well, since I have some stomach problems too.     I am not able to get any steroidal nasal sprays at the present time, but I think if I could stop my nose from filling up, my asthma wouldn’t be so bad (which Ellis also says).  For me, as far as I can tell, the NasalCrom simply doesn’t work, or at least not very well.  I’ve been taking it over 3 weeks and can’t detect much improvement.  I am mulling over the possibility of going to Tijuana to pick up some of these medications, particularly a steroidal nasal spray, which I do not have a prescription for.     I had previously used Becanase AQ, and it seemed to work well.  Is there something more recent that seems better?  Is it possible for me to get these kinds of medicines  in a Mexican pharmacy without a prescription?  And, could this cause me trouble crossing back over the border     Thank you all very much again. Charlie Charles, I’m replying and cross=posting to alt.support.asthma where I believe you might find more assistance. Regards   Jean     I’m wondering whether someone can help me.  I seem to be suffering from an acute asthma attack.  I’m living in Oceanside,

California, between San Diego and Los Angeles, where the grasses and trees (to both of which I am highly allergic) are now pollinating.  I started having

difficulty breathing about three weeks ago and added Beclovent spray to my daily Albuterol spray. Typically, I use Albuterol about two times per day, but when I have difficulty breathing, I use it more often.  When things get worse, I start using Beclovent and also start spraying my nose.  I am out of steroid spray for the nose, however, and started spraying with

over-the-counter NasalCrom. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t tell whether the NasalCrom really does any good or not.     Recently, things have gotten worse.  I started coughing, choking, and wheezing at night about five days ago.  As an emergency measure, I bought over-the-counter Primatene Mist, which delivers epinephrine. That helped a bit, but I was still having trouble breathing, and the coughing, choking, and wheezing continued.  A friend of mine mailed me a canister of Flovent and one of Serevent.  Since I have already been spraying with Beclovent, I thought it would be best not to also use the Flovent (since they are both steroids).  However, I did start using the Serevent. Things seemed improved for a single day, and then I felt worse again. Most notably, I have been extremely short of breath and cannot move very quickly, but I’m also still wheezing, coughing, and choking, particularly at night.  I purchased a bottle of o-t-c ephedrine pills and yesterday started taking a low dose of the ephedrine pills.   I didn’t notice any improvement. Flovent is a new steroid asthma inhaler; it comes in 3 strengths [44, 110, 220 mcg/puff of fluticasone] and is much more effective than Beclovent [around 42 mcg/puff of beclomethasone]. Bottom line, use the Flovent for better control of the asthma. Of course what you should really do is see a doctor, even if you have to go to the county hospital ER. There are programs for those who can’t afford drugs; public assistance, and drug companies have programs for drugs for those who can’t afford them. Over the counter drugs like ephedrine and Primatene Mist are not recommended due to side effects. Generic albuterol inhaler can be used for short acting relief but steroid inhalers are needed for long term preventin. The other inexpensive asthma drug is sustained release theophlline; however OTC drugs containing theophylline now require a prescription. Prednisone is cheap and effective at controlling asthma attacks. It’s safe for burst doses of 40-60 mg/day for 3-10 days. Unfortunately the side effects can be severe for long term use [osteoporosis, high blood pressure, glaucoma, etc] see rxlist.com It is important to breathe thru the nose, and control the hay fever. Nasalcrom helps but must be used 2 or 3 times/day and may take a couple of weeks to take full effect. The steroid nasal sprays are more powerful. Ellis    What most worries me is the possibility of a more severe attack soon.  I once, several years ago, was unable to get out of bed for a week and it was only the intervention of Primatene that enabled me to head to a hospital (where I was given a shot of something, maybe epinephrine). When I have had such severe allergy/asthma attacks in the past, I have usually been prescribed Prednisone for short-term use, 7 pills the first day, 6 the second, and so on until the seventh day when I took only 1. This has always worked for me in the past.  I realize I should see an

allergist immediately but I am extremely poor at the moment and am unemployed. Therefore, I am not able to pay what a doctor would normally charge, not to mention the expensive prescriptions.  (The friend who mailed me the

Serevent and Flovent – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – was kind enough to pay for them herself.)     I would appreciate any helpful suggestions any of you can provide.  I am now hoping to find some inexpensive way to get Prednisone for short-term use.  Based on my earlier experience, this seems like the next step I should take.     Thank you in advance for any helpful suggestions. Charlie Silver

Response:

Charles, I’m replying and cross=posting to alt.support.asthma where

 I believe you might find more assistance. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regards   Jean     I’m wondering whether someone can help me.  I seem to be suffering from an acute asthma attack.  I’m living in Oceanside, California, between San Diego and Los Angeles, where the grasses and trees (to both of which I am highly allergic) are now pollinating.  I started having difficulty breathing about three weeks ago and added Beclovent spray to my daily Albuterol spray. Typically, I use Albuterol about two times per day, but when I have difficulty breathing, I use it more often.  When things get worse, I start using Beclovent and also start spraying my nose.  I am out of steroid spray for the nose, however, and started spraying with over-the-counter NasalCrom. I can’t tell whether the NasalCrom really does any good or not.     Recently, things have gotten worse.  I started coughing, choking, and wheezing at night about five days ago.  As an emergency measure, I bought over-the-counter Primatene Mist, which delivers epinephrine.   That helped a bit, but I was still having trouble breathing, and the coughing, choking, and wheezing continued.  A friend of mine mailed me a canister of Flovent and one of Serevent.  Since I have already been spraying with Beclovent, I thought it would be best not to also use the Flovent (since they are both steroids).  However, I did start using the Serevent.   Things seemed improved for a single day, and then I felt worse again.  Most notably, I have been extremely short of breath and cannot move very quickly, but I’m also still wheezing, coughing, and choking, particularly at night.  I purchased a bottle of o-t-c ephedrine pills and yesterday started taking a low dose of the ephedrine pills.   I didn’t notice any improvement.

Flovent is a new steroid asthma inhaler; it comes in 3 strengths  [44, 110, 220 mcg/puff of fluticasone] and is much more effective  than Beclovent [around 42 mcg/puff of beclomethasone]. Bottom line,  use the Flovent for better control of the asthma. Of course what you should really do is see a doctor, even if you have to go to the county hospital ER. There are programs for those who can’t afford drugs; public assistance, and drug companies have programs for drugs for those who can’t afford them. Over the counter drugs like ephedrine and Primatene Mist are not recommended due to side effects. Generic albuterol inhaler can be used for short acting relief but steroid inhalers are needed for long term preventin. The other inexpensive asthma drug is sustained release theophlline; however OTC drugs containing theophylline now require a prescription. Prednisone is cheap and effective at controlling asthma attacks. It’s safe for burst doses of 40-60 mg/day for 3-10 days. Unfortunately the side effects can be severe for long term use [osteoporosis, high blood pressure, glaucoma, etc] see rxlist.com It is important to breathe thru the nose, and control the hay fever. Nasalcrom helps but must be used 2 or 3 times/day and may take a couple of weeks to take full effect. The steroid nasal sprays are more powerful. Ellis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    What most worries me is the possibility of a more severe attack soon.  I once, several years ago, was unable to get out of bed for a week and it was only the intervention of Primatene that enabled me to head to a hospital (where I was given a shot of something, maybe epinephrine).   When I have had such severe allergy/asthma attacks in the past, I have usually been prescribed Prednisone for short-term use, 7 pills the first day, 6 the second, and so on until the seventh day when I took only 1.  This has always worked for me in the past.  I realize I should see an allergist immediately but I am extremely poor at the moment and am unemployed.  Therefore, I am not able to pay what a doctor would normally charge, not to mention the expensive prescriptions.  (The friend who mailed me the Serevent and Flovent was kind enough to pay for them herself.)     I would appreciate any helpful suggestions any of you can provide.  I am now hoping to find some inexpensive way to get Prednisone for short-term use.  Based on my earlier experience, this seems like the next step I should take.     Thank you in advance for any helpful suggestions. Charlie Silver

Response:

Go to the emergency room.   They will treat you right away.  Then go see a doctor ASAP – either an allergist or a pulmonologist.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Charles, I’m replying and cross=posting to alt.support.asthma where I believe you might find more assistance. Regards Jean Hi,     I’m wondering whether someone can help me.  I seem to be suffering from an acute asthma attack.  I’m living in Oceanside, California, between San Diego and Los Angeles, where the grasses and trees (to both of which I am highly allergic) are now pollinating.  I started having difficulty breathing about three weeks ago and added Beclovent spray to my daily Albuterol spray. Typically, I use Albuterol about two times per day, but when I have difficulty breathing, I use it more often.  When things get worse, I start using Beclovent and also start spraying my nose.  I am out of steroid spray for the nose, however, and started spraying with over-the-counter NasalCrom. I can’t tell whether the NasalCrom really does any good or not.     Recently, things have gotten worse.  I started coughing, choking, and wheezing at night about five days ago.  As an emergency measure, I bought over-the-counter Primatene Mist, which delivers epinephrine.   That helped a bit, but I was still having trouble breathing, and the coughing, choking, and wheezing continued.  A friend of mine mailed me a canister of Flovent and one of Serevent.  Since I have already been spraying with Beclovent, I thought it would be best not to also use the Flovent (since they are both steroids).  However, I did start using the Serevent.   Things seemed improved for a single day, and then I felt worse again.  Most notably, I have been extremely short of breath and cannot move very quickly, but I’m also still wheezing, coughing, and choking, particularly at night.  I purchased a bottle of o-t-c ephedrine pills and yesterday started taking a low dose of the ephedrine pills.   I didn’t notice any improvement.    What most worries me is the possibility of a more severe attack soon. I once, several years ago, was unable to get out of bed for a week and it was only the intervention of Primatene that enabled me to head to a hospital (where I was given a shot of something, maybe epinephrine).   When I have had such severe allergy/asthma attacks in the past, I have usually been prescribed Prednisone for short-term use, 7 pills the first day, 6 the second, and so on until the seventh day when I took only 1.  This has always worked for me in the past.  I realize I should see an allergist immediately but I am extremely poor at the moment and am unemployed.  Therefore, I am not able to pay what a doctor would normally charge, not to mention the expensive prescriptions.  (The friend who mailed me the Serevent and Flovent was kind enough to pay for them herself.)     I would appreciate any helpful suggestions any of you can provide. I am now hoping to find some inexpensive way to get Prednisone for short-term use.  Based on my earlier experience, this seems like the next step I should take.     Thank you in advance for any helpful suggestions. Charlie Silver

Response:

Question:

Just lost 18 year old male asthma patient in toronto ont. canada…..had a asthma attack   45 minutes later a massive heart attack. 18 and dead   yes asthma can trigger a full cardiac arrest  

Response:

Just lost 18 year old male asthma patient in toronto ont. canada…..had a asthma attack   45 minutes later a massive heart attack. 18 and dead   yes asthma can trigger a full cardiac arrest  

Has an autopsy been done to confirm this?  Are you sure there wasn’t undiagnosed heart disease or rythym problems to begin with?  He must have been severely under-treated and uneducated about his condition to come to this end. Sorry to hear about this.

Response:

The press has stated that he had a rather long ambulance ride. The closest hospital was on emergency diversion and he was taken to the next closest hospital DOA. A coroners investigation is underway and it is not useful to speculate about his untimely death until the report is published. my condolences to his family Deol says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Just lost 18 year old male asthma patient in toronto ont. canada…..had a asthma attack   45 minutes later a massive heart attack. 18 and dead   yes asthma can trigger a full cardiac arrest   Has an autopsy been done to confirm this?  Are you sure there wasn’t undiagnosed heart disease or rythym problems to begin with?  He must have been severely under-treated and uneducated about his condition to come to this end. Sorry to hear about this.

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How does asthma affect the heart. It would appear to me that the increased effort in breathing would effect the blood pressure aand the heart. I have not seen this discussed on the newsgroup. Thanks

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All people, including asthmatics should exercise and watch their weight. Generally heart/circulatory problems occur in severe asthma attacks. They are physiologic responses to low oxygen, high carbon dioxide and an increased acid load seen in respiratory failure. The right ventrical is the main area of concern as the raised pulmonary blood pressure increases the right ventricular afterload (work requirement ) and the ventrical has to pump harder and uses more oxygen than normal. There is very limited data using direct measurement of the hemodynamic changes seen during an acute asthma attack, however the physiology is somewhat predicatable by extrapolating knowledge of the heart in other pulmonary diseases such as fibrosis. There is an increasing prevalence of geriatric asthma patients who often have co-existing cardiac problems and both the asthma and heart disease need to be managed carefully. example – no beta blockers for hypertension. The long term effects of oral steroids such as prednisone can affect or in some cases cause systemic hypertension in patients. hope this helps Deol says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -How does asthma affect the heart. It would appear to me that the increased effort in breathing would effect the blood pressure aand the heart. I have not seen this discussed on the newsgroup. Thanks

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I do not know the ins and outs of this but a hundred years ago, people who did not die of asthma outright, would get cor pulmonale (did I spell that right?) a condition in which the heart is enlarged due to the continuing strain to pump enough underoxygenated blood around the body. Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How does asthma affect the heart. It would appear to me that the increased effort in breathing would effect the blood pressure aand the heart. I have not seen this discussed on the newsgroup. Thanks

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i would strongly agree that asthma does increase your heart rate.  When I get into an attack, I find my heart rate approaching 160 sometimes, and I think it is just becuase of the attack.  I think fast breathing does lead to a fast heart rate.  A normal heart rate is between 60 -90 beats per minute. My doctor actually gives me a little lee way, and does not freak until I cross 125 Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How does asthma affect the heart. It would appear to me that the increased effort in breathing would effect the blood pressure aand the heart. I have not seen this discussed on the newsgroup. Thanks

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My doctor said that the national Heart Institute has recommended that if the difference between the lower and the upper reading exceeds 55 or more that the patient should be put on blood pressure medication. This was last Thursday when I had a visit with my pulmologist. Has anyone heard of these new guidelines? Thanks

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A study showed that the pulse pressure (difference between systolic and diastolic blood pressure), when elevated, is an independent risk factor for future adverse cardiac events. I don’t remember that there’s any evidence that using medications to change this value will alter the future outcome but until a study is done most would probably think it prudent to try to reduce the pulse pressure. My doctor said that the national Heart Institute has recommended that if the difference between the lower and the upper reading exceeds 55 or more that the patient should be put on blood pressure medication. This was last Thursday when I had a visit with my pulmologist. Has anyone heard of these new guidelines? Thanks

– Don Elton Columbia, SC http://www.midcarolina.org

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Question:

Hi Tee, Yes, you *can do it! I should know – three times I’ve quit for periods exceeding 4 years – and I’ll do it again (sometime). Your dad was right – one day at a time – and watch the stress level… In article <akmd4.867$i9.2…@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Tee" <redlady…@dynasty.net> wrote:

| Okay… I decided to give it up… quit smoking… this is day one.. and | already I’m climbing the walls! HELP!  SUPPORT!  Cig???  :o) | | But I’m determined.. and I’m ready… I think.. (I just LOVE being so | decisive!!) | | Anyway… just wanted my friends to know that I’m gonna attempt this.. so if | I get grouchy.. you will know why!  :o) — Take care James (#11)

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>>Yes, you *can do it! I should know – three times I’ve quit for periods

exceeding 4 years – and I’ll do it again (sometime). Your dad was right – one day at a time – and watch the stress level…>> Hi James and Tee… I’m with you, James…  one day…again…  It is written in most smoking cessation programs that *everyone who eventually stops smoking (which usually means about 85-90%) made *several attempts before they were successful. There is no shame in trying and not succeeding.  When the time is right (and it sounds as though it may be for you, Tee), you WILL succeed!! I wish you all the best with it… Judith ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "If we knew what we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?"                                             —Albert Einstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Thanks for the support everyone!  Day 3 and still counting!  Yes I’m using the patch.. but OH MY it has messed with my sleep and when I do sleep… I have VERY vivid dreams… But all in all I am doing……. okay……. well I haven’t killed anyone yet… so I guess that I’m doing great! LOL It is tough.. but I’m also determined.  My dad quit after 30+ years of smoking (sometimes 3 packs a day).. he did it cold turkey.. I’m not that tough! LOL  But he told me.. "hey, if you slip, you try again.."  And he also told me.. "I didn’t quit, I just choose not to smoke today!"  So, today (so far) is another day that I have chosen not to smoke!  :o) I have been smoking for 26 year (DAMN!! I just added that up and I was amazed!  I’ve never done ANYTHING for 26 years! LOL) And it’s like letting go of a good friend!  I enjoy it.. but I realize that it’s not good for me… and my son is "at that age" where he is on my a** all the time about it. I have saved all of your wonderful advice and I read it often.. helps knowing there are others that have been through this… and lived! LOL  I am gonna live… right!! ) Thanks again for all the support here and via personal emails. The computer is a smoking trigger for me.. so I’ve been *TRYING* to stay away from it some… Love to all!! Hugs & Prayers, Tee — MS MounTain http://www.dsgnworks.com/~msmt/ RedLady’s Home http://www.angelfire.com/ky/redlady/index.html "Tee" <redlady…@dynasty.net> wrote in message

news:akmd4.867$i9.2472@newsfeed.slurp.net… | Okay… I decided to give it up… quit smoking… this is day one.. and | already I’m climbing the walls! HELP!  SUPPORT!  Cig???  :o) | | But I’m determined.. and I’m ready… I think.. (I just LOVE being so | decisive!!) | | Anyway… just wanted my friends to know that I’m gonna attempt this.. so if | I get grouchy.. you will know why!  :o) | | Hugs & Prayers, | | Tee | | — | | MS MounTain | http://www.dsgnworks.com/~msmt/ | | RedLady’s Home | http://www.angelfire.com/ky/redlady/index.html | | | | | |

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In article <387658D6.293C3…@srv.net>, Warren & Paula Jo Merrill <w…@srv.net> writes: >Good luck Tee.  My father quit this summer after 50 years of smoking.  He >really >had no choice, he is now on O2 and will explode in a ball of fire if he >lights >up : )  The patches seemed to help him.

My ex is on oxygen 100% of the time (even wears a little backpak when he goes out) but he STILL SMOKES. Not blown up yet Kathi

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good luck tee. it’s a bitch and a half, but it is only really bad for about seven  days. once you get through that it gets easier. drink lots of water. take lots of vitamin c. and sleep a lot. (valium helped me tremendously). go for walks if you can (i couldnt at first when i quit. was having a flare that included excruciating back spasms that made walking next to impossible.) suck on a pen barrel. and tootsie pops. eat sunflower seeds (the oils are good for our brains). drink even more water. promise yourself you will put your cigs money in jar every day and at the end of the year you can take a great trip with the saved money. (it adds up rapido!) good luck, amiga. we are all pulling for you here. Be Well, Lisa to send email, remove 123 from my address. "Please explain to me the scientific nature of ‘The Whammy’" – Scully "The Daily News asks her for the dope. She says, ‘Man, the dope’s that there’s still hope.’"- Springsteen

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Good for you Tee!  Give it your best, that’s all you can do. I woke up at 5:30 this morning having an acute asthma attack.  Both of the cats were sleeping with me, which I’m allergic to, but take meds for.  I was wheezing so loud.  It took me about an hour just to get my breathing back to normal.  As I laid in bed, I swore to myself that I was gunna quit smoking. That lasted until 10:100 when I had my first cup of tea.  I’m going to cut down for now. Anyhow, good luck Tee! Rachelle Tee <redlady…@dynasty.net> wrote in message

news:akmd4.867$i9.2472@newsfeed.slurp.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Okay… I decided to give it up… quit smoking… this is day one.. and > already I’m climbing the walls! HELP!  SUPPORT!  Cig???  :o) > But I’m determined.. and I’m ready… I think.. (I just LOVE being so > decisive!!) > Anyway… just wanted my friends to know that I’m gonna attempt this.. so if > I get grouchy.. you will know why!  :o) > Hugs & Prayers, > Tee > — > MS MounTain > http://www.dsgnworks.com/~msmt/ > RedLady’s Home > http://www.angelfire.com/ky/redlady/index.html

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Rachelle~ Have you tried the Nicoderm patch system?  I’m quitting and using it. It can be costly but it really seems to help me not smoke.  The patches are step down; 2 weeks at one level, another 2 weeks at the next and so on. Good luck! JoRee

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Hello Tee, Just a note to wish you Good Luck on quitting smoking. I quit in ‘83.  Had a serious case of bronchoditis(sp) and every time I would light up a cig I would nearly choke to death!!  So I continued to carry the cigs with me – two weeks later I was still carrying them.  Then, I said, well, I’ve gone a month without smoking, I’ll just wait until I *really* need it.  I kept putting off smoking and before I knew it another month had gone by.  I know this sounds really corney but it did work for me. I hope it goes well for you, I’ll be pulling for you! Robbie C.

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Dear Tee Good Luck –quitting smoking!!!   I know it is so hard right now for you…..but if you really set your mind to it you’ll do just fine….. I quit 8 years ago—-(I smoked for 22 years) I became allergic to an antibiotic I was taking for a UTI—-I ended up in CCU because they thought I had major damage to my lungs & heart just from that stupid Antibiotic……Well—thats when I quit smoking—-I went on the "Patch" which helped me alot–along with some Ativans to help me sleep……..I surprised everyone when I quit—they thought I would be the last person in the world to quit smoking……… Tee—you become a different person & you’ll love the way you feel—a Stronger,  Healthier & Happier person when you quit!!!—- Good Luck –Hang in there!!!   Withdrawling from ciggies has to be one of the hardest things in the world to do—-so don’t get discouraged…The whole N/G is behind you—–Kristne

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On Sat, 8 Jan 2000 06:40:10 GMT, you wrote: >good luck tee. it’s a bitch and a half, but it is only really bad for = about >seven  days. once you get through that it gets easier.

Well, It’s been 5 months or there abouts for me. Yea!!!!!! I am using Nicotrol Inhaler and so far, (knock wood) no heavy  = exacerbation. ((((hugs)))))))) http://www.webzone.net/bj

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Jack, Thanks for pointing out about the year 2001 date.  I don’t have a clue how that happened.. but it sure has messed up the mail I send out that I save.. I would never have noticed it, if you had not pointed it out! Hugs & Prayers, Tee — MS MounTain http://www.dsgnworks.com/~msmt/ RedLady’s Home http://www.angelfire.com/ky/redlady/index.html "Jack" <jtravel…@my-deja.com> wrote in message

news:856jrt$fi$1@nnrp1.deja.com… | From ‘day eight’(me) to ‘day one’(you)…..you can do it Tee, hang in | there and good luck!!!! | Just an observation, but your post is dated january 7, 2001 and because | I sort the list by date, it remains at the top of the list. I guess it | will stay there at the top until 2001!!!. don’t know where the problem | is but check the date on your computer. | Best Wishes Jack | | > Tee wrote:

| > | > > Okay… I decided to give it up… quit smoking… this is day one.. | and | > > already I’m climbing the walls! HELP!  SUPPORT!  Cig???  :o) | > > | > > But I’m determined.. and I’m ready… I think.. (I just LOVE being | so | > > decisive!!) | > > | > > Anyway… just wanted my friends to know that I’m gonna attempt | this.. so if | > > I get grouchy.. you will know why!  :o) | > > | > > Hugs & Prayers, | > > | > > Tee | > > | > > — | > > | > > MS MounTain | > > http://www.dsgnworks.com/~msmt/ | > > | > > RedLady’s Home | > > http://www.angelfire.com/ky/redlady/index.html | > | > | | | Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ | Before you buy.

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From ‘day eight’(me) to ‘day one’(you)…..you can do it Tee, hang in there and good luck!!!! Just an observation, but your post is dated january 7, 2001 and because I sort the list by date, it remains at the top of the list. I guess it will stay there at the top until 2001!!!. don’t know where the problem is but check the date on your computer. Best Wishes Jack – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tee wrote: > > Okay… I decided to give it up… quit smoking… this is day one.. and > > already I’m climbing the walls! HELP!  SUPPORT!  Cig???  :o) > > But I’m determined.. and I’m ready… I think.. (I just LOVE being so > > decisive!!) > > Anyway… just wanted my friends to know that I’m gonna attempt this.. so if > > I get grouchy.. you will know why!  :o) > > Hugs & Prayers, > > Tee > > — > > MS MounTain > > http://www.dsgnworks.com/~msmt/ > > RedLady’s Home > > http://www.angelfire.com/ky/redlady/index.html

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Good luck Tee.  My father quit this summer after 50 years of smoking.  He really had no choice, he is now on O2 and will explode in a ball of fire if he lights up : )  The patches seemed to help him. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tee wrote: > Okay… I decided to give it up… quit smoking… this is day one.. and > already I’m climbing the walls! HELP!  SUPPORT!  Cig???  :o) > But I’m determined.. and I’m ready… I think.. (I just LOVE being so > decisive!!) > Anyway… just wanted my friends to know that I’m gonna attempt this.. so if > I get grouchy.. you will know why!  :o) > Hugs & Prayers, > Tee > — > MS MounTain > http://www.dsgnworks.com/~msmt/ > RedLady’s Home > http://www.angelfire.com/ky/redlady/index.html

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Antibiotics never should be taken as preventative. They have to be served for really dangerous bacterial infections. If everyone would take antibiotics as preventatives they wouldn’t be effective anymore. Your problem, not mine.  I’ve had repeated attacks of pneumonia, each one causing lung damage.  I very quickly go from bronchitis to pneumonia so my doctor wants me to have antibiotics immediately to kill the germs BEFORE they go into pneumonia. Sue I would like to see one of the pulmonologists respond to this as this practice seems like bad medicine.

 I DO see a pulmonary specialis AND a GP who has successfully treated many asthmatics.  My doctor’s treatment has gotten me off oral steriods, kept me out of the hospital and improved my lung function. Sue Official Secretary of OSGSL Dogs think they’re human Cats think they’re God

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I started getting a cold a couple of days ago, and of course as usualy it went right to my chest. I have been diagnosed with asthma for a little over a year. I have learned that every time I get a cold, it turns into bronchitis. My regular doctor gives me antibiotics along with increases my asthma meds when this happens. So I went in yesterday, couldn’t see my doctor, but saw the doctor on call. He was a new resident. And not very bright. He said he would not give antibiotics if there was not any symptoms yet to speak of needing them. And he didn’t think bronchitis requires antibiotics. I was confused by this.  I have found that when I start antibiotics when I get a cold, it prevents it from going to my lungs and making my asthma so much worse.  Or it at least seems to shorten the time it takes for my asthma and the lovely yellow mucus to clear up.  My question is when any of you get a cold, what is the norm as far as preventing it going to your lungs and triggering the asthma?  I used to just "wait and see" if it would go away and would be on prednisone etc. Now the last two times, I took the antibiotic and I didn’t need prednisone and didn’t get bronchitis.  To me that is a good thing. This doctor thought I was nuts and thought I just wanted drugs to ease my mind.  Amazing though, he wanted to give me a prednisone taper for it. I guess I feel I know my body well enough to know what works for me.  Needless to say I did get on an antibiotic and it hasn’t turned into bronchitis, who would have thunk.

don’t use antibiotics at random…this is important for all our sakes…antibiotics should only be used to deal with a diagnosed and dangerous BACTERIAL infection…then the full cours emust be used so that the bacteria are entirely eliminated…there are already problems with bacteria becoming resistant to the most common antibiotics…some bacterial infections are on the verge of being incurable…save it for when it is needed for all our sakes eric

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My doctor advises me to go and see him at the first sign of any infection when he invariably gives me a course of antibiotics. This may seem pointless if the initial problem is a virus but as I have a knack of catching secondary infections I suppose it is a sensible precaution. Infection in asthmatics is not to be taken lightly. I have been exremely ill since I caught Infuenza (despite being vaccinated !) and had a secondary infection last Xmas and I am still spme way off a return to work. I am well aware of the risks in over prescription of antibiotics but in my case I feel  guilt whatsoever ! Brian

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I started getting a cold a couple of days ago, and of course as usualy it went right to my chest. I have been diagnosed with asthma for a little over a year. I have learned that every time I get a cold, it turns into bronchitis. My regular doctor gives me antibiotics along with increases my asthma meds when this happens. So I went in yesterday, couldn’t see my doctor, but saw the doctor on call. He was a new resident. And not very bright. He said he would not give antibiotics if there was not any symptoms yet to speak of needing them. And he didn’t think bronchitis requires antibiotics. I was confused by this.  I have found that when I start antibiotics when I get a cold, it prevents it from going to my lungs and making my asthma so much worse.  Or it at least seems to shorten the time it takes for my asthma and the lovely yellow mucus to clear up.  My question is when any of you get a cold, what is the norm as far as preventing it going to your lungs and triggering the asthma?  I used to just "wait and see" if it would go away and would be on prednisone etc. Now the last two times, I took the antibiotic and I didn’t need prednisone and didn’t get bronchitis.  To me that is a good thing. This doctor thought I was nuts and thought I just wanted drugs to ease my mind.  Amazing though, he wanted to give me a prednisone taper for it. I guess I feel I know my body well enough to know what works for me.  Needless to say I did get on an antibiotic and it hasn’t turned into bronchitis, who would have thunk. don’t use antibiotics at random…this is important for all our sakes…antibiotics should only be used to deal with a diagnosed and dangerous BACTERIAL infection…then the full cours emust be used so that the bacteria are entirely eliminated…there are already problems with bacteria becoming resistant to the most common antibiotics…some bacterial infections are on the verge of being incurable…save it for when it is needed for all our sakes eric

 May I respectfully point out that (a) you are not a pulmonary specialist, (b) you don’t seem to have a clue what WE are talking about and (c) I’ll prefer to get my treatment for MY illness from a physician who knows what he’s doing. Sue Official Secretary of OSGSL Dogs think they’re human Cats think they’re God

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One of the most poignant talks at a meeting of the American Society of Microbiologists (ASM) that I attended in Atlanta last year was about how we have taken this miracle of antibiotics that was given to us and have abused it, squandered it,and taken it for granted….. I don’t think we realize what a miracle antibiotics are!!!! Now we are faced with the problem of resistance.. especially because of the constant use of antibiotics to treat ear infections in daycare children for example… Also we humans have become an impatient lot- we want a pill to cure us even if we have a virus. And then we don’t take the medicine through its full course!! Antibiotics are like a precious jewel.. Think about it. Use them only when really needed!  Tell this to your doctors.. Chilla

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My daughter (now 21) has had asthma since she had whooping cough at 8 months old …..she has been on every medication on the market….been involved in many drug studies some with limited success for a short while but then always back to square one!  My husband and I never had a full nights sleep all during the years she was at home….. She’s off at University now and determined to avoid prednisone at the University and to continue to try anything that might be a breakthru in this debilitating disease.  What works for one person doesn’t seem to be successful for others.   We have to keep an open mind and make sure our specialist have taken the time (and many don’t) to keep up to date on the current literatureresearch which infections in the nose and the use of antibotics for other infections has to be asthma free…… A mother trying to let go http://www.wdn.com/mirkin/7195.html http://www.wdn.com/mirkin/7165.html http://www.wdn.com/mirkin/7170.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My doctor advises me to go and see him at the first sign of any infection when he invariably gives me a course of antibiotics. This may seem pointless if the initial problem is a virus but as I have a knack of catching secondary infections I suppose it is a sensible precaution. Infection in asthmatics is not to be taken lightly. I have been exremely ill since I caught Infuenza (despite being vaccinated !) and had a secondary infection last Xmas and I am still spme way off a return to work. I am well aware of the risks in over prescription of antibiotics but in my case I feel  guilt whatsoever ! Brian

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ah, but when a patient has an URI that progresses into pneumonia five out of six times, and when the doctor wishes to properly treat that patient, then how would YOU suggest the doctor treat when the patient comes in with yet another URI?  By the technique you are describing, the doctor should be conservative and wait until the URI is actually a serious infection.  By which time, the patient is rapidly going into pneumonia. I’ve seen an increase of posts on this group by laymen who read a few journal articles and think they now know how to treat asthma. Nothing in my original post said anything about NOT completely taking all antibiotics I’ve been prescribed.  I’m obsessive about that.  And he was mixing failure to complete medications with doctor’s over-prescribing antibiotics, and also second-guessing doctors who know their patients, know how to treat properly.  My doctor KNOWS an aggressive treatment is what is best for me. My doctor is excellent. IMHO, he’s the only reason I’m still alive.  When I started going to him I was on the verge of serious lung damage.  And I am NOT going to stop following his instructions just because some person on the internet read an article. Sue Official Secretary of OSGSL Dogs think they’re human Cats think they’re God First Sue…I am a layman…but my involvement in health matters extends to an awful lot more than reading a few articles…amongst other things it includes reading health authority policy documents on dealing with antibiotic resistant infections, along with sitting in meetings discussing such matters with consultants, hospital managers and other interested parties…I have been involved in these matters for over a decade

This still does not make you MY doctor.  Nor does it give you any right to criticise what works for those of us who do have excellent doctors. Secondly I did not suggest at any point that somebody should not take a course of antibiotics under medical supervision…it was intended as a warning of the consequences of being casual about taking them…I’m sure you are not…but unquestionably there are people who are

Yes.  But that’s NOT what was said.  I’ve been getting several emails from one of the group, with a more than pompeous attitude toward MY description of what works for ME.  NOTHING in any of my posts about MY treatment was directed in general.  Nor should it be taken as such.   as soon as a viral infection has a bacterial infection as a complication then obviously antibiotics are the answer…but in my 38 years of asthma I have only twice had any form of bacterial infection follow a cold…I regularly go to my GP if I have the slightest worry that this might be happening, that is essential…however in my case antibiotics have rarely been required

Then it’s quite obvious that I have a totally different problem than you do.  And what works for you will not work for me.  And vice versa. Which is my exact point!!!! it seemed to be developing into a thread that might imply that every asthmatic should always insist on taking antibiotics every time they get a cold…I believe it is important to be cautious about the use of antibiotics and thought it important that somebody post a cautionary word or two

Sigh.  I have never said that.  However, I am beginning to deeply resent the remarks I’m getting that the treatment I’m getting is not proper. I just got email saying that I should not have received an IM shot of steroids when I was at the Urgent Care the other night.  How DARE someone make that assessment, especially since the person sending me the email was not present during my acute asthma attack, nor are they a medical professional!!!! eric

Sue Official Secretary of OSGSL Dogs think they’re human Cats think they’re God

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and how did you come to this conclusion?

Eric said "don’t use antibiotics at random…this is important for all our sakes…antibiotics should only be used to deal with a diagnosed and dangerous BACTERIAL infection…then the full cours emust be used so that the bacteria are entirely eliminated…there are already problems with bacteria becoming resistant to the most common antibiotics…some bacterial infections are on the verge of being incurable…save it for when it is needed for all our sakes" in reply to lisa1 who stated she was unable to see her regular doctor. Eric’s comments are on a ‘micro’ level and are a direct contradiction of what Lisa’s Doctor normally does and prescribes for Lisa. You totally agreed with Eric comments which also presumes that Lisa’s Doctor does not know what is best for her. Had both Eric and you mentioned initially in your posts that you were not in disagreement with the individual treatment being prescribed by the attending physcian then I would not have made my reply but that did not seem to be the case.  I am full agreement with the knowledge you possess about infections and their treatment – but again that is on a paradigm level not an individual level. But overall I think we are in agreement with each other. if your doubt the veracity of any of the statements I have made regarding

the overuse, and over-prescribing of antibiotics, please feel free to do some research before you make a fool of yourself.  The material is readily available on the web if you have the urge to be informed. I never doubted your knowledge just how it came across.  Don’t be so defensive. I, too, have had throat infections which will turn into a respiratory

infection within about 24 hours.  Does that mean that I NEED antibiotics EVERY time I get a sore throat….NO!  Does that mean you don’t?  Who knows……but if your doc is not taking the overuse issue seriously he could well be jeopardizing you without YOU even knowing about it…..and that would be a shame.  To blindly trust anyone with your health is dangerous. I am sure my Doctor is taking the overuse of antibiotics seriously which is why I am going through a prevention program of taking my flu shots, pneumonia shot, ‘enviromentalizing’ my house, desensitizing my allergies, regular exercise, etc. He would really prefer not to see me. Neither of us spoke to any single individual, the comments were made in

general, therefore your comments, sir, were inappropriate given the context of the original posts by Eric and myself. That is not how several people took your comments. And BTW…..a thought to consider here…..while you may have a relatively

strong defense system within your body today, 10 years, 20 years down the line you may not.  Becoming colonized with one of the above bacteria may well be essentially your death warrant as you get older.  I have seen raging pneumonias from these the first three bacteria which can kill in less than 24 hours…..and there is not a damn thing we can do to substantially kill off the critters.  How easy would it be to become colonized with one of these bacteria…….Staph Aureus is normal skin  flora….the Methacillin Resistance is a learned trait.  It comes from mitochondrial changes within the bacteria itself (DNA) and you will never know about it until you have your system weaken and you become unable to keep it in check……and then it may be too late to take this issue seriously. I would be very happy to live another 10 or 20 years and I feel my Doctor will get me there without over prescribing antibiotics! Eric has made several other posts to this thread and more fully explained why he made his comments which agrees with what you are saying and what I am saying so we seem to be discussing and agreeing so why are we Enjoy your weekend! Tim Hunter

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ah, but when a patient has an URI that progresses into pneumonia five out of six times, and when the doctor wishes to properly treat that patient, then how would YOU suggest the doctor treat when the patient comes in with yet another URI?  By the technique you are describing, the doctor should be conservative and wait until the URI is actually a serious infection.  By which time, the patient is rapidly going into pneumonia. I’ve seen an increase of posts on this group by laymen who read a few journal articles and think they now know how to treat asthma. Nothing in my original post said anything about NOT completely taking all antibiotics I’ve been prescribed.  I’m obsessive about that.  And he was mixing failure to complete medications with doctor’s over-prescribing antibiotics, and also second-guessing doctors who know their patients, know how to treat properly.  My doctor KNOWS an aggressive treatment is what is best for me. My doctor is excellent. IMHO, he’s the only reason I’m still alive.  When I started going to him I was on the verge of serious lung damage.  And I am NOT going to stop following his instructions just because some person on the internet read an article. Sue Official Secretary of OSGSL Dogs think they’re human Cats think they’re God

First Sue…I am a layman…but my involvement in health matters extends to an awful lot more than reading a few articles…amongst other things it includes reading health authority policy documents on dealing with antibiotic resistant infections, along with sitting in meetings discussing such matters with consultants, hospital managers and other interested parties…I have been involved in these matters for over a decade Secondly I did not suggest at any point that somebody should not take a course of antibiotics under medical supervision…it was intended as a warning of the consequences of being casual about taking them…I’m sure you are not…but unquestionably there are people who are as soon as a viral infection has a bacterial infection as a complication then obviously antibiotics are the answer…but in my 38 years of asthma I have only twice had any form of bacterial infection follow a cold…I regularly go to my GP if I have the slightest worry that this might be happening, that is essential…however in my case antibiotics have rarely been required it seemed to be developing into a thread that might imply that every asthmatic should always insist on taking antibiotics every time they get a cold…I believe it is important to be cautious about the use of antibiotics and thought it important that somebody post a cautionary word or two eric

Response:

Scooby – I do disagree with you and agree with Sue and my Doctor. My colds start in my throat and within a day or so it will go to my lungs and turn to green sputum. My Doctor has given me orders to immediately go to his office at the first sign of a cold where upon he will prescribe antibiotics to take care of the opportunistic infections I tend to acquire. – I agree with you that with the ordinary blokes, that antibiotics should not be empirically prescribed but you seem to arbitrarily to apply the same standards to asthma or emphysema patients under a Doctor’s care which seems to be a bit presumptuous upon your part.

Yes, indeed.  Unfortunately, not everyone is the same.  A doctor who has treated a patient and had good results, knows what he is doing.  And I am starting to get very tired of posters who read a journal article or two, then start sending me reams of email about how ‘WRONG’ my doctor is. Tim

Sue – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – May I respectfully point out that (a) you are not a pulmonary specialist, (b) you don’t seem to have a clue what WE are talking about and (c) I’ll prefer to get my treatment for MY illness from a physician who knows what he’s doing. As far as Eric’s comments he absolutely on the money.  Over prescribing of antibiotics, and failure to finish what is prescribed are the two major reasons for resistant bacteria today.  I will also second the comment regarding the extreme dangers we are facing.  There have only been a couple new antibiotics developed in the last few years.  I know of several opportunistic bacteria which have NO effective treatment any longer because of their developing DNA resistance within themselves. As for your commentary about Eric not being a Pulmonary Specialist, I think you were rather abrupt with him as his comments certainly do seem on the mark, and he has not been one to post unsubstantiated material in the past. Any physician who continues empirically prescribing antibiotics is treading on the borders of acceptable medicine by today’s standards.  The benefits must outweigh the risks, and the patient must follow the directions dilligently. Failure on either part of this equation places human lives in jeopardy. Scooby RCP, EMT-P Perinatal-Pediatric Respiratory Specialist This mail is a natural product.  The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects.

Official Secretary of OSGSL Dogs think they’re human Cats think they’re God

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -May I respectfully point out that (a) you are not a pulmonary specialist, (b) you don’t seem to have a clue what WE are talking about and (c) I’ll prefer to get my treatment for MY illness from a physician who knows what he’s doing. As far as Eric’s comments he absolutely on the money.  Over prescribing of antibiotics, and failure to finish what is prescribed are the two major reasons for resistant bacteria today.  I will also second the comment regarding the extreme dangers we are facing.  There have only been a couple new antibiotics developed in the last few years.  I know of several opportunistic bacteria which have NO effective treatment any longer because of their developing DNA resistance within themselves.   As for your commentary about Eric not being a Pulmonary Specialist, I think you were rather abrupt with him as his comments certainly do seem on the mark, and he has not been one to post unsubstantiated material in the past. Any physician who continues empirically prescribing antibiotics is treading on the borders of acceptable medicine by today’s standards.  The benefits must outweigh the risks, and the patient must follow the directions dilligently. Failure on either part of this equation places human lives in jeopardy.

Ah, but when a patient has an URI that progresses into pneumonia five out of six times, and when the doctor wishes to properly treat that patient, then how would YOU suggest the doctor treat when the patient comes in with yet another URI?  By the technique you are describing, the doctor should be conservative and wait until the URI is actually a serious infection.  By which time, the patient is rapidly going into pneumonia. I’ve seen an increase of posts on this group by laymen who read a few journal articles and think they now know how to treat asthma.   Nothing in my original post said anything about NOT completely taking all antibiotics I’ve been prescribed.  I’m obsessive about that.  And he was mixing failure to complete medications with doctor’s over-prescribing antibiotics, and also second-guessing doctors who know their patients, know how to treat properly.  My doctor KNOWS an aggressive treatment is what is best for me. My doctor is excellent. IMHO, he’s the only reason I’m still alive.  When I started going to him I was on the verge of serious lung damage.  And I am NOT going to stop following his instructions just because some person on the internet read an article. Scooby RCP, EMT-P Perinatal-Pediatric Respiratory Specialist This mail is a natural product.  The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects.

Sue Official Secretary of OSGSL Dogs think they’re human Cats think they’re God

Response:

you seem to arbitrarily to apply the same standards to asthma or emphysema patients under a Doctor’s care which seems to be a bit presumptuous upon your part.

and how did you come to this conclusion? I stated that the benefits MUST outweigh the risks.  I have stated many times before that each person’s physiology is unique and therefore, what works for one asthmatic (or any other patient) may well not work for the next. if your doubt the veracity of any of the statements I have made regarding the overuse, and over-prescribing of antibiotics, please feel free to do some research before you make a fool of yourself.  The material is readily available on the web if you have the urge to be informed. I, too, have had throat infections which will turn into a respiratory infection within about 24 hours.  Does that mean that I NEED antibiotics EVERY time I get a sore throat….NO!  Does that mean you don’t?  Who knows……but if your doc is not taking the overuse issue seriously he could well be jeopardizing you without YOU even knowing about it…..and that would be a shame.  To blindly trust anyone with your health is dangerous. local hospital (preferably a university based institution, but a community based one will do) and ask to speak to the infection control nurse.  Ask her to tell you about antibiotics, their current use and the dangers of overuse.  Ask her to tell you about resistant organisms, and let her explain to you that with certain bacteria, once you are colonized you may NEVER get rid of them because we just don’t have the drug power any more…..here are a few of the bugs I am talking about: Vancomycin Resistant Enterococcus (VRE), Methacillin Resistant Staph Aureus (MRSA), Drug Resistant  Streptococcus Pneumoniae (DRSP), Multi-Drug Resistant Tuberculosis (MRTB). And when you are done there, call another.  And when you are done, come back and apologize.   The information that Eric and I have provided here is not only verifiable, but readily available for substantiation.  Since the material is so readily available I will not hand it to you. Neither of us spoke to any single individual, the comments were made in general, therefore your comments, sir, were inappropriate given the context of the original posts by Eric and myself.   And BTW…..a thought to consider here…..while you may have a relatively strong defense system within your body today, 10 years, 20 years down the line you may not.  Becoming colonized with one of the above bacteria may well be essentially your death warrant as you get older.  I have seen raging pneumonias from these the first three bacteria which can kill in less than 24 hours…..and there is not a damn thing we can do to substantially kill off the critters.  How easy would it be to become colonized with one of these bacteria…….Staph Aureus is normal skin flora….the Methacillin Resistance is a learned trait.  It comes from mitochondrial changes within the bacteria itself (DNA) and you will never know about it until you have your system weaken and you become unable to keep it in check……and then it may be too late to take this issue seriously. Here’s a starter link: http://ink.yahoo.com/bin/query?p=drug+resistant+pneumonia&hc=0&hs=0 Scooby RCP, EMT-P Perinatal-Pediatric Respiratory Specialist This mail is a natural product.  The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – don’t use antibiotics at random…this is important for all our sakes…antibiotics should only be used to deal with a diagnosed and dangerous BACTERIAL infection…then the full cours emust be used so that the bacteria are entirely eliminated…there are already problems with bacteria becoming resistant to the most common antibiotics…some bacterial infections are on the verge of being incurable…save it for when it is needed for all our sakes eric  May I respectfully point out that (a) you are not a pulmonary specialist, (b) you don’t seem to have a clue what WE are talking about and (c) I’ll prefer to get my treatment for MY illness from a physician who knows what he’s doing. Sue

a: you are correct…but I have been a diagnosed asthmatic for 38 years…and this is relevant to the post, I have been vice chair of my local Community Health Council and have had many years involvement in health policy b: I am absolutely clear on what you are talking about, I just look at it from a different perspective…I am used to dealing with health issues as something that involves large numbers of people not simply one individual…the post is simply to make sure that that perspective was presented c: there is nothing in my post that hasn’t been stated ad nauseum by large numbers of health professionals of all kinds when talking about what general policy should be towards antibiotic use don’t assume I don’t know the dangers from infection…I have lost two friends to pneumonia, one had AIDS, the other was asthmatic…I also have a good friend who has been wheelchair bound since he was 21 due to pneumonia…but there are already problems with bacteria that are resistant to almost all antibiotics, and tuberculosis is returning and in danger of becoming resistant to many antibiotics…so I really believe that it’s important that everyone be aware that misuse of antibiotics can be a problem for us all I also assume that your doctor is prescribing them to you with full awareness of this and because he feels they are something you genuinely need…but I have heard of people who stop taking antiobiotics as soon as they feel better and then hoard them till they next feel ill and use them then…the post is mostly directed at those people rather than people like yourself who are using antibiotics only as directed by a doctor eric

Response:

Scooby – I do disagree with you and agree with Sue and my Doctor. My colds start in my throat and within a day or so it will go to my lungs and turn to green sputum. My Doctor has given me orders to immediately go to his office at the first sign of a cold where upon he will prescribe antibiotics to take care of the opportunistic infections I tend to acquire. – I agree with you that with the ordinary blokes, that antibiotics should not be empirically prescribed but you seem to arbitrarily to apply the same standards to asthma or emphysema patients under a Doctor’s care which seems to be a bit presumptuous upon your part. Tim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – May I respectfully point out that (a) you are not a pulmonary specialist, (b) you don’t seem to have a clue what WE are talking about and (c) I’ll prefer to get my treatment for MY illness from a physician who knows what he’s doing. As far as Eric’s comments he absolutely on the money.  Over prescribing of antibiotics, and failure to finish what is prescribed are the two major reasons for resistant bacteria today.  I will also second the comment regarding the extreme dangers we are facing.  There have only been a couple new antibiotics developed in the last few years.  I know of several opportunistic bacteria which have NO effective treatment any longer because of their developing DNA resistance within themselves. As for your commentary about Eric not being a Pulmonary Specialist, I think you were rather abrupt with him as his comments certainly do seem on the mark, and he has not been one to post unsubstantiated material in the past. Any physician who continues empirically prescribing antibiotics is treading on the borders of acceptable medicine by today’s standards.  The benefits must outweigh the risks, and the patient must follow the directions dilligently. Failure on either part of this equation places human lives in jeopardy. Scooby RCP, EMT-P Perinatal-Pediatric Respiratory Specialist This mail is a natural product.  The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects.

Response:

May I respectfully point out that (a) you are not a pulmonary specialist, (b) you don’t seem to have a clue what WE are talking about and (c) I’ll prefer to get my treatment for MY illness from a physician who knows what he’s doing.

As far as Eric’s comments he absolutely on the money.  Over prescribing of antibiotics, and failure to finish what is prescribed are the two major reasons for resistant bacteria today.  I will also second the comment regarding the extreme dangers we are facing.  There have only been a couple new antibiotics developed in the last few years.  I know of several opportunistic bacteria which have NO effective treatment any longer because of their developing DNA resistance within themselves.   As for your commentary about Eric not being a Pulmonary Specialist, I think you were rather abrupt with him as his comments certainly do seem on the mark, and he has not been one to post unsubstantiated material in the past. Any physician who continues empirically prescribing antibiotics is treading on the borders of acceptable medicine by today’s standards.  The benefits must outweigh the risks, and the patient must follow the directions dilligently. Failure on either part of this equation places human lives in jeopardy. Scooby RCP, EMT-P Perinatal-Pediatric Respiratory Specialist This mail is a natural product.  The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects.

Response:

Hi Lisa, I do not profess to be an expert in this area so the following is only my opinion. My son also has severe asthma. When he gets a cold the first line of defense is that we pump up the amount of steroid he has to one extra dose…(asthma specialist orders) If this doesn’t do the trick then we move on to prednisone. We never start the antibiotics until it has been shown that the cold has indeed moved into being an infection, i.e lasts longer than a week, yellow nasal discharge, he has ear pain, So I can see why you’d go on the antibiotics but I thought it should happen after it is certain that what you have is an infection…I could be wrong of course as your case maybe different. Just some thing to think about… Vicky – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I started getting a cold a couple of days ago, and of course as usualy it went right to my chest. I have been diagnosed with asthma for a little over a year. I have learned that every time I get a cold, it turns into bronchitis. My regular doctor gives me antibiotics along with increases my asthma meds when this happens. So I went in yesterday, couldn’t see my doctor, but saw the doctor on call. He was a new resident. And not very bright. He said he would not give antibiotics if there was not any symptoms yet to speak of needing them. And he didn’t think bronchitis requires antibiotics. I was confused by this.  I have found that when I start antibiotics when I get a cold, it prevents it from going to my lungs and making my asthma so much worse.  Or it at least seems to shorten the time it takes for my asthma and the lovely yellow mucus to clear up.  My question is when any of you get a cold, what is the norm as far as preventing it going to your lungs and triggering the asthma?  I used to just "wait and see" if it would go away and would be on prednisone etc. Now the last two times, I took the antibiotic and I didn’t need prednisone and didn’t get bronchitis.  To me that is a good thing. This doctor thought I was nuts and thought I just wanted drugs to ease my mind.  Amazing though, he wanted to give me a prednisone taper for it. I guess I feel I know my body well enough to know what works for me.  Needless to say I did get on an antibiotic and it hasn’t turned into bronchitis, who would have thunk. I started getting a cold a couple of days ago, and of course as usualy it went right to my chest. I have been diagnosed with asthma for a little over a year. I have learned that every time I get a cold, it turns into bronchitis. My regular doctor gives me antibiotics along with increases my asthma meds when this happens. So I went in yesterday, couldn’t see my doctor, but saw the doctor on call. He was a new resident. And not very bright. He said he would not give antibiotics if there was not any symptoms yet to speak of needing them. And he didn’t think bronchitis requires antibiotics. I was confused by this.  I have found that when I start antibiotics when I get a cold, it prevents it from going to my lungs and making my asthma so much worse.  Or it at least seems to shorten the time it takes for my asthma and the lovely yellow mucus to clear up.  My question is when any of you get a cold, what is the norm as far as preventing it going to your lungs and triggering the asthma?  I used to just "wait and see" if it would go away and would be on prednisone etc. Now the last two times, I took the antibiotic and I didn’t need prednisone and didn’t get bronchitis.  To me that is a good thing. This doctor thought I was nuts and thought I just wanted drugs to ease my mind.  Amazing though, he wanted to give me a prednisone taper for it. I guess I feel I know my body well enough to know what works for me.  Needless to say I did get on an antibiotic and it hasn’t turned into bronchitis, who would have thunk.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I started getting a cold a couple of days ago, and of course as usualy it went right to my chest. I have been diagnosed with asthma for a little over a year. I have learned that every time I get a cold, it turns into bronchitis. My regular doctor gives me antibiotics along with increases my asthma meds when this happens. So I went in yesterday, couldn’t see my doctor, but saw the doctor on call. He was a new resident. And not very bright. He said he would not give antibiotics if there was not any symptoms yet to speak of needing them. And he didn’t think bronchitis requires antibiotics. I was confused by this.  I have found that when I start antibiotics when I get a cold, it prevents it from going to my lungs and making my asthma so much worse.  Or it at least seems to shorten the time it takes for my asthma and the lovely yellow mucus to clear up.  My question is when any of you get a cold, what is the norm as far as preventing it going to your lungs and triggering the asthma?  I used to just "wait and see" if it would go away and would be on prednisone etc. Now the last two times, I took the antibiotic and I didn’t need prednisone and didn’t get bronchitis.  To me that is a good thing. This doctor thought I was nuts and thought I just wanted drugs to ease my mind.  Amazing though, he wanted to give me a prednisone taper for it. I guess I feel I know my body well enough to know what works for me.  Needless to say I did get on an antibiotic and it hasn’t turned into bronchitis, who would have thunk.

There is more than a little controversy among doctors about this issue.  There are more than a few doctors who are of the opinion that it is a good idea to give asthmatics antibiotics even if the problem is a virus in order to protect from ‘opportunistic’ infections. There is an equally large number of doctors who feel that all this practice does is breed antibiotic resistant bacteria. As far as I know, this matter has not been settled either way. No electrons were harmed in the posting of this message.

Response:

Antibiotics never should be taken as preventative. They have to be served for really dangerous bacterial infections. If everyone would take antibiotics as preventatives they wouldn’t be effective anymore.

Your problem, not mine.  I’ve had repeated attacks of pneumonia, each one causing lung damage.  I very quickly go from bronchitis to pneumonia so my doctor wants me to have antibiotics immediately to kill the germs BEFORE they go into pneumonia. Sue – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bacteria develop resistance quite fast. If you take antibiotics every time you get a cold it may happen that resistant bacteria are selected in your body which are not sensitive towards antibiotics anymore and in case your immune system is really weak one day nothing might be left to fight them. I would take antibiotics only as last means even if it might be much more comfortable to take them. When I get a cold I make sure to breath through my nose only. When I succeed in this the colds never turn into bronchitis. Before I knew about this I often got bronchitis. And I try to strenghten my immune systeme by cold showers, cycling, an adequat di

Question:

>Can allergies affect the nervous system?  I’ve been experiencing what I’ve >been told are allergy problems.  One of the symptoms has seemed to be a >nervous stomach.  I can be at certain places, and the slightest nervousness >causes burping,  and my neck to tighten up.  The thing that really bothers >me is that it seems like the burp "gets stuck" and when it does come out it >has that forceful feeling like with throwing up.

Perhaps you are experiencing early stages of esophageal reflux. Many can have GERD for years before realizing it is a problem. When it occurs when you are asleep, the stomach acid can lead to chronic sore throats and lead to increased allergy related symptoms as it sensitizes the area by stressing it. At first you just may feel you are more susceptible to colds and sore throats. then you might have something similar to an acute asthma attack, or notice your throat hurting in the prescence of certain perfumes etc…. Worth looking into, as it is often overlooked in the prognosis of particular allergy complaints. Some GPs and ENTs are well aware of the possible linkage, some are not

Response:

Can allergies affect the nervous system?  I’ve been experiencing what I’ve been told are allergy problems.  One of the symptoms has seemed to be a nervous stomach.  I can be at certain places, and the slightest nervousness causes burping,  and my neck to tighten up.  The thing that really bothers me is that it seems like the burp "gets stuck" and when it does come out it has that forceful feeling like with throwing up.  I don’t think it is a panic attack as I realize there’s no reason to be nervous.  I’ve been under much more stress in the past without having any such problems.  However, since the start of sinus problems last year my nerves have been out of whack.

Response:

Question:

You do need to take the bronchodilators before taking the vanceril, the reason is it opens up the lungs even more to allow more medication to be absorbed,

New asthma guidelines (Expert Panel 2 Report) no longer routinely recommend using a bronchodilator before an inhaled steroid; it should only be used as needed for ‘rescue’ or exercise. If a bronchodilator is needed more often than once/day, it indicates the need for more long-acting preventor meds. (inhaled steroids, Serevent [long-acting bronchodilator], or  Accolate/Singulair/Zyflo) Of course, if peak flow is below 80% or there are asthma symptoms, the  bronchodilator will be needed til peak flow can be raised back into  green zone (80% PB) or symptoms controlled. Marc, if 4 pf Azmacort 4 times a day doesn’t control the asthma, its time to try a stonger steroid inhaler like Vanceril Double Strength, Flovent, or Pulmicort. Also, the long-acting bronchodilator Serevent should be added to reduce your need for Proventil. You do need to rinse and gargle and drink water after inhaling Azmacort to avoid thrush. Ellis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – as for the thrush YOU NEED TO RINSE OUT YOUR MOUTH AFTER EVERY USE!   my doc has me on albuterol on an as needed. the vanceril [beclomethasone] is 3 puffs 3x per day. if you’re breathing is good when it’s time for your cort puff, i guess you dont need to pre-dilate. The last time I went to the Indian Clinic, I even got to see a doctor! He told me that instead of taking 2 puffs of Azmacort 4X a day, I should first take 2 puffs of an albuterol inhaler. Then, after giving the bronchodilator a minute, I should take 4 puffs of the steroid. I’ve been doing this for 2 weeks now, and I see  no difference besides the return of thrush mouth. Does anyone else take these (or  similar) inhalers in this way? And how does this compare to the old way  I was taking them (the mentioned steroid plus Proventil whenever needed– about 6 puffs/day)?  Marc Parker

Response:

You do need to take the bronchodilators before taking the vanceril, the reason is it opens up the lungs even more to allow more medication to be absorbed, and as for the thrush either you didn’t read the material that came with your inhaler or you just didn’t care about it, YOU NEED TO RINSE OUT YOUR MOUTH AFTER EVERY USE! do that and I guarantee you wont get thrush again, I’ve been on various corticosteroids constantly for the last 3 years and I have yet to get thrush. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – my doc has me on albuterol on an as needed. the vanceril [beclomethasone] is 3 puffs 3x per day. if you’re breathing is good when it’s time for your cort puff, i guess you dont need to pre-dilate. The last time I went to the Indian Clinic, I even got to see a doctor! He told me that instead of taking 2 puffs of Azmacort 4X a day, I should first take 2 puffs of an albuterol inhaler. Then, after giving the bronchodilator a minute, I should take 4 puffs of the steroid. I’ve been doing this for 2 weeks now, and I see  no difference besides the return of thrush mouth. Does anyone else take these (or  similar) inhalers in this way? And how does this compare to the old way  I was taking them (the mentioned steroid plus Proventil whenever needed– about 6 puffs/day)? thanks in advance, Marc Parker

Response:

The last time I went to the Indian Clinic, I even got to see a doctor! He told me that instead of taking 2 puffs of Azmacort 4X a day, I should first take 2 puffs of an albuterol inhaler. Then, after giving the bronchodilator a minute, I should take 4 puffs of the steroid. I’ve been doing this for 2 weeks now, and I see  no difference besides the return of thrush mouth. Does anyone else take these (or  similar) inhalers in this way? And how does this compare to the old way  I was taking them (the mentioned steroid plus Proventil whenever needed– about 6 puffs/day)? thanks in advance, Marc Parker

Response:

The last time I went to the Indian Clinic, I even got to see a doctor! He told me that instead of taking 2 puffs of Azmacort 4X a day, I should first take 2 puffs of an albuterol inhaler. Then, after giving the bronchodilator a minute, I should take 4 puffs of the steroid. I’ve been doing this for 2 weeks now, and I see  no difference besides the return of thrush mouth. Does anyone else take these (or  similar) inhalers in this way? And how does this compare to the old way  I was taking them (the mentioned steroid plus Proventil whenever needed– about 6 puffs/day)?

Albuterol is a rescue medication that (according to the 97 asthma treatment guidelines) should _only_ be used to treat an acute asthma attack.  If your doctor thinks that you need a bronchodilator in order to take you Azmacort, he really should think about taking a more aggressive stance against your inflamation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks in advance, Marc Parker

Response:

doctor! He told me that instead of taking 2 puffs of Azmacort 4X a day, I should first take 2 puffs of an albuterol inhaler. Then, after giving the bronchodilator a minute, I should take 4 puffs of the steroid. I’ve been doing this for 2 weeks now, and I see  no difference besides the return of thrush mouth. Does anyone else take these (or  similar) inhalers in this way? And how does this compare to the old way  I was taking them (the mentioned steroid plus Proventil whenever needed– about 6 puffs/day)? thanks in advance, Marc Parker

If you are going to use a bronchodiator before your steroid spray wait ten minutes. Don’t put any inhaler into your mouth – use a spacer. Your doctor should have a closet full or try your local pharmacy. After using the steroid spray – gargle and rinse your mouth out. If you are not inclined toward an alternative doctor such as a naturopath – a trip to an allergist might be a real step in the right direction. Good luck

Response:

my doc has me on albuterol on an as needed. the vanceril [beclomethasone] is 3 puffs 3x per day. if you’re breathing is good when it’s time for your cort puff, i guess you dont need to pre-dilate.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The last time I went to the Indian Clinic, I even got to see a doctor! He told me that instead of taking 2 puffs of Azmacort 4X a day, I should first take 2 puffs of an albuterol inhaler. Then, after giving the bronchodilator a minute, I should take 4 puffs of the steroid. I’ve been doing this for 2 weeks now, and I see  no difference besides the return of thrush mouth. Does anyone else take these (or  similar) inhalers in this way? And how does this compare to the old way  I was taking them (the mentioned steroid plus Proventil whenever needed– about 6 puffs/day)? thanks in advance, Marc Parker

Response:

Question:

We need to hear from both Colin and Cindy – but must do homework, as we shouldn’t try something based on the advice to some anonymous tip picked up on the web.   Who to talk to?  Degree carrying Doctors, especially those with an appreciation of Holistic medicine.   Whaddya think?

Response:

I think that this is a healthy arguement.  I believe everyone is an individual.  what works for some may not work for others.  You have to consider whether it is worth your while to try.  I could argue both sides of the coin about non-traditional medications for asthma or anything else. This is what makes for "horse races."   I am a health practitioner, college professor, and asthmatic. Asthma education for the public is my obsession.  When someone asks me about herbal or nontraditional medicine I tell them that they must weigh the possible risks against the possible benefits.  You have to understand both sides fully to make your own decision. Any way, I enjoyed reading your arguement.

I agree.  Without discussion of this type somebody cannot make an intelligent decision about thier treatment.  I do not try to _tell_ people how to treat thier asthma ("They’re YOUR lungs"), what I do try to do is provide the sceptical viewpoint.  IMO, too many people who are not willing to buy a TV set without carefull research are willing to try alternative treatments just to see ‘what happens.’

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Just to interject here…….no, it wouldnt HURT to try the "ozone generator" especially if the unit was controlled by a sensor that limited the output to less than what youd get on a sunny day outside.

Can you support this opinion with facts?  There is a ton of research that has been performed into the dangers of ozone exposure for asthmatics. If it bothers you to go outside after a thunderstorm, or if you cant tolerate being up in the mountains in the fall or winter, then maybe this wont be the right thing for you…but youd certainly be intelligent to determine that fairly early on…..Then, if you WERE outside of that small group of people who have zero tolerance for ozone, a unit like that might just possibly be of some help to you.

FYI the ’small group with zero tolerance for ozone’ includes _all_ asthmatics. You have seen my research, and I have pointed you to locations where you could perform your own research.  Have you found any reliable information that concludes that ozone is safe for asthmatics?  Or are you simply providing your own opinion?

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Who to talk to?  Degree carrying Doctors, especially those with an appreciation of Holistic medicine. Whaddya think?

I’d say that it depends on what you mean by ‘holistic medicine’. IMO, doctors give holistic advice all the time when they encourage thier patients to lose weight, excercise, eat a balanced diet, etc.   I feel that the better doctors are concerned about your overall health and not just your asthma.

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Go, Cindy, go! You have my support.   Alternative therapies (like acupuncture, Chinese herbs, and vitamin regimens) have done more to help me control my asthma, than much that traditional medicine has done! I applaud you! ~L. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I never said it implied the discussion of alternative medicine.  Reading your post(s)  has always given me the impression that the heavy traditional science was all you wish  to give any credence to.  I see the group as one that should be open to all ideas.  The original post which started this thread was from a someone who said she was having some success, she felt, from a special diet.  You said that her approach was generally considered a waste of time.  I felt and still feel that that is inappropriate.  An alt group, as opposed to a sci group, to me, should welcome her successes despite the lack of science involved. Lets look at it this way, you support alternative treatments while I am sceptical of anything that is not based on solid science.

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: And isn’t it just as reasonable for others to point out how : little actual science supports most of these remedies?  Or that : the ‘alternative health’ industry is characterized by inflated : claims, poor science, and outright lies? : : Yep, I agree with both of those statements.  I also think that : alternative health has a lot to offer anyway. : The problem is seperating ‘fact’ from folklore, hype, and : deception. But we have to do that for ourselves regardless of the professionals to whom we turn – I don’t simply do what my doctor tells me, I inform myself and make my own decisions.  There have been times when I have refused to follow my doctor’s advice and have been very grateful that I have.  There have also been times when I have blindly followed my doctor’s advice and ended up regretting it deeply. Whether it’s alternative, western, eastern or voodoo (:) therapy, we have to stay informed about our illnesses and bodies, and we have to take responsibility and make our own decisions. — Linda McIver                             — The act of learning something about yourself changes the self about whom you thought you knew.  (It’s probably quantum)

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But we have to do that for ourselves regardless of the professionals to whom we turn – I don’t simply do what my doctor tells me, I inform myself and make my own decisions.  There have been times when I have refused to follow my doctor’s advice and have been very grateful that I have.  There have also been times when I have blindly followed my doctor’s advice and ended up regretting it deeply. Whether it’s alternative, western, eastern or voodoo (:) therapy, we have to stay informed about our illnesses and bodies, and we have to take responsibility and make our own decisions.

I agree wholeheartedly.  The more you know about asthma, the better you can participate in its treatment and control.  Too many people think that the doctor can control the disease for them.  All the doctor can do is give expert advice and provide the tools you need.  From then on its up to you. There are too amny doctors out there who are out of date or have simply forgotten the ‘why’ of the treatments they give. Of course, what I cannot understand is all the people who are sceptical of the advice given by thier doctor, but assume that anything told to them by the alternative health people is correct.

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Go, Cindy, go! You have my support.   Alternative therapies (like acupuncture, Chinese herbs, and vitamin regimens) have done more to help me control my asthma, than much that traditional medicine has done!

One question.  Did the people selling you those ‘Chinese herbs’ warn you as to their side effects?

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: But we have to do that for ourselves regardless of the professionals to : whom we turn – I don’t simply do what my doctor tells me, I inform myself : and make my own decisions.  There have been times when I have refused to : follow my doctor’s advice and have been very grateful that I have.  There : have also been times when I have blindly followed my doctor’s advice and : ended up regretting it deeply. : Whether it’s alternative, western, eastern or voodoo (:) therapy, we have : to stay informed about our illnesses and bodies, and we have to take : responsibility and make our own decisions. : I agree wholeheartedly.  The more you know about asthma, the better you can : participate in its treatment and control.  Too many people think that the : doctor can control the disease for them.  All the doctor can do is give : expert advice and provide the tools you need.  From then on its up to you. : There are too amny doctors out there who are out of date or have simply : forgotten the ‘why’ of the treatments they give. Good heavens.  We agree on something. : Of course, what I cannot understand is all the people who are sceptical of : the advice given by thier doctor, but assume that anything told to them by : the alternative health people is correct. I think there are many people who want to believe that *someone* knows how to help them, and can be trusted.  Taking responsibility for your own health is an enormous step, particularly if you don’t have sufficient scientific background to evaluate what you are told. — — WYSIWYG – they call it that because "What You See Bears Some Faint Resemblance To What You Might Eventually Get If You Are Lucky -WYSBSFRTWYMEGIYAL" doesn’t have quite the same ring to it.  

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I think there are many people who want to believe that *someone* knows how to help them, and can be trusted.  Taking responsibility for your own health is an enormous step, particularly if you don’t have sufficient scientific background to evaluate what you are told.

I suspect that the problem is that we have been spoiled by what modren medicine has acclomplished.  We seem to think that just because there is a treatment to cure ‘disease x’ that there nust be a treatment to cure ‘disease y’.  When medicine cannot provide us with an easy cure, we turn to others who say that they possess the easy cure. Another problem is that most people do not have the necessary background to evaluate the effectivness of treatments.  Also IMO, they should not need to. What we need to do is force the same full-disclosure laws on the alternative medicine people as are applied to the ‘mainstream’ medical people.  The alternative health people claim that they are for ‘freedom of choice’ for patients, but fail to provide the necessary information (particularly ‘bad news’ about thier product) so that the customer can really make an informed decision. I guess that it all boils down to the fact that we have to trust somebody.  And (as I take a pessimistic viewpoint towards man’s honesty and nobility) the only way to provide that trust is by regulating the industries.

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I make my own formulas with crude herbs following 3 years of intensive study.   There is a risk involved with virtually any medication—-sometimes even with food, but I chose this route because I had 18 years of "let’s try this" behind me.   I buy the best quality I can find, based on the classic Materia Medica and established GMP of the providers. Thanks for your concern. ~Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Go, Cindy, go! You have my support.   Alternative therapies (like acupuncture, Chinese herbs, and vitamin regimens) have done more to help me control my asthma, than much that traditional medicine has done! One question.  Did the people selling you those ‘Chinese herbs’ warn you as to their side effects?

Response:

Just to interject here…….no, it wouldnt HURT to try the "ozone generator" especially if the unit was controlled by a sensor that limited the output to less than what youd get on a sunny day outside. If it bothers you to go outside after a thunderstorm, or if you cant tolerate being up in the mountains in the fall or winter, then maybe this wont be the right thing for you…but youd certainly be intelligent to determine that fairly early on…..Then, if you WERE outside of that small group of people who have zero tolerance for ozone, a unit like that might just possibly be of some help to you. Gerhardt

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Ditto, Ditto, Ditto, Cindy……We all appreciate someone watching our backs, but lets give people credit for being able to act on their own behalf also. Inez

If everybody were capible of evaluating the potential effectivness of a medical treatment – why are people spending so much money on quack ‘cures’?

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And isn’t it just as reasonable for others to point out how little actual science supports most of these remedies?  Or that the ‘alternative health’ industry is characterized by inflated claims, poor science, and outright lies? Yep, I agree with both of those statements.  I also think that alternative health has a lot to offer anyway.

The problem is seperating ‘fact’ from folklore, hype, and deception.

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Ah, Cindy…..nice to hear a bit of independent opinion now and then. Politics and profit play a major part in the prescription drug industry, and its amazing to see how many otherwise intelligent people are duping themselves into thinking that "traditional" medicine and technology is the omniscient authority regarding our health. The wife of a good friend of mine, Linda, is a division Vice President for a major banking/insurance firm here in Connecticut. Her job took her all over the world, and the long hours and pressure began to stress her out.  After consulting with her regular physician, getting referrals, etc, etc….she was given a script for several meds including PROZAC. (this woman has never had any psych problems before mind you)  The prescribing doctor told her that there was NO DOCUMENTED SIDE EFFECTS for PROZAC!!! She directly asked him if he was sure about this…..he said "oh yes of course….I wouldnt prescribe it to you otherwise…" After about 6 months of this script, a friend of hers who is a nurse asked her how she was feeling, and they got around to discussing the prescription that Linda had.   Needless to say after Linda got to look at the voluminous side effects that have been documented about Prozac, she was shocked.  She now has a very different view of traditional medicine, and is faced with the rather difficult process of weaning herself off of PROZAK. Lies and bad science are everywhere. Nice to know people like you are out there…. Gerhardt

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I never said it implied the discussion of alternative medicine.  Reading your post(s)  has always given me the impression that the heavy traditional science was all you wish  to give any credence to.

I have said many times that I am a supporter of scientific medicine.  I do not feel comfortable with anything that has not been tested to determine if it is really safe and effective (and less comfortable when people hype something that has been shown to be garbage). I do give credence to people’s opinions.  I also weigh those opinions, based on the persons apparent technical background, and whether there is reasonable support for those opinions.  I disregard: folklore, advertising claims, hype, and exagarration.   I see the group as one that should be open to all ideas.  The original post which started this thread was from a someone who said she was having some success, she felt, from a special diet.  You said that her approach was generally considered a waste of time.  I felt and still feel that that is inappropriate.  An alt group, as opposed to a sci group, to me, should welcome her successes despite the lack of science involved.

My complaint was with her assertation that everybody should avoid milk products.  For this I warned that just because it (apparently) worked for her, that we should not assume that it would work for anybody else. What I described as a waste of time is the use of vitamin supplements as a treatment for asthma.  These remedies have been tested and found to be ineffective.  However this has not stopped amoral vitamin salesmen from hyping the stuff as treatments for everything from aids to asthma. This is okay for you, but you share your opinions on this newsgroup, and I wish to provide another view.  I’ve never seen you acknowledge that the scientists might be  wrong, just a little bit… sometimes.

Actually, all scientists are wrong – about everything.  Science is ever evolving, as new discoveries are made old theories are discarded or modified. My biggest reason for confidence in the scientific method is the built-in quality-control system.  When a scientific theory is accepted it has been tested critiqued and diseccted by experts in the field.  This system does not exist at all in the ‘alternative’ medicine side of things. Would it hurt to try ‘Traditional Chinese Herbs’? (Yes!) probably not

I suggest that you look up the FDA’s report on the dangers of the stuff.  One state (Texas) documented over 800 serious medical problems (as well as several deaths) from using the stuff. It is okay to point out any lack of science.  Profits and politics play a big role in the lack of science supporting alternative treatments. Many individuals are receiving benefits from the therapies you scorn. One success story shared is worth ten times more than all of your skepticism. There was more in my last post I thought for sure you’d respond too. Oh, well.

I make my decision on when to stop replying when I look at the clock and see what time it is.

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Under the Usenet heirachary, the ‘alt’ in alt support asthma simply refers to groups that do not fall under the more ‘traditional’ Usenet catigories (sci. soc. biz. comp. etc.).  It does not imply that the group discusses alternative medicines. Yep.  Actually it alt. stands for anarchy, terrorism and darn, forgot what the l stood for.  Somebody help me out here?

linguinni. Sheldon

Response:

I think that this is a healthy arguement.  I believe everyone is an individual.  what works for some may not work for others.  You have to consider whether it is worth your while to try.  I could argue both sides of the coin about non-traditional medications for asthma or anything else. This is what makes for "horse races."   I am a health practitioner, college professor, and asthmatic. Asthma education for the public is my obsession.  When someone asks me about herbal or nontraditional medicine I tell them that they must weigh the possible risks against the possible benefits.  You have to understand both sides fully to make your own decision. Any way, I enjoyed reading your arguement.  

Response:

Under the Usenet heirachary, the ‘alt’ in alt support asthma simply refers to groups that do not fall under the more ‘traditional’ Usenet catigories (sci. soc. biz. comp. etc.).  It does not imply that the group discusses alternative medicines.

Yep.  Actually it alt. stands for anarchy, terrorism and darn, forgot what the l stood for.  Somebody help me out here? Lets look at it this way, you support alternative treatments while I am sceptical of anything that is not based on solid science.

And I’m somewhere in the middle.  I must add here, Colin, that while I have always been skeptical of the milk bit I have noticed that after I drink something with milk in it I have more mucus to clear.  Generally that isn’t a problem but I have noticed it. I have also tried the Vit C.  It does seem to be having an effect. I am amazed quite frankly.  It even seems to be helping with the sinusitus.   One difference between us is that I go and review the scientific literature on something before I try it.  If this lack perspective, can you explain exactly why? Would it hurt to try an ozone generator? (Yes!) Would it hurt to try ‘Traditional Chinese Herbs’? (Yes!)

Depends on the herbs.  I use ginseng and astralagus but neither helps my asthma.  The ginseng just gives me more energy and the astralagus boosts my immune system (which, if asthma is an autoimmune disease is probably not a good thing for the asthma but it helps keep away the infections, perhaps it’s a draw). Anyway, why should somebody waste thier money on remedies that lack scientific basis?  As a nurse I expect that you were taught the importance of practicing scientific medicine, why should you have a problem with my pointing out what the scientific studies have found?  Isn’t this information that should be considered before a decision to try a particular remedy is made?

One thing you learn when you are around hospitals.  Many things exist in this world which science cannot explain.  I’ve seen folks that should have been dead that didn’t die.  I’ve seen people who should have been in excruciating pain not have any pain at all.  I’ve seen lot’s of stuff science can’t explain.  Sometimes we just have to admit that science does not have all the answers. And isn’t it just as reasonable for others to point out how little actual science supports most of these remedies?  Or that the ‘alternative health’ industry is characterized by inflated claims, poor science, and outright lies?

Yep, I agree with both of those statements.  I also think that alternative health has a lot to offer anyway. Funny, I found 27 citations where yoga’s effect on asthma was studied.  You ‘feel’ that yoga is therapeudic for asthma.  I reviewed the scientific articles and ‘feel’ that yoga appears to be benifical as a relaxation excercise to help relieve the stress of an acute asthma attack.

My sister-in-law says that she thinks just being active in any form helps with asthma.  YMMV. Loki

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I have to say that I am relieved to read this post from Cindy. I have been following this newsgroup meticulously for the last several months, after accompanying my girlfriend to the ER, and have found it tremendously helpful. Especially the two traditional experts, Colin & Ellis, who take an extraordinary amount of time to look into everyone’s questions and share their their knowledge with all of us. On the other hand, I too have had quite extensive experience with ‘the medical establishment,’ as well as so-called alternative medicine. I have also worked as a scientist in the biotech industry. Although "do the science first" is a nice slogan, I would not discard something out of hand just because of a lack of studies, nor would I accept it with open arms just because the studies were done to a particular standard. These data are just part of what we (or anyway I) use in evaluating potential avenues of treatment. I apologize for posting – since I do not myself have asthma, I don’t wish to be disruptive to the discussions going on. But the threads here have been very helpful for me in trying to understand what is up with my friend, and trying to be helpful myself. While I want to reiterate my appreciation of Colin & Ellis, I have also appreciated those who have posted with other approaches. What Cindy posted applies to me as well. Thanks again for providing a passive listener with an education. Jim

Response:

Under the Usenet heirachary, the ‘alt’ in alt support asthma simply refers to…<snip.  It does not imply that the group discusses alternative medicines.

I never said it implied the discussion of alternative medicine.  Reading your post(s)  has always given me the impression that the heavy traditional science was all you wish  to give any credence to.  I see the group as one that should be open to all ideas.  The original post which started this thread was from a someone who said she was having some success, she felt, from a special diet.  You said that her approach was generally considered a waste of time.  I felt and still feel that that is inappropriate.  An alt group, as opposed to a sci group, to me, should welcome her successes despite the lack of science involved. Lets look at it this way, you support alternative treatments while I am sceptical of anything that is not based on solid science. One difference between us is that I go and review the scientific literature on something before I try it.  If this lack perspective, can you explain exactly why?

This is okay for you, but you share your opinions on this newsgroup, and I wish to provide another view.  I’ve never seen you acknowledge that the scientists might be  wrong, just a little bit… sometimes. Whatever happened to "it doesn’t hurt to try"?!  We’re talking about Vitamin C here !  How closed-minded can you get? Would it hurt to try an ozone generator? (Yes!)

Big diff between Vitamin C and an ozone generator. Would it hurt to try ‘Traditional Chinese Herbs’? (Yes!)

probably not Anyway, why should somebody waste thier money on remedies that lack scientific basis?  As a nurse I expect that you were taught the importance of practicing scientific medicine, why should you have a problem with my pointing out what the scientific studies have found?  Isn’t this information that should be considered before a decision to try a particular remedy is made?

I don’t have any problem with you pointing out the scientific evidence. My problem is you act like it’s the only game in town.  As a nurse, I’m all too familiar with the shortcomings of traditional, scientific medicine.  I have a feelng you don’t really know how severe the shortcomings are.  I’ve never advocated alternative medicine as a total replacement for the traditional stuff, nor will I anytime soon.  But I do feel that there are alternatives which can decrease our dependence on prescription medications.  Many seem to agree with me. And isn’t it just as reasonable for others to point out how little actual science supports most of these remedies?  Or that the ‘alternative health’ industry is characterized by inflated claims, poor science, and outright lies?

It is okay to point out any lack of science.  Profits and politics play a big role in the lack of science supporting alternative treatments. Many individuals are receiving benefits from the therapies you scorn. One success story shared is worth ten times more than all of your skepticism. It is also unfair to say the alternative health industry is ‘characterized’ by "inflated claims, poor science, and outright lies." There are some problems, yes, but by and large it is made up of honest practitioners trying to help others.  I feel I was ripped off  by allergy shots years ago.  I feel I was lied to when I agreed to get the shots, thinking they would make my asthma better.  Lies and inflated claims are everywhere. Funny, I found 27 citations where yoga’s effect on asthma was studied.  You ‘feel’ that yoga is therapeudic for asthma.  I reviewed the scientific articles and ‘feel’ that yoga appears to be benifical as a relaxation excercise to help relieve the stress of an acute asthma attack.

I was (and am) so convinced of the benefits of yoga, I didn’t need to do the latest search.  Funny, my ‘feelings’ are based on actually having <done something, while yours are based on, well, basically somebody else’s feelings.  What’s wrong with this picture? There was more in my last post I thought for sure you’d respond too. Oh, well. Peace and good health. Cindy

Response:

Exactly my point.  If it cannot produce a measureable result, then it should be viewed with scepticism.  I look for measureable, objective results.  Anything that cannot provide measureable objective results is mply a waste of time and money.

Your skepticism would be valid if  traditional medicine was doing a better job…. but when it comes to chronic conditions like asthma, I think we have failed to make real progress at anything but symptom relief.  You may think certain approaches are a waste of time and money, but many of us don’t.   Other approaches work for myself and for other people here.  Not cures, but meaningful improvements, such as when I gave up milk.   Earth to Colin:  This is an ALT. group! Not a sci. group, or whatever else is out there.  Speak from your own experience, if you can.  You’d be surprised how unhelpful quoting studies can be when done in excess or without perspective. Yes, it _may_ have a limited role in treating certian types of asthma. This is _not_ an endorsement of Vitamin C in treating asthma.  It would be _very_ premature for anybody to promote Vitamin C as an asthma treatment based on this evidence.

Whatever happened to "it doesn’t hurt to try"?!  We’re talking about Vitamin C here !  How closed-minded can you get? Of course there is _no_ study that concludes that any particular dietary supplement is effective in the treeatment of asthma.  Since there is no real evidence in support of the use of dietary supplements, we have to wonder about the credibility and honesty of the people marketing the stuff as asthma treatments. Remember that it is the responsibility fof the proponent of any particular method of treatment to provide support for thier claims.

We’re quite capable of defending ourselves from the snake oil salesmen without your help.  Like I said, this is a ALT group, so discussion about the possible benefits of dietary supplements or dietary modifications should be welcome!  Even ideas that haven’t suffered through the double blind , profit/politically-motivated medical-industrial complex should be heard out.  An example:  Dean Ornish, M.D. has shown the benefits of yoga, exercise, meditation and diet on heart disease, yet these ideas are making very little progress in the traditional medical establishment.   I feel that regular yoga is therapeutic for my asthma, and would probably be helpful for any asthmatic who could approach it with an open mind. I certainly will not wait for a study to prove it, and anybody wishing to make real progress with their asthma probably won’t either. You take skepticism too far for me. WRONG! Why do you think we use peak flow meters?  Because how we ‘feel’ is not a real accurate indication of our condition.  If you think you feel ok but you peak flows are dropping, then your asthma is definetaly _not_ better.

No, you’re wrong… How we feel is very accurate for those of us who are in tune with our bodies (it’s been excruciatingly accurate in my experience as a nurse). I’ve never used a peak flow with any regularity, nor will I ever. Asthmatics are a notoriously non-compliant bunch (ask any doctor).   The PFM can be helpful to someone who is new to asthma, or is having a hard time getting it under control, but few want to carry them around.  Those that do carry them can’t wait to get rid of them. Back to " how you feel…"  What’s the first question asked during a health assessment ("How do you feel?").  I’m sure it’s happened, but I’ve never seen an asthmatic present to an Emergency Room saying "My Peak Flows are down".  They’re there because they feel they can’t breathe ( and they’re peak flows <are down, yes).  Most are sent home without getting peak flows done, with only their own perception that they are breathing better ( and of course they’ve been cleared by the stethoscopes of nurse, RT, and MD). Asthma can be well-managed without the peak flow meter.  A lot of docs love them but most asthmatics hate them. You keep yours for a few more years and get back to me. I suggest that you ask your doctor about the process that results in bronchoconstriction.  Bronchoconstriction is linked to both the early phase and the late phase allergic response.  An allergen ‘insult’ does not directly cause bronchoconstriction, what it does is trigger an IgE and Mast Cell response which releases mediator chemicals which drives the proccesses involved in asthma.

why ask a doctor? what about a biology/medical/nursing textbook from my shelf?  I stated nothing to indicate I don’t know about the immune reponse. I gave up obsessing about the details on the process so many years ago.  I have many doctors at my disposal if needed.  I was merely questioning the accuracy of drug study methodologies.  They get many things right, but they’ve been very wrong before, too. Remember the ‘alt’ in alt.support.asthma ! I would have no problem as long as there is some real evidence that the therapy did in fact produce the improvements.  I am not willing to turn myself into a guiena pig trying a bunch of stuff that may do more harm than good.

Oh, but you <are a guinea pig.  Tell me you aren’t after you’ve used asthma drugs for many years and the side effects they weren’t sure about start popping up.  I had to have cataracts removed 2 years ago.  Too many corticosteroids at a young age is probably the culprit.  Tell me you aren’t a guinea pig when an alternative that was poo-poo ‘ed by the doctors shows real promise and you’ve been sticking the inhalers down your throat for way too many years than was necessary.  It could happen. I wish you nothing but health. Cindy

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Ditto, Ditto, Ditto, Cindy……We all appreciate someone watching our backs, but lets give people credit for being able to act on their own behalf also. Inez

Response:

Your skepticism would be valid if  traditional medicine was doing a better job…. but when it comes to chronic conditions like asthma, I think we have failed to make real progress at anything but symptom relief.  You may think certain approaches are a waste of time and money, but many of us don’t.   Other approaches work for myself and for other people here.  Not cures, but meaningful improvements, such as when I gave up milk.   Earth to Colin:  This is an ALT. group! Not a sci. group, or whatever else is out there.  Speak from your own experience, if you can.  You’d be surprised how unhelpful quoting studies can be when done in excess or without perspective.

Under the Usenet heirachary, the ‘alt’ in alt support asthma simply refers to groups that do not fall under the more ‘traditional’ Usenet catigories (sci. soc. biz. comp. etc.).  It does not imply that the group discusses alternative medicines. Lets look at it this way, you support alternative treatments while I am sceptical of anything that is not based on solid science. One difference between us is that I go and review the scientific literature on something before I try it.  If this lack perspective, can you explain exactly why? Whatever happened to "it doesn’t hurt to try"?!  We’re talking about Vitamin C here !  How closed-minded can you get?

Would it hurt to try an ozone generator? (Yes!) Would it hurt to try ‘Traditional Chinese Herbs’? (Yes!) Anyway, why should somebody waste thier money on remedies that lack scientific basis?  As a nurse I expect that you were taught the importance of practicing scientific medicine, why should you have a problem with my pointing out what the scientific studies have found?  Isn’t this information that should be considered before a decision to try a particular remedy is made? We’re quite capable of defending ourselves from the snake oil salesmen without your help.  Like I said, this is a ALT group, so discussion about the possible benefits of dietary supplements or dietary modifications should be welcome!  Even ideas that haven’t suffered through the double blind , profit/politically-motivated medical-industrial complex should be heard out.

And isn’t it just as reasonable for others to point out how little actual science supports most of these remedies?  Or that the ‘alternative health’ industry is characterized by inflated claims, poor science, and outright lies?   An example:  Dean Ornish, M.D. has shown the benefits of yoga, exercise, meditation and diet on heart disease, yet these ideas are making very little progress in the traditional medical establishment.   I feel that regular yoga is therapeutic for my asthma, and would probably be helpful for any asthmatic who could approach it with an open mind. I certainly will not wait for a study to prove it, and anybody wishing to make real progress with their asthma probably won’t either.

Funny, I found 27 citations where yoga’s effect on asthma was studied.  You ‘feel’ that yoga is therapeudic for asthma.  I reviewed the scientific articles and ‘feel’ that yoga appears to be benifical as a relaxation excercise to help relieve the stress of an acute asthma attack.

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