Question:

Knoxville

Response:

I also live in East Tennessee and  I agree with you.  I believe it is because of the mountains and the continuous weather changes and humidity;  I’m sure pollen and mold contribute also.  We have some pollution, but not much compared to other areas.  It’s beautiful though.  I live near Bristol.  Where do you live? Kathyw

Response:

On 4 Jun 2005 15:32:48 -0700, "Woody Long" <woodylon…@hotmail.com> wrote: >Bermuda, a small island in the middle of the Ocean.  No heavy industry, >very few cars.  HVAC is not needed most of the year as simply opening >the windows provides a comfortable temperature much of the year, and >the ocean breezes will blow out all those new carpet smells.  Would >moving there help? In a word, No.

Pollution is a problem there. See http://www.bermuda-online.org/environ.htm Pollution problems with resident population over 3,370 per square mile "Bermuda today is the third most densely populated place on earth" "Pollution has increased. The number of animals with cancer has increased significantly in recent years and was the main front page topic in the local Mid Ocean News newspaper of May 5, 2000. It has also caused severe mutation in and virtual extinction of some other small species of animals once common in Bermuda." http://www.bnt.bm/Environmental_and_Conservation/environmental_platfo… " Atmospheric pollution levels are gradually increasing in Bermuda, a portion of that increase is an unavoidable side effect of our burgeoning population" See http://www-as.harvard.edu/chemistry/trop/oldpictures/may2001.html A lot of surface ozone is blown in from North America.

Response:

We are basically in a valley here (between Smokies and Cumberlands), so a lot of the pollen, mold, and pollution gets trapped here.  Pollution is a biggie (Smokies are one of the most frequently visited National Parks–lots of car and natural pollution from them).  Very lush and green here–with high pollen and mold counts.  Rapidly growing area–lots of construction, road building, etc.  Car pollution from the interstates.  And I think we get a lot of pollution blowing up from Atlanta, Georgia. In spite of it all, this is one of the most beautiful places I’ve ever lived (along with Hawaii…lol…..)

Response:

I live in East Tennessee–which is one of the worst places to live if you’ve got sinus and asthma problems.  Probably the worst place I’ve lived (where my asthma became life-threatening) was Oahu, Hawaii.

Response:

tsr3 wrote: > I live in East Tennessee–which is one of the worst places to live if > you’ve got sinus and asthma problems.  

What’s the problem in East Tennessee?  Pollution?  Pollen?  Mold? > Probably the worst place I’ve > lived (where my asthma became life-threatening) was Oahu, Hawaii.

Volcanic ash is Mother Nature’s smog. — Steven D. Litvintchouk Email:  sdlit…@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Response:

I’ve always felt that vehicle exhaust is a major cause of health problems, including asthma. Bermuda is overrun and badly congested by motor vehicles. Even though it is an island, the constant fumes are probably behind the increase in health problems. "Woody Long" <woodylon…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:1117924368.551394.26400@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com… Bermuda, a small island in the middle of the Ocean.  No heavy industry, very few cars.  HVAC is not needed most of the year as simply opening the windows provides a comfortable temperature much of the year, and the ocean breezes will blow out all those new carpet smells.  Would moving there help? In a word, No. Hamilton, Bermuda, Mar 21 (Prensa Latina) Bermuda health officials say that asthma is reaching epidemic levels on the island, according to a Caribbean Media Corporation (CMC) report. Health professionals have formed a team to counter the asthma, which now affects about one in six of the population. Experts say they are puzzled as to the sudden increase in the cases of asthma here after a decade of decline. The disease, which can kill, affects one in four pre-schoolers and cannot be cured, although the symptoms can be dramatically reduced with careful handling. Registered nurse Liz Boden, founder of Asthma Charity Open Airways, said the disease is reaching epidemic levels in Bermuda. "We have seen a decline in hospital admissions for 10 years now the numbers are rising again. Why? We are not sure. This year we have seen an unusually large number of viruses, which have caused coughing, and wheezing even in people who have never had asthma." "Others who have had their asthma symptoms well controlled for years have been struggling. Many, many people have been visiting the emergency room (of the hospital) with acute asthma episodes," she said. Boden said March, April and May were the worst months in Bermuda for asthma because of the changeable weather and the flowers

Question:

Take my word for it. Having an obstruction in your nose is no fun, even if your theory is correct that you get more air to your lungs. I would much rather not cough my head off, blow my nose all the time, feel like I have a granddaddy of a cold and am generally ill, have teeth pain, visual

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – JAR The lack of honesty, I suppose one might call it, of your ENT is understandable. See the following authoritative sounding statement on http://www.bcm.tmc.edu/oto/grand/72194.html "NASAL OBSTRUCTION:……. July 21, 1994 Andrew L. de Jong, M.D. In most regions of the human body, the famous edict of Mies van der Rohe holds true — "form follows function." However, the reverse applies to rhinology: function is almost solely dependent on form. A troublesome and common complaint in the practice of Otolaryngology is that of nasal obstruction. We invest significant resources into the treatment of such complaints. In the United States alone, over 60 billion dollars a year is spent on the surgical treatment of this complaint." Dr. Julius Parow (and nobody else in the orthodox medical community so far) believed that resistance in the nose boosts rather than restricts flow of air into the lungs and in any case improves rather than worsens lung functions such as gas exchange during inhalation. The SIMT stuff would seem to confirm this in some respects. But the ruling medical doctrine remains that the nose is only to "warm, humidify and filter" the air. So the above and your own sad experience just seem to me to mean that doctors may well be out of their depths here. But I do believe that you can only get specific advice on your troubles from a doctor able to see and examine you. Even if doctors are really out of their depths, this does not mean that you should get specific advice (more especially on meds) via the Net. (:- ( The SIMT devices are just as available (presumably on prescription) in the States as here.  Sorry not to be more obliging. Regards, Richard. Richard, I had to question my ENT when he said mine was structural (deviated septum) but I have had symptoms (headaches when weather fronts come through) for as long as I can recall, so he could be right. Since living in a flooded house, I started  REALLY having trouble and the Mayo Mold theory then seemed more likely to me. For the time being, my ENT isn’t treating people as if he believes in it, which I find somewhat frustrating. I could be proved wrong in a few years when they finish testing the Mayo Theory. But that is how science is advanced -one microstep at a time. If you look at the literature, there is a really strong link though between simple Chronic Bronchitis (and they have no idea what causes that either), Asthma and Chronic Sinus problems. The last report I read said 70% of severe asthmatics will develop Chronic sinusitis within 2 years of their asthma diagnosis. And that is exactly how mine evolved – 2 years living in a moldy environment, I had a constantly stuffed up nose, which progressed to Post Nasal drip. Regardless, I am still not understanding the comment about airflow limitation in the nose and how that could help. My fault for skipping the articles relating to pressures. I ran into an article that was proposing that people with a certain shape "roof of the mouth" had more asthma problems because of these pressure changes. I rejected that article because I am an adult onset asthmatic and since the roof of my mouth didn’t change, it didn’t seem likely that the pressures in my lungs changed. It has often crossed my mind that as you look at Asthma, there are so many differences in the sufferers, there may be more than one cause. Do you know a general cost estimate and would you post it here? I mean if it durable?

Response:

JAR The lack of honesty, I suppose one might call it, of your ENT is understandable. See the following authoritative sounding statement on http://www.bcm.tmc.edu/oto/grand/72194.html "NASAL OBSTRUCTION:……. July 21, 1994 Andrew L. de Jong, M.D. In most regions of the human body, the famous edict of Mies van der Rohe holds true — "form follows function." However, the reverse applies to rhinology: function is almost solely dependent on form. A troublesome and common complaint in the practice of Otolaryngology is that of nasal obstruction. We invest significant resources into the treatment of such complaints. In the United States alone, over 60 billion dollars a year is spent on the surgical treatment of this complaint." Dr. Julius Parow (and nobody else in the orthodox medical community so far) believed that resistance in the nose boosts rather than restricts flow of air into the lungs and in any case improves rather than worsens lung functions such as gas exchange during inhalation. The SIMT stuff would seem to confirm this in some respects. But the ruling medical doctrine remains that the nose is only to "warm, humidify and filter" the air. So the above and your own sad experience just seem to me to mean that doctors may well be out of their depths here. But I do believe that you can only get specific advice on your troubles from a doctor able to see and examine you. Even if doctors are really out of their depths, this does not mean that you should get specific advice (more especially on meds) via the Net. (:- ( The SIMT devices are just as available (presumably on prescription) in the States as here.  Sorry not to be more obliging. Regards, Richard. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Richard, I had to question my ENT when he said mine was structural (deviated septum) but I have had symptoms (headaches when weather fronts come through) for as long as I can recall, so he could be right. Since living in a flooded house, I started  REALLY having trouble and the Mayo Mold theory then seemed more likely to me. For the time being, my ENT isn’t treating people as if he believes in it, which I find somewhat frustrating. I could be proved wrong in a few years when they finish testing the Mayo Theory. But that is how science is advanced -one microstep at a time. If you look at the literature, there is a really strong link though between simple Chronic Bronchitis (and they have no idea what causes that either), Asthma and Chronic Sinus problems. The last report I read said 70% of severe asthmatics will develop Chronic sinusitis within 2 years of their asthma diagnosis. And that is exactly how mine evolved – 2 years living in a moldy environment, I had a constantly stuffed up nose, which progressed to Post Nasal drip. Regardless, I am still not understanding the comment about airflow limitation in the nose and how that could help. My fault for skipping the articles relating to pressures. I ran into an article that was proposing that people with a certain shape "roof of the mouth" had more asthma problems because of these pressure changes. I rejected that article because I am an adult onset asthmatic and since the roof of my mouth didn’t change, it didn’t seem likely that the pressures in my lungs changed. It has often crossed my mind that as you look at Asthma, there are so many differences in the sufferers, there may be more than one cause. Do you know a general cost estimate and would you post it here? I mean if it

Response:

Richard, I had to question my ENT when he said mine was structural (deviated septum) but I have had symptoms (headaches when weather fronts come through) for as long as I can recall, so he could be right. Since living in a flooded house, I started  REALLY having trouble and the Mayo Mold theory then seemed more likely to me. For the time being, my ENT isn’t treating people as if he believes in it, which I find somewhat frustrating. I could be proved wrong in a few years when they finish testing the Mayo Theory. But that is how science is advanced -one microstep at a time. If you look at the literature, there is a really strong link though between simple Chronic Bronchitis (and they have no idea what causes that either), Asthma and Chronic Sinus problems. The last report I read said 70% of severe asthmatics will develop Chronic sinusitis within 2 years of their asthma diagnosis. And that is exactly how mine evolved – 2 years living in a moldy environment, I had a constantly stuffed up nose, which progressed to Post Nasal drip. Regardless, I am still not understanding the comment about airflow limitation in the nose and how that could help. My fault for skipping the articles relating to pressures. I ran into an article that was proposing that people with a certain shape "roof of the mouth" had more asthma problems because of these pressure changes. I rejected that article because I am an adult onset asthmatic and since the roof of my mouth didn’t change, it didn’t seem likely that the pressures in my lungs changed. It has often crossed my mind that as you look at Asthma, there are so many differences in the sufferers, there may be more than one cause. Do you know a general cost estimate and would you post it here? I mean if it

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I could not write anything on your comment about sinus troubles and SIMT. But Parow, whom I cited in another posting, said that sinus trouble was often due to being too civilized when clearing the nose. Disgusting noises and swallowing the mucus are healthier, he said, because the stuff is drawn out of the sinus cavities. The principle seemed to work on me when I had an eustachian tube infection. For me selling the equipment would not pay out because of the disproportionate amount of bookkeeping work involved here. This is due to strict tax legislation. Marketing would be much less attractive than in the States. In any case the ideal design does not seem to have been evolved. Probably a small PVC or silicone rubber body adapted to be gripped between the teeth and with an adjustable hole (choke) without any valve for exhaling (which would be thru the nose) would be all that is needed. Given the weak, slow acting but significant bronchiodilating effect asthmatics might well want to use the gadget in public without anybody noticing what they were up to. Might be an idea for an outfit specializing in boxing equipment and knowing about the tongue guards (right name?) held in the mouth necessary in fights. Count your lucky stars that Internet encounters do not get that rough.  Regards, Richard Friedel I didn’t mean it to be. I interested in the cost, and durability of the products and am too lazy to visit each site. You know, they used to think that asthma was improved by breathing in a bag, but that was disproved. Are you selling these devices by the way? Have just been running through the pro’s and con’s of an SIMT device (ultrabreathe) with an asthma professional, namely a breath therapist at a hospital (providing orthodox treatment) and having thirty years of asthma-physio behind him. He also had a wide knowledge of yoga, alternative breath therapy, and the physiological background. I pointed out that respiratory training using a resistance to flow has been around since 1800! He did show me a number of inspiratory/expiratory training devices which did not make such a decided claim to improving asthma (FEV1 and cough) as the supposedly "new generation" of SIMT devices like ultrabreathe. He also had practical experience with the Spirotiger. We looked at a device from Airx (see http://www.21stcenturymedical.com/airindeepex.html) whose inspiratory back pressure can be adjusted, but causing movement of a ball responsive to expiratory flow rate is also intended. So the device would really be unsuitable for Weiner-type workouts. Another much smaller device had a range of perforated caps to provide different inspiratory suction pressures. The asthma-professional did point out that placing one’s hand against the open mouth and sucking in air between the fingers could alleviate acute asthma symptoms. We agreed that a device able to be held in the mouth would be best (driving). Given that many must hope for a readily available "Weiner effect" (better FEV1, less cough) triumphing over the allegedly invincible foe, here’s my personal hunch about the ingredients of his success. Patient, progress-checked muscle training in a sort of fitness studio setting. Generalization of the effect produced.  That is to say, breathing with a higher suction pressure (=higher transpulmonary pressure differential) on a regular, integrated basis and not just in the special training setting. Then an asthmatic would automatically ward off attacks. It seems to me that such generalization is a logical consequence of Weiner’s intention. My idea is that such higher suction pressure is obtainable by training nose breathing, see work of Parow cited in earlier postings. I would plead for cautious optimism about SIMT and a commensurate rethink on the germ or gene theory of asthma. Regards, Richard Friedel Richard Friedel wrote : For me at least the idea of a simple asthma treatment or even cure is so attractive. No-one would deny the beauty, but how realistic is it ?  Don’t get me wrong, I love to daydream too, but you can stay in the bath only so long before your skin wrinkles. Many before us have taken the time to research why there is no simple asthma "cure".  Their discoveries allow us to understand more and more.  Questioning the research has allowed them (and us) to progress in our understanding. regarding SIMT: If the claims being made by the manufacturers that these devices are of value in asthma are based on their claims that the device works in a certain physiological way, and that premise is investigated and found to be "inconclusive", then all that these companies have is anecdotal reports that asthma symptoms are reduced. Well structured research should reveal whether the SIMT was the reason that asthmatics reported improvements – I would wonder whether the benefit comes from greater exercise of the lungs (associated with any physical exercise, I presume)? The catalogue for one of these devices claims "…..has been shown to reduce breathlessness and bring new-found freedom to people who, because of illness or advancing age, are restricted by shortness of breath."  But the manufacturers’ explanation as to how it achieves this benefit must be questioned for validity when respiratory function researchers in the US and UK find insufficient evidence to support the claims made.

Response:

I could not write anything on your comment about sinus troubles and SIMT. But Parow, whom I cited in another posting, said that sinus trouble was often due to being too civilized when clearing the nose. Disgusting noises and swallowing the mucus are healthier, he said, because the stuff is drawn out of the sinus cavities. The principle seemed to work on me when I had an eustachian tube infection. For me selling the equipment would not pay out because of the disproportionate amount of bookkeeping work involved here. This is due to strict tax legislation. Marketing would be much less attractive than in the States. In any case the ideal design does not seem to have been evolved. Probably a small PVC or silicone rubber body adapted to be gripped between the teeth and with an adjustable hole (choke) without any valve for exhaling (which would be thru the nose) would be all that is needed. Given the weak, slow acting but significant bronchiodilating effect asthmatics might well want to use the gadget in public without anybody noticing what they were up to. Might be an idea for an outfit specializing in boxing equipment and knowing about the tongue guards (right name?) held in the mouth necessary in fights. Count your lucky stars that Internet encounters do not get that rough.  Regards, Richard Friedel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I didn’t mean it to be. I interested in the cost, and durability of the products and am too lazy to visit each site. You know, they used to think that asthma was improved by breathing in a bag, but that was disproved. Are you selling these devices by the way? Have just been running through the pro’s and con’s of an SIMT device (ultrabreathe) with an asthma professional, namely a breath therapist at a hospital (providing orthodox treatment) and having thirty years of asthma-physio behind him. He also had a wide knowledge of yoga, alternative breath therapy, and the physiological background. I pointed out that respiratory training using a resistance to flow has been around since 1800! He did show me a number of inspiratory/expiratory training devices which did not make such a decided claim to improving asthma (FEV1 and cough) as the supposedly "new generation" of SIMT devices like ultrabreathe. He also had practical experience with the Spirotiger. We looked at a device from Airx (see http://www.21stcenturymedical.com/airindeepex.html) whose inspiratory back pressure can be adjusted, but causing movement of a ball responsive to expiratory flow rate is also intended. So the device would really be unsuitable for Weiner-type workouts. Another much smaller device had a range of perforated caps to provide different inspiratory suction pressures. The asthma-professional did point out that placing one’s hand against the open mouth and sucking in air between the fingers could alleviate acute asthma symptoms. We agreed that a device able to be held in the mouth would be best (driving). Given that many must hope for a readily available "Weiner effect" (better FEV1, less cough) triumphing over the allegedly invincible foe, here’s my personal hunch about the ingredients of his success. Patient, progress-checked muscle training in a sort of fitness studio setting. Generalization of the effect produced.  That is to say, breathing with a higher suction pressure (=higher transpulmonary pressure differential) on a regular, integrated basis and not just in the special training setting. Then an asthmatic would automatically ward off attacks. It seems to me that such generalization is a logical consequence of Weiner’s intention. My idea is that such higher suction pressure is obtainable by training nose breathing, see work of Parow cited in earlier postings. I would plead for cautious optimism about SIMT and a commensurate rethink on the germ or gene theory of asthma. Regards, Richard Friedel Richard Friedel wrote : For me at least the idea of a simple asthma treatment or even cure is so attractive. No-one would deny the beauty, but how realistic is it ?  Don’t get me wrong, I love to daydream too, but you can stay in the bath only so long before your skin wrinkles. Many before us have taken the time to research why there is no simple asthma "cure".  Their discoveries allow us to understand more and more.  Questioning the research has allowed them (and us) to progress in our understanding. regarding SIMT: If the claims being made by the manufacturers that these devices are of value in asthma are based on their claims that the device works in a certain physiological way, and that premise is investigated and found to be "inconclusive", then all that these companies have is anecdotal reports that asthma symptoms are reduced. Well structured research should reveal whether the SIMT was the reason that asthmatics reported improvements – I would wonder whether the benefit comes from greater exercise of the lungs (associated with any physical exercise, I presume)? The catalogue for one of these devices claims "…..has been shown to reduce breathlessness and bring new-found freedom to people who, because of illness or advancing age, are restricted by shortness of breath."  But the manufacturers’ explanation as to how it achieves this benefit must be questioned for validity when respiratory function researchers in the US and UK find insufficient evidence to support the claims made.

Response:

I didn’t mean it to be. I interested in the cost, and durability of the products and am too lazy to visit each site.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know, they used to think that asthma was improved by breathing in a bag, but that was disproved. Are you selling these devices by the way? Have just been running through the pro’s and con’s of an SIMT device (ultrabreathe) with an asthma professional, namely a breath therapist at a hospital (providing orthodox treatment) and having thirty years of asthma-physio behind him. He also had a wide knowledge of yoga, alternative breath therapy, and the physiological background. I pointed out that respiratory training using a resistance to flow has been around since 1800! He did show me a number of inspiratory/expiratory training devices which did not make such a decided claim to improving asthma (FEV1 and cough) as the supposedly "new generation" of SIMT devices like ultrabreathe. He also had practical experience with the Spirotiger. We looked at a device from Airx (see http://www.21stcenturymedical.com/airindeepex.html) whose inspiratory back pressure can be adjusted, but causing movement of a ball responsive to expiratory flow rate is also intended. So the device would really be unsuitable for Weiner-type workouts. Another much smaller device had a range of perforated caps to provide different inspiratory suction pressures. The asthma-professional did point out that placing one’s hand against the open mouth and sucking in air between the fingers could alleviate acute asthma symptoms. We agreed that a device able to be held in the mouth would be best (driving). Given that many must hope for a readily available "Weiner effect" (better FEV1, less cough) triumphing over the allegedly invincible foe, here’s my personal hunch about the ingredients of his success. Patient, progress-checked muscle training in a sort of fitness studio setting. Generalization of the effect produced.  That is to say, breathing with a higher suction pressure (=higher transpulmonary pressure differential) on a regular, integrated basis and not just in the special training setting. Then an asthmatic would automatically ward off attacks. It seems to me that such generalization is a logical consequence of Weiner’s intention. My idea is that such higher suction pressure is obtainable by training nose breathing, see work of Parow cited in earlier postings. I would plead for cautious optimism about SIMT and a commensurate rethink on the germ or gene theory of asthma. Regards, Richard Friedel Richard Friedel wrote : For me at least the idea of a simple asthma treatment or even cure is so attractive. No-one would deny the beauty, but how realistic is it ?  Don’t get me wrong, I love to daydream too, but you can stay in the bath only so long before your skin wrinkles. Many before us have taken the time to research why there is no simple asthma "cure".  Their discoveries allow us to understand more and more.  Questioning the research has allowed them (and us) to progress in our understanding. regarding SIMT: If the claims being made by the manufacturers that these devices are of value in asthma are based on their claims that the device works in a certain physiological way, and that premise is investigated and found to be "inconclusive", then all that these companies have is anecdotal reports that asthma symptoms are reduced. Well structured research should reveal whether the SIMT was the reason that asthmatics reported improvements – I would wonder whether the benefit comes from greater exercise of the lungs (associated with any physical exercise, I presume)? The catalogue for one of these devices claims "…..has been shown to reduce breathlessness and bring new-found freedom to people who, because of illness or advancing age, are restricted by shortness of breath."  But the manufacturers’ explanation as to how it achieves this benefit must be questioned for validity when respiratory function researchers in the US and UK find insufficient evidence to support the claims made.

Response:

You know, they used to think that asthma was improved by breathing in a bag, but that was disproved. Are you selling these devices by the way?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have just been running through the pro’s and con’s of an SIMT device (ultrabreathe) with an asthma professional, namely a breath therapist at a hospital (providing orthodox treatment) and having thirty years of asthma-physio behind him. He also had a wide knowledge of yoga, alternative breath therapy, and the physiological background. I pointed out that respiratory training using a resistance to flow has been around since 1800! He did show me a number of inspiratory/expiratory training devices which did not make such a decided claim to improving asthma (FEV1 and cough) as the supposedly "new generation" of SIMT devices like ultrabreathe. He also had practical experience with the Spirotiger. We looked at a device from Airx (see http://www.21stcenturymedical.com/airindeepex.html) whose inspiratory back pressure can be adjusted, but causing movement of a ball responsive to expiratory flow rate is also intended. So the device would really be unsuitable for Weiner-type workouts. Another much smaller device had a range of perforated caps to provide different inspiratory suction pressures. The asthma-professional did point out that placing one’s hand against the open mouth and sucking in air between the fingers could alleviate acute asthma symptoms. We agreed that a device able to be held in the mouth would be best (driving). Given that many must hope for a readily available "Weiner effect" (better FEV1, less cough) triumphing over the allegedly invincible foe, here’s my personal hunch about the ingredients of his success. Patient, progress-checked muscle training in a sort of fitness studio setting. Generalization of the effect produced.  That is to say, breathing with a higher suction pressure (=higher transpulmonary pressure differential) on a regular, integrated basis and not just in the special training setting. Then an asthmatic would automatically ward off attacks. It seems to me that such generalization is a logical consequence of Weiner’s intention. My idea is that such higher suction pressure is obtainable by training nose breathing, see work of Parow cited in earlier postings. I would plead for cautious optimism about SIMT and a commensurate rethink on the germ or gene theory of asthma. Regards, Richard Friedel Richard Friedel wrote : For me at least the idea of a simple asthma treatment or even cure is so attractive. No-one would deny the beauty, but how realistic is it ?  Don’t get me wrong, I love to daydream too, but you can stay in the bath only so long before your skin wrinkles. Many before us have taken the time to research why there is no simple asthma "cure".  Their discoveries allow us to understand more and more.  Questioning the research has allowed them (and us) to progress in our understanding. regarding SIMT: If the claims being made by the manufacturers that these devices are of value in asthma are based on their claims that the device works in a certain physiological way, and that premise is investigated and found to be "inconclusive", then all that these companies have is anecdotal reports that asthma symptoms are reduced. Well structured research should reveal whether the SIMT was the reason that asthmatics reported improvements – I would wonder whether the benefit comes from greater exercise of the lungs (associated with any physical exercise, I presume)? The catalogue for one of these devices claims "…..has been shown to reduce breathlessness and bring new-found freedom to people who, because of illness or advancing age, are restricted by shortness of breath."  But the manufacturers’ explanation as to how it achieves this benefit must be questioned for validity when respiratory function researchers in the US and UK find insufficient evidence to support the claims made.

Response:

Have just been running through the pro’s and con’s of an SIMT device (ultrabreathe) with an asthma professional, namely a breath therapist at a hospital (providing orthodox treatment) and having thirty years of asthma-physio behind him. He also had a wide knowledge of yoga, alternative breath therapy, and the physiological background. I pointed out that respiratory training using a resistance to flow has been around since 1800! He did show me a number of inspiratory/expiratory training devices which did not make such a decided claim to improving asthma (FEV1 and cough) as the supposedly "new generation" of SIMT devices like ultrabreathe. He also had practical experience with the Spirotiger. We looked at a device from Airx (see http://www.21stcenturymedical.com/airindeepex.html) whose inspiratory back pressure can be adjusted, but causing movement of a ball responsive to expiratory flow rate is also intended. So the device would really be unsuitable for Weiner-type workouts. Another much smaller device had a range of perforated caps to provide different inspiratory suction pressures. The asthma-professional did point out that placing one’s hand against the open mouth and sucking in air between the fingers could alleviate acute asthma symptoms. We agreed that a device able to be held in the mouth would be best (driving). Given that many must hope for a readily available "Weiner effect" (better FEV1, less cough) triumphing over the allegedly invincible foe, here’s my personal hunch about the ingredients of his success. Patient, progress-checked muscle training in a sort of fitness studio setting. Generalization of the effect produced.  That is to say, breathing with a higher suction pressure (=higher transpulmonary pressure differential) on a regular, integrated basis and not just in the special training setting. Then an asthmatic would automatically ward off attacks. It seems to me that such generalization is a logical consequence of Weiner’s intention. My idea is that such higher suction pressure is obtainable by training nose breathing, see work of Parow cited in earlier postings. I would plead for cautious optimism about SIMT and a commensurate rethink on the germ or gene theory of asthma. Regards, Richard Friedel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Richard Friedel wrote : For me at least the idea of a simple asthma treatment or even cure is so attractive. No-one would deny the beauty, but how realistic is it ?  Don’t get me wrong, I love to daydream too, but you can stay in the bath only so long before your skin wrinkles. Many before us have taken the time to research why there is no simple asthma "cure".  Their discoveries allow us to understand more and more.  Questioning the research has allowed them (and us) to progress in our understanding. regarding SIMT: If the claims being made by the manufacturers that these devices are of value in asthma are based on their claims that the device works in a certain physiological way, and that premise is investigated and found to be "inconclusive", then all that these companies have is anecdotal reports that asthma symptoms are reduced. Well structured research should reveal whether the SIMT was the reason that asthmatics reported improvements – I would wonder whether the benefit comes from greater exercise of the lungs (associated with any physical exercise, I presume)? The catalogue for one of these devices claims "…..has been shown to reduce breathlessness and bring new-found freedom to people who, because of illness or advancing age, are restricted by shortness of breath."  But the manufacturers’ explanation as to how it achieves this benefit must be questioned for validity when respiratory function researchers in the US and UK find insufficient evidence to support the claims made.

Response:

Richard Friedel wrote : For me at least the idea of a simple asthma treatment or even cure is so attractive.

No-one would deny the beauty, but how realistic is it ?  Don’t get me wrong, I love to daydream too, but you can stay in the bath only so long before your skin wrinkles. Many before us have taken the time to research why there is no simple asthma "cure".  Their discoveries allow us to understand more and more.  Questioning the research has allowed them (and us) to progress in our understanding. regarding SIMT: If the claims being made by the manufacturers that these devices are of value in asthma are based on their claims that the device works in a certain physiological way, and that premise is investigated and found to be "inconclusive", then all that these companies have is anecdotal reports that asthma symptoms are reduced. Well structured research should reveal whether the SIMT was the reason that asthmatics reported improvements – I would wonder whether the benefit comes from greater exercise of the lungs (associated with any physical exercise, I presume)? The catalogue for one of these devices claims "…..has been shown to reduce breathlessness and bring new-found freedom to people who, because of illness or advancing age, are restricted by shortness of breath."  But the manufacturers’ explanation as to how it achieves this benefit must be questioned for validity when respiratory function researchers in the US and UK find insufficient evidence to support the claims made.

Response:

For me at least the idea of a simple asthma treatment or even cure is so attractive. The basic notion of Weiner is to open up a war on a second front against constriction of the airways in asthma, namely by mobilizing the power of the muscles to provide enough opening suction pressure. Left to themselves an asthmatic’s inspiratory muscles do not team up,  despite frantic efforts, to provide the suction pressure in an attack. This was my own tragic experience. My parents’ gut feeling was "It’s his nerves. Some day he’ll pull himself together and breathe normally". It seems that there was more than a grain of truth in this. Anyway this is my feeling about Weiner and SIMT. It is all at least food for thought.  More especially, the notion of an asthmatic training by inspiring through a 3 square millimeter hole (an area of 0.0046497 square inch) and expiring freely and then feeling a benefit does open up a new horizon. The studies cited by you are not concerned with asthmatics. On the question of scrutiny, how about the basic principle of spirometry that omits nose flow resistance? Peers may say what they want, but to me this principle is plain illogical. It seems to be based on the idea that nose resistance is always a disadvantage and is the price to be paid for the accepted fuctions of that organ, namely (only) warming, humidifying and filtering the air we breathe. Can any lurking peer explain the exclusion of a useful job being done? Richard Friedel "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler" Einstein. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The number of products claiming to benefit patients and athletes is numerous;  there is limited peer-reviewed research into each device’s effectiveness. Two recent papers would suggest that manufacturer’s claims should be scrutinised carefully. Evaluation of an inspiratory muscle trainer in healthy humans N. HART, K. SYLVESTER, S. WARD, D. CRAMER, J. MOXHAM, M. I. POLKEY p 526-531, Volume 95, Number 6, June 2001 Respiratory Medicine http://www.harcourt-international.com/journals/rmed/previous.cfm?art=… Effects of respiratory muscle training versus placebo on endurance exercise performance. Sonetti DA, Wetter TJ, Pegelow DF, Dempsey JA. Respir Physiol 2001 Sep;127(2-3):185-99 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&…

Response:

The number of products claiming to benefit patients and athletes is numerous;  there is limited peer-reviewed research into each device’s effectiveness. Two recent papers would suggest that manufacturer’s claims should be scrutinised carefully. Evaluation of an inspiratory muscle trainer in healthy humans N. HART, K. SYLVESTER, S. WARD, D. CRAMER, J. MOXHAM, M. I. POLKEY p 526-531, Volume 95, Number 6, June 2001 Respiratory Medicine http://www.harcourt-international.com/journals/rmed/previous.cfm?art=… Effects of respiratory muscle training versus placebo on endurance exercise performance. Sonetti DA, Wetter TJ, Pegelow DF, Dempsey JA. Respir Physiol 2001 Sep;127(2-3):185-99 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&…

Response:

I am sorry, but I am completely lost. If you are saying that nasal resistance will increase diaphragmatic breathing and that is somehow a good thing, I have to say that I disagree. I have severe Chronic Sinus problems so that my nose is always stuffed up and it has made my asthma like condition unbearable. Furthermore, I have yet to see how this method addresses mucus secretions, or inflation for that matter.

That’s a good question.  Like you (and many others here) I have chronic sinusitis.  Exacerbations of sinus infection/congestion are usually a precursor to my asthma symptoms.  The proponents of various breathing methods seem to focus on the mechanics of breathing, and totally ignore the atopic nature of the underlying disease.

Response:

I am sorry, but I am completely lost. If you are saying that nasal resistance will increase diaphragmatic breathing and that is somehow a good thing, I have to say that I disagree. I have severe Chronic Sinus problems so that my nose is always stuffed up and it has made my asthma like condition unbearable. Furthermore, I have yet to see how this method addresses mucus secretions, or inflation for that matter.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My experience with the one SIMT device was that instead of being centered somewhere in the upper chest, breathing went further down. The diaphragm goes down further, because, it seems, there is more resistance to stimulate or trigger it. Then one can train one’s nose to provide this resistance  and so achieve (better) diaphragmatic breathing. According to one authority (Dr. Julius Parow, died 15 years ago) the diaphragm only has resistance in the upper airways as its necessary antagonist. So failure to breathe diaphragmatically is in part a question of nasal (or throat) resistance to air flow. If I breathe in something irritating my upper lung airways, increasing nose resistance on purpose tends to stop the effect. Weiner does note a beneficial effect on cough. On hyperinflation, Weiner gets the inspiratory muscles properly teamed up owing to the higher suction pressure demanded. Just breathing vigorously will not do this, witness the effect of asthma attacks. In other words: an SIMT device seems to have a moderate reliever spray effect which may well lead to the nose being trained to provide this effect naturally and automatically. This seems to offend against the current asthma paradigm, which does not consider manipulating pressures in the lungs to overcome constriction of airways in them and does not look upon the diaphragm’s action as being dependent on resistance. Regards, Richard Friedel P.S. I’m sending you the Weiner reference separately. Please excuse some miscanned numbers of references. It isn’t clear to me that a muscle training device will help with mucus secretion. The second part of the process is inflammation and not hyperinflation, although hyperinflation can result. I didn’t read the original article, but it seems like Weiner’s approach doesn’t follow the currently agreed on 2 components of asthma and  would assume that is why his work isn’t getting attention. Are you saying that developing the ability to breathe deeply will somehow change asthma ? Is that exacerbations, or incidence? You may recall the volunteer at Hopkins who died last year? They were studying and had about proved that the smooth muscles in the airways constrict and narrow in everyone’s lungs  when exposed to allergens or irritants, but people without asthma are able to breathe in deeply to relax the airways and rid the lungs of the irritant. When asthmatics try to take those same deep breaths, their airways do not relax and the patients pant for breath. Smooth muscles in the airways of people with asthma may have a defect, perhaps a deficiency in a critical chemical that prevents the muscles from relaxing. Weiner’s approach is to train the muscles to get the normal strength to open the airways. The wording "their airways do not relax" seems tendentious. Weiner says "Asthmatic patients are exposed to airway obstruction and hyperinflation. Airway resistance is increased up to 15 times normal but it is probably the concomitant hyperinflation that impairs the capacity of the respiratory muscles to handle this load." See discussion, 2nd paragraph, in his paper (Chest, 1992, 1357-61). You say first "Are you saying that developing the ability to breathe deeply will somehow change asthma?" Based on my personal experience with one type of SIMT device, my answer is definitely yes. The training itself is so massively different to normal breathing as to lead to the conclusion that (a) massive changes in breathing and in forces in the chest are possible and (b)lung tissue lesions may well be due to dysfunctional breathing. Training gives you an idea of the power of options possible with the lungs. You hold the sort of bit of the SIMT device firmly between your teeth and then inhale using the full power of your chest. All the air has to pass through a hole with a cross sectional area of 3 sq. mm! Exhaling takes place freely through a check valve. The resulting suction head when inhaling  may be around 30 cms of water. This represents a radical change in the forces exerted on and in the lung.  The same applies for breathing in an attack of asthma. In this context I for one have difficulties in believing that another factor, a germ or gene, is needed to explain lung lesions in asthma and the possibility that the question of dysfunctional breathing deserves a much higher priority is very real. Regards, Richard Friedel "The community stagnates without the impulse of the individual. The impulse dies away without the sympathy of the community." William James

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In short, the germ or gene theory of asthma (the key stone of pharmaceutical claims) has been around long enough and has only been associated with an asthma epidemic. Its proponents should produce solid proof or climb down. Regards, Richard Friedel Why don’t you apply the same criteria to buteyko? A good idea? An excellent idea. Glad you approve. My reasons for believing that Buteyko should not be recommended are as follows: Professor Buteyko never experienced asthma himself. The idea of training extremely long breath-holds of anything up to 3+ minutes is based on oriental techniques, more especially Taoism, and does not logically link with asthma. The Taoists wanted to prolong life with such practices. All breathing protocols and more especially the more extreme ones (f. i. so-called "rebirthing") have a hypnotic, brain-washing effect.  Fine if you get hooked on a healthy one, but generally beware. The Buteyko proponents do not seem to understand the ventilation-perfusion mismatch side of asthma, which is very important. There seems to be no evidence that forcing the asthmatic lung to "operate" with a higher level of carbon dioxide (instead of the lower one often encountered in the disease) actually corrects this mismatch and heals the lung.  It seems to be a question of unfruitful symptom suppression, which the Buteyko patients cannot correctly perceive owing a lack of medical education and owing to the said hypnotic effects.

I agree with all but the part about asthmatics having lowered CO2’s – except, of course, during an acute exacerbation. The fact is that the considered opinion of patients and of physicians rejects Buteyko; this might possibly be a "conspiracy", but then so many other things could, with a stretch of imagination, be put in this category. One might have more sympathy with Buteyko if it produced intelligent, fruitful criticism of mainstream asthma approaches instead of promulgating badly translated Russian studies for the students to parrot if pressed for a scientific explanation. The claim currently put out by one prominent Buteykoist that "As you advance, you should find that Buteyko therapy is a very pleasant experience, if  you’re doing it right." is an example of moral insanity. That seems to be the truth.

I couldn’t have said itbetter myself. What people must think about my own character and integrity in view of my record here is another matter.

Opinions can change. — CBI, MD "Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." -Andre Gide

Response:

My experience with the one SIMT device was that instead of being centered somewhere in the upper chest, breathing went further down. The diaphragm goes down further, because, it seems, there is more resistance to stimulate or trigger it. Then one can train one’s nose to provide this resistance  and so achieve (better) diaphragmatic breathing. According to one authority (Dr. Julius Parow, died 15 years ago) the diaphragm only has resistance in the upper airways as its necessary antagonist. So failure to breathe diaphragmatically is in part a question of nasal (or throat) resistance to air flow. If I breathe in something irritating my upper lung airways, increasing nose resistance on purpose tends to stop the effect. Weiner does note a beneficial effect on cough. On hyperinflation, Weiner gets the inspiratory muscles properly teamed up owing to the higher suction pressure demanded. Just breathing vigorously will not do this, witness the effect of asthma attacks. In other words: an SIMT device seems to have a moderate reliever spray effect which may well lead to the nose being trained to provide this effect naturally and automatically. This seems to offend against the current asthma paradigm, which does not consider manipulating pressures in the lungs to overcome constriction of airways in them and does not look upon the diaphragm’s action as being dependent on resistance. Regards, Richard Friedel P.S. I’m sending you the Weiner reference separately. Please excuse some miscanned numbers of references. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It isn’t clear to me that a muscle training device will help with mucus secretion. The second part of the process is inflammation and not hyperinflation, although hyperinflation can result. I didn’t read the original article, but it seems like Weiner’s approach doesn’t follow the currently agreed on 2 components of asthma and  would assume that is why his work isn’t getting attention. Are you saying that developing the ability to breathe deeply will somehow change asthma ? Is that exacerbations, or incidence? You may recall the volunteer at Hopkins who died last year? They were studying and had about proved that the smooth muscles in the airways constrict and narrow in everyone’s lungs  when exposed to allergens or irritants, but people without asthma are able to breathe in deeply to relax the airways and rid the lungs of the irritant. When asthmatics try to take those same deep breaths, their airways do not relax and the patients pant for breath. Smooth muscles in the airways of people with asthma may have a defect, perhaps a deficiency in a critical chemical that prevents the muscles from relaxing. Weiner’s approach is to train the muscles to get the normal strength to open the airways. The wording "their airways do not relax" seems tendentious. Weiner says "Asthmatic patients are exposed to airway obstruction and hyperinflation. Airway resistance is increased up to 15 times normal but it is probably the concomitant hyperinflation that impairs the capacity of the respiratory muscles to handle this load." See discussion, 2nd paragraph, in his paper (Chest, 1992, 1357-61). You say first "Are you saying that developing the ability to breathe deeply will somehow change asthma?" Based on my personal experience with one type of SIMT device, my answer is definitely yes. The training itself is so massively different to normal breathing as to lead to the conclusion that (a) massive changes in breathing and in forces in the chest are possible and (b)lung tissue lesions may well be due to dysfunctional breathing. Training gives you an idea of the power of options possible with the lungs. You hold the sort of bit of the SIMT device firmly between your teeth and then inhale using the full power of your chest. All the air has to pass through a hole with a cross sectional area of 3 sq. mm! Exhaling takes place freely through a check valve. The resulting suction head when inhaling  may be around 30 cms of water. This represents a radical change in the forces exerted on and in the lung.  The same applies for breathing in an attack of asthma. In this context I for one have difficulties in believing that another factor, a germ or gene, is needed to explain lung lesions in asthma and the possibility that the question of dysfunctional breathing deserves a much higher priority is very real. Regards, Richard Friedel "The community stagnates without the impulse of the individual. The impulse dies away without the sympathy of the community." William James

Response:

Sorry about all the posts. Outlook express is crashing and when I start it again, my post is still in the Outbox and it sends it right away before I can get it deleted. There has to be a way to stop that. This is so irritating. One person I know, who has tried many asthma therapies reported his doctors had provided him with a "flutter" breathing device. Is that similar to the devices you have tried? Let me say that I had been wondering about FEV1 (obstruction) testing and its validity for asthma diagnosis and spent time looking into it. Based on the current literature, it seems that AAAI is looking to change to diffusion capacity as the "test" of the severity of asthma and to the NO test for asthma itself due to problems with the obstruction test. People I know who use their lungs professionally like singers and trumpet players are more likely to have normal FEV1 results, but still asthma symptoms, so, although a reduction in FEV1 is the current definition of asthma, that may not hold true in the near future. I even personally know a little kid who broke my peak flow meter because his breath control is so good as a result of playing the trumpet, who still has ER asthma visits. My understanding of asthma is that it has two components and that mucus hypersecretion is one "part", and is the main problem for severe asthmatics- the inability to get breath because of mucus plugging (explains the trend to diffusion capacity testing as a measure of the degree of disability).  It isn’t clear to me that a muscle training device will help with mucus secretion. The second part of the process is inflammation and not hyperinflation, although hyperinflation can result. I didn’t read the original article, but it seems like Weiner’s approach doesn’t follow the currently agreed on 2 components of asthma and  would assume that is why his work isn’t getting attention.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you saying that developing the ability to breathe deeply will somehow change asthma ? Is that exacerbations, or incidence? You may recall the volunteer at Hopkins who died last year? They were studying and had about proved that the smooth muscles in the airways constrict and narrow in everyone’s lungs  when exposed to allergens or irritants, but people without asthma are able to breathe in deeply to relax the airways and rid the lungs of the irritant. When asthmatics try to take those same deep breaths, their airways do not relax and the patients pant for breath. Smooth muscles in the airways of people with asthma may have a defect, perhaps a deficiency in a critical chemical that prevents the muscles from relaxing. Weiner’s approach is to train the muscles to get the normal strength to open the airways. The wording "their airways do not relax" seems tendentious. Weiner says "Asthmatic patients are exposed to airway obstruction and hyperinflation. Airway resistance is increased up to 15 times normal but it is probably the concomitant hyperinflation that impairs the capacity of the respiratory muscles to handle this load." See discussion, 2nd paragraph, in his paper (Chest, 1992, 1357-61). You say first "Are you saying that developing the ability to breathe deeply will somehow change asthma?" Based on my personal experience with one type of SIMT device, my answer is definitely yes. The training itself is so massively different to normal breathing as to lead to the conclusion that (a) massive changes in breathing and in forces in the chest are possible and (b)lung tissue lesions may well be due to dysfunctional breathing. Training gives you an idea of the power of options possible with the lungs. You hold the sort of bit of the SIMT device firmly between your teeth and then inhale using the full power of your chest. All the air has to pass through a hole with a cross sectional area of 3 sq. mm! Exhaling takes place freely through a check valve. The resulting suction head when inhaling  may be around 30 cms of water. This represents a radical change in the forces exerted on and in the lung.  The same applies for breathing in an attack of asthma. In this context I for one have difficulties in believing that another factor, a germ or gene, is needed to explain lung lesions in asthma and the possibility that the question of dysfunctional breathing deserves a much higher priority is very real. Regards, Richard Friedel "The community stagnates without the impulse of the individual. The impulse dies away without the sympathy of the community." William James

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you saying that developing the ability to breathe deeply will somehow change asthma ? Is that exacerbations, or incidence? You may recall the volunteer at Hopkins who died last year? They were studying and had about proved that the smooth muscles in the airways constrict and narrow in everyone’s lungs  when exposed to allergens or irritants, but people without asthma are able to breathe in deeply to relax the airways and rid the lungs of the irritant. When asthmatics try to take those same deep breaths, their airways do not relax and the patients pant for breath. Smooth muscles in the airways of people with asthma may have a defect, perhaps a deficiency in a critical chemical that prevents the muscles from relaxing.

Weiner’s approach is to train the muscles to get the normal strength to open the airways. The wording "their airways do not relax" seems tendentious. Weiner says "Asthmatic patients are exposed to airway obstruction and hyperinflation. Airway resistance is increased up to 15 times normal but it is probably the concomitant hyperinflation that impairs the capacity of the respiratory muscles to handle this load." See discussion, 2nd paragraph, in his paper (Chest, 1992, 1357-61). You say first "Are you saying that developing the ability to breathe deeply will somehow change asthma?" Based on my personal experience with one type of SIMT device, my answer is definitely yes. The training itself is so massively different to normal breathing as to lead to the conclusion that (a) massive changes in breathing and in forces in the chest are possible and (b)lung tissue lesions may well be due to dysfunctional breathing. Training gives you an idea of the power of options possible with the lungs. You hold the sort of bit of the SIMT device firmly between your teeth and then inhale using the full power of your chest. All the air has to pass through a hole with a cross sectional area of 3 sq. mm! Exhaling takes place freely through a check valve. The resulting suction head when inhaling  may be around 30 cms of water. This represents a radical change in the forces exerted on and in the lung.  The same applies for breathing in an attack of asthma. In this context I for one have difficulties in believing that another factor, a germ or gene, is needed to explain lung lesions in asthma and the possibility that the question of dysfunctional breathing deserves a much higher priority is very real. Regards, Richard Friedel "The community stagnates without the impulse of the individual. The impulse dies away without the sympathy of the community." William James

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In short, the germ or gene theory of asthma (the key stone of pharmaceutical claims) has been around long enough and has only been associated with an asthma epidemic. Its proponents should produce solid proof or climb down. Regards, Richard Friedel Why don’t you apply the same criteria to buteyko? A good idea? An excellent idea.

Glad you approve. My reasons for believing that Buteyko should not be recommended are as follows: Professor Buteyko never experienced asthma himself. The idea of training extremely long breath-holds of anything up to 3+ minutes is based on oriental techniques, more especially Taoism, and does not logically link with asthma. The Taoists wanted to prolong life with such practices. All breathing protocols and more especially the more extreme ones (f. i. so-called "rebirthing") have a hypnotic, brain-washing effect.  Fine if you get hooked on a healthy one, but generally beware. The Buteyko proponents do not seem to understand the ventilation-perfusion mismatch side of asthma, which is very important. There seems to be no evidence that forcing the asthmatic lung to "operate" with a higher level of carbon dioxide (instead of the lower one often encountered in the disease) actually corrects this mismatch and heals the lung.  It seems to be a question of unfruitful symptom suppression, which the Buteyko patients cannot correctly perceive owing a lack of medical education and owing to the said hypnotic effects. The fact is that the considered opinion of patients and of physicians rejects Buteyko; this might possibly be a "conspiracy", but then so many other things could, with a stretch of imagination, be put in this category. One might have more sympathy with Buteyko if it produced intelligent, fruitful criticism of mainstream asthma approaches instead of promulgating badly translated Russian studies for the students to parrot if pressed for a scientific explanation. The claim currently put out by one prominent Buteykoist that "As you advance, you should find that Buteyko therapy is a very pleasant experience, if  you’re doing it right." is an example of moral insanity. That seems to be the truth.  What people must think about my own character and integrity in view of my record here is another matter. Regards, Richard Friedel

Response:

Are you saying that developing the ability to breathe deeply will somehow change asthma ? Is that exacerbations, or incidence? You may recall the volunteer at Hopkins who died last year? They were studying and had about proved that the smooth muscles in the airways constrict and narrow in everyone’s lungs  when exposed to allergens or irritants, but people without asthma are able to breathe in deeply to relax the airways and rid the lungs of the irritant. When asthmatics try to take those same deep breaths, their airways do not relax and the patients pant for breath. Smooth muscles in the airways of people with asthma may have a defect, perhaps a deficiency in a critical chemical that prevents the muscles from relaxing. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/03/980319071512.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A number of manufacturers are offering SIMT (specific inspiratory muscle training) devices for treating asthma and their claims seem worth investigating, see Powerbreathe The sports breather Spiro-Tiger (Prof. Urs Boutellier, Zurich University, Treatment of sleep apnea, Asthma?) Threshold IMT (Model HS730, Respironics, Cedar Groove, NJ) Trainair Ultrabreathe The typical response of a doctor (who definitely must be consulted) is that fundamentally this method does not make sense, but this appears to be based on medicine’s illogical doctrine rejecting resistance in the upper airways as not having any useful useful physiologic effect. "Work of breathing" is also something which medicine has difficulties with. It should be minimized, medical theory says, but vigorous breathing can surely be a sign of good health and vitality, like the sway of a gal’s hips. In short, the germ or gene theory of asthma (the key stone of pharmaceutical claims) has been around long enough and has only been associated with an asthma epidemic. Its proponents should produce solid proof or climb down. Regards, Richard Friedel

Response:

In short, the germ or gene theory of asthma (the key stone of pharmaceutical claims) has been around long enough and has only been associated with an asthma epidemic. Its proponents should produce solid proof or climb down. Regards, Richard Friedel Why don’t you apply the same criteria to buteyko?

A good idea? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942

Response:

In short, the germ or gene theory of asthma (the key stone of pharmaceutical claims) has been around long enough and has only been associated with an asthma epidemic. Its proponents should produce solid proof or climb down. Regards, Richard Friedel Why don’t you apply the same criteria to buteyko? A good idea?

An excellent idea. — CBI, MD "Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." -Andre Gide

Response:

Are you saying that developing the ability to breathe deeply will somehow change asthma ? Is that exacerbations, or incidence? You may recall the volunteer at Hopkins who died last year? They were studying and had about proved that the smooth muscles in the airways constrict and narrow in everyone’s lungs  when exposed to allergens or irritants, but people without asthma are able to breathe in deeply to relax the airways and rid the lungs of the irritant. When asthmatics try to take those same deep breaths, their airways do not relax and the patients pant for breath. Smooth muscles in the airways of people with asthma may have a defect, perhaps a deficiency in a critical chemical that prevents the muscles from relaxing. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/03/980319071512.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In short, the germ or gene theory of asthma (the key stone of pharmaceutical claims) has been around long enough and has only been associated with an asthma epidemic. Its proponents should produce solid proof or climb down. Regards, Richard Friedel Why don’t you apply the same criteria to buteyko? A good idea? — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942

Response:

A number of manufacturers are offering SIMT (specific inspiratory muscle training) devices for treating asthma and their claims seem worth investigating, see

Then they need to demonstrate that the products actually work. Anybody can make a device and claim it is effective – can they demonstrate this to current standards? And if they cannot – why should we waste our time? In short, the germ or gene theory of asthma (the key stone of pharmaceutical claims) has been around long enough and has only been associated with an asthma epidemic. Its proponents should produce solid proof or climb down. Regards, Richard Friedel

Why don’t you apply the same criteria to buteyko? — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942

Response:

A number of manufacturers are offering SIMT (specific inspiratory muscle training) devices for treating asthma and their claims seem worth investigating, see Powerbreathe The sports breather Spiro-Tiger (Prof. Urs Boutellier, Zurich University, Treatment of sleep apnea, Asthma?) Threshold IMT (Model HS730, Respironics, Cedar Groove, NJ) Trainair Ultrabreathe The typical response of a doctor (who definitely must be consulted) is that fundamentally this method does not make sense, but this appears to be based on medicine’s illogical doctrine rejecting resistance in the upper airways as not having any useful useful physiologic effect. "Work of breathing" is also something which medicine has difficulties with. It should be minimized, medical theory says, but vigorous breathing can surely be a sign of good health and vitality, like the sway of a gal’s hips. In short, the germ or gene theory of asthma (the key stone of pharmaceutical claims) has been around long enough and has only been associated with an asthma epidemic. Its proponents should produce solid proof or climb down. Regards, Richard Friedel

Response:

Question:

The cold hard truth is that vitamin supplements do nothing to treat asthma.

Colin, I thought that I had read in the newspaper that a group of anti-oxidants improved breathing. I don’t know just asking.

Response:

Colin, I thought that I had read in the newspaper that a group of anti-oxidants improved breathing. I don’t know just asking.

There were tests performed using an inhaled form of vitamin C.  These tests demonstrated a measurable, but not clinically significant , effect on asthma symptoms caused by exposure to ozone and sulphur oxides pollution. Tests with oral vitamin C of high doses of vitamin C demonstrated lesser but still detectible effects.  These effects were likewise not clinically significant. The people marketing vitamin C are carefully editing these studies to make it appear that vitamins C has a clinical effect.  Sadly, this is typical of health claims made by people marketing vitamins.   There is no ‘Army of One’ in the word: ‘Team’

Response:

Yes, I am interested in the doses and brand names if you would be kind enough to share this information with me.  I have asthma, and would like to learn more about vitamin therapy, and I am very happy for your daughter that this has worked for her.  Looking forward to hearing from you.

The people selling ‘nutritional supplements’ are not to be trusted. Their only interest is in selling product and (since they are exempt from just about every consumer protection law) they will knowingly make unfounded claims in order to get your money. The cold hard truth is that vitamin supplements do nothing to treat asthma. Before you try any ‘nutritional supplement’ in hopes of helping your asthma you should read this article: http://www.ama-assn.org/special/asthma/library/readroom/60279.htm There is no ‘Army of One’ in the word: ‘Team’

Response:

What physician  would prescribe four puffs of pulmacort (200) four times a day? You sure? That’s  thirty-two hundred mcgs. Makes my bones chatter just contemplating it.

One desperate to get the asthma under control without resorting to oral steroids?  I didn’t see the original post but I agree this is very high for a long-term dose.  However still probably less damaging to the rest of the health than oral steroids. — Surfer!    My return is address at Hotmail. If you really want to send me email then use:         surfer at                nevis-view dot                    demon dot co dot uk "I can resist anything but temptation" – Oscar Wilde

Response:

Oops.  That’s 4 puffs twice a day. Sorry. That’s still a lot, though, isn’t it? Its a ‘high dose.’  Not unusual, I was on this dose of Pulmicort up until January.

This was my initial dose and the one I go back to if I get a chest infection, though I do 2 puffs four times a day. There is no ‘Army of One’ in the word: ‘Team’

– Surfer!    My return is address at Hotmail. If you really want to send me email then use:         surfer at                nevis-view dot                    demon dot co dot uk "I can resist anything but temptation" – Oscar Wilde

Response:

Yes, I am interested in the doses and brand names if you would be kind enough to share this information with me.  I have asthma, and would like to learn more about vitamin therapy, and I am very happy for your daughter that this has worked for her.  Looking forward to hearing from you.

Response:

What physician  would prescribe four puffs of pulmacort (200) four times a day? You sure? That’s  thirty-two hundred mcgs. Makes my bones chatter just contemplating it.

Response:

Oops.  That’s 4 puffs twice a day. Sorry. That’s still a lot, though, isn’t it?

Response:

Oops.  That’s 4 puffs twice a day. Sorry. That’s still a lot, though, isn’t it?

Its a ‘high dose.’  Not unusual, I was on this dose of Pulmicort up until January. There is no ‘Army of One’ in the word: ‘Team’

Response:

Since posting here I have run a search on asthma and magnesium (which is primarily what her supplements are).  It is very interesting to see the research and read the reports.  Magnesium IV’s are used in the ER for people with severe asthma problems.  My daughter probably has either a deficiency or depletion of magnesium in her body as she has 2 other problems, fibromyalgia and migraines, which are also treated with magnesium.  

IV magnesium was experimented with as a _supplemental_ treatment for acute asthma in the emergency room setting.  As a result of that research it was found to have no real benefits over existing treatments.  I am not aware of anybody who is using this as a ‘mainstream’ treatment. I hope that research continues.   If magnesium is being used in the emergency rooms for treating asthma, I would not call it an alternative treatment. Using vitamins to treat it might is another matter.

See the comments above. The research I found started in 1995 and continued.  Anyone interested could do a search.  I don’t think the triggers have changed for my daughter. What has changed is the treatment.  She is not cured, it’s just that it is much better. She uses ventolin 2-3 times a week instead of 4 times a day, with all of the other meds.  

Odd that you seem not to have noticed the results of the research into the treatment of asthma with oral magnesium.  Or are you ignoring the research that produced ‘no effect?’ She has holes in her bones from her meds and she is only 15.  If she can pitch the pulmicort then we are glad, but if she needs it, we are grateful to have it, too.  

Magnesium functions as a smooth muscle relaxer.  As such it has no real benefits over the current bronchodilators.  The thing to pay attention to is that it – at best – will only suppress asthma symptoms.  The Pulmicort is an anti-inflammitory medication, this means that it treats the asthma directly.  It also is believed to protect against airways remodeling – which is a serious long term danger to all asthmatics. There is no ‘Army of One’ in the word: ‘Team’

Response:

I asked my daughter tonight if she need any of her meds refilled – pulmicort, rhinocort, servent, tilade, ventolin, rynatan.  She told me she isn’t taking meds any more –

because Mummy is trying to make some pocket money by spamming usenet on behalf of a "vitamin pill" manufacturer — eric "live fast, die only if strictly necessary"

Response:

Since posting here I have run a search on asthma and magnesium (which is primarily what her supplements are).  It is very interesting to see the research and read the reports.  Magnesium IV’s are used in the ER for people with severe asthma problems.  My daughter probably has either a deficiency or depletion of magnesium in her body as she has 2 other problems, fibromyalgia and migraines, which are also treated with magnesium.   I hope that research continues.   If magnesium is being used in the emergency rooms for treating asthma, I would not call it an alternative treatment. Using vitamins to treat it might is another matter. The research I found started in 1995 and continued.  Anyone interested could do a search.  I don’t think the triggers have changed for my daughter. What has changed is the treatment.  She is not cured, it’s just that it is much better. She uses ventolin 2-3 times a week instead of 4 times a day, with all of the other meds.   She has holes in her bones from her meds and she is only 15.  If she can pitch the pulmicort then we are glad, but if she needs it, we are grateful to have it, too.  

Response:

: She is kidding herself.  All of these have been tested in clinical : trials and found useless for the treatment of asthma.

You may be absolutely right here, but I think there’re a lot of advantages in taking meds.  In this case, they’re helping … even though it may be nothing more than a placebo effect.  Why fool with success? Al Fisher 13217 Deron Ave. San Diego, CA 92129-2511 Phone: (619) 484-2816; email

Response:

: : : Here is a list of what she takes – don’t know the dosages, and I’m not listing : the brand names unless anyone is interested. : a Cal/Mag formual : Vit. C : Magnesium malate : malic relief formula : potassium magnesium citrate : beta carotene (this is helping her chronic allergic conjunctivitis somewhat- : not                    completely) : vitamin A (one of her docs recommended this one) : : She also told me that she is drinking a lot more milk!  Strange.  :-)) : : She is kidding herself.  All of these have been tested in clinical : trials and found useless for the treatment of asthma. : : I suggest that you ask her exactly how often she has to use her rescue : inhaler.  If it is more than 3 times a week her asthma is not under : control. : : When you deal with ‘alternative’ medicine the watchword is ‘buyer : beware.’  This industry has gotten itself removed from just about : every consumer protection law, they take full advantage of this (and : of their customers). : She may have just moved away from her triggers — Gordon    W5RED www.couger.com/gcouger

Response:

Here is a list of what she takes – don’t know the dosages, and I’m not listing the brand names unless anyone is interested.   a Cal/Mag formual Vit. C Magnesium malate malic relief formula potassium magnesium citrate beta carotene (this is helping her chronic allergic conjunctivitis somewhat- not                    completely) vitamin A (one of her docs recommended this one) She also told me that she is drinking a lot more milk!  Strange.  :-))

She is kidding herself.  All of these have been tested in clinical trials and found useless for the treatment of asthma. I suggest that you ask her exactly how often she has to use her rescue inhaler.  If it is more than 3 times a week her asthma is not under control. When you deal with ‘alternative’ medicine the watchword is ‘buyer beware.’  This industry has gotten itself removed from just about every consumer protection law, they take full advantage of this (and of their customers). There is no ‘Army of One’ in the word: ‘Team’

Response:

I asked my daughter tonight if she need any of her meds refilled – pulmicort, rhinocort, servent, tilade, ventolin, rynatan.  She told me she isn’t taking meds any more – she doesn’t need them!  We discovered magnesium malate a few years ago when she was diagnosed with fibromyagia and she has been taking it along with some other vitamins, every night.  She told me she only needs her rescue med and she doesn’t use it very often.Can’t believe it!!!!  She had been taking 4 puffs of pulmicort 4 times a day, missed 4 days of school in the fall due to asthma, and has not been off her meds for 8 years. She has moderate to severe asthma, took prednisone (short burst) last fall.   I am thrilled that she does not need the meds – she was diagnosed last year with osteopenia.  I think this is due to the inhaled steroids she has taken for so long. Of course, she has weaned herself off of the meds. Here is a list of what she takes – don’t know the dosages, and I’m not listing the brand names unless anyone is interested.   a Cal/Mag formual Vit. C Magnesium malate malic relief formula potassium magnesium citrate beta carotene (this is helping her chronic allergic conjunctivitis somewhat- not                    completely) vitamin A (one of her docs recommended this one) She also told me that she is drinking a lot more milk!  Strange.  :-))

Response:

Question:

:

: : I’m hoping for some comments concerning genetic versus environmental causes of : asthma. Thanks for your feedback. : : There has been no history of asthma in my family. In ~1986 : (age 33) however I walked into a shed on a field project at : work which had very high levels of S02 due to a leak. I : instantly felt ill but recovered rapidly in the fresh air : outside. A few days later I was seriously ill with : difficulty in breathing, was taken to the doctor and : diagnosed with a chest infection and asthma. The nature of : the infection was not identified, nor was its origin. As : there was a few days between my exposure to the SO2 and the : chest problems no link was made immediately. Sour gas, S02 has killed many an oil field worker. Eighteen months would be about the right time to recover from a problem like that. — Gordon    W5RED

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have not had any major lung problems in the past, ran regularly year-round, and am a very aggressive downhill skier, 40 years old. Neither of my parents have allergies or asthma, although one sister has asthma. This past March I rented a car with a ventilation system contaminated with antifreeze residue that was rented to me without any clean-up. Since antifreeze is now scentless (so dogs won’t lap it up) I was unaware that I was breathing any contaminants as I ran the heater and drove some eight hours to my destination, becoming progressively more ill along the way. I thought I was coming down with a cold: sore throat, red eyes, runny nose, coughing once in a while. We later discovered that my symptoms were congruent with a vaporized ethylene glycol poisoning, although the cause was not discovered until a day later when a mechanic inspected the car and found antifreeze stains along the engine, air intakes and interior vents. My breathing dropped to about 350 l/min., from an estimated norm of 750 – 800 (well above the norm for my size and age but I am athletic). I eventually found my way to a pulmonologist for help with my breathing which, unmedicated, remained at 450 one month after the exposure and made running very difficult. I’ve had enormous difficulty tolerating the most effective medications (Flovent, Pulmicort), as this seems to exacerbate my excema. I also take Serevent and have Maxair for use before workouts. After much difficulty with unusually active excema, I sought help from an allergist. The allergist claims that the chemical assault was merely a "triggering event" since I have tested allergic to ragweed, mold, dust mites and about a dozen other things. His point of view is that irrespective of the chemical assault, I was likely to develop asthma sooner or later and it was only a matter of time before something "triggered asthma." I have no reason to believe this fatalistic analysis and, when questioned further, this doctor did reveal that his point of view is not 100% true in all cases and that he was merely "guessing" as to why I have asthma now. My pulmonologist is more open-minded than the allergist. He feels that even if it were true that I have a genetic predisposition toward developing allergies and asthma, why then do many elderly cardiac patients with no complaints of breathing problems technically have asthma but show no signs of it. Their genetic predisposition for asthma remains, even in old age, unrealized. His point is that the chemical exposure was a huge assault on my system which has triggered lifelong asthma but (in his opinion) given my condition and history prior to the chemical assault, would have otherwise likely remaind inactive. As there may or may not be some legal action taken against the car rental company within another year and a half, I don’t want to find a year from now that my health remains seriously compromised and that I’ve got a biased physician in my corner ready to blame my DNA for developing the asthma. Granted, there I may never take any action against the car rental agency, but I don’t need or want a corporate apologist in my corner. I didn’t ask to get into hairsplitting, but I am not at fault for the car rental agency’s negligence yet it appears I might have to pay and pay and pay through greatly compromised health because doctors can’t agree whether asthma is purely genetic, environmental or some disproportionate split either way. I’m hoping for some comments concerning genetic versus environmental causes of asthma. Thanks for your feedback.

This sounds like RADS [Reactive Airways Dysfunction Syndrome] or occupational asthma, triggered by exposure to the ethylene  glycol. My understanding is about half of those who are allergic develop asthma, not 100%. Links: http://www.consumerlawpage.com/article/asthma.shtml Proving  Chemically Induced Asthma Symptoms: Reactive Airways  Dysfunction Syndrome, A New Medical Development     By Richard Alexander, Esq. http://www.dailylung.com/RADS.htm  RADS Excerpt: "RADS occurs after a single high level exposure to an inhaled  irritant agent such as a gas, fume or vapor. The exposure is  intense enough to cause immediate asthmatic symptoms. The  cause of RADS is felt to be nonimmunologic, rather it is  irritant induced. " http://www.mtsinai.org/pulmonary/papers/pitfalls/pitfalls-disc-refs.html  PITFALLS IN DIAGNOSING OCCUPATIONAL LUNG DISEASE FOR PURPOSES  OF COMPENSATION http://www.ama-assn.org/special/asthma/treatmnt/guide/guidelin/comp2/… Occup. Exposure http://www.thriveonline.com/health/Library/CAD/abstract23263.html Occup. Asthma RADS http://www.chestnet.org/education/pccu/best/lesson22-10.html  Determination of Pulmonary Impairment and Disability: A Practical Approach          ACCP Ellis

Response:

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. Z.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m new to the group and have read the FAQ but have not seen much info pertinent to my strange situation. I have not had any major lung problems in the past, ran regularly year-round, and am a very aggressive downhill skier, 40 years old. Neither of my parents have allergies or asthma, although one sister has asthma. This past March I rented a car with a ventilation system contaminated with antifreeze residue that was rented to me without any clean-up. Since antifreeze is now scentless (so dogs won’t lap it up) I was unaware that I was breathing any contaminants as I ran the heater and drove some eight hours to my destination, becoming progressively more ill along the way. I thought I was coming down with a cold: sore throat, red eyes, runny nose, coughing once in a while. We later discovered that my symptoms were congruent with a vaporized ethylene glycol poisoning, although the cause was not discovered until a day later when a mechanic inspected the car and found antifreeze stains along the engine, air intakes and interior vents. My breathing dropped to about 350 l/min., from an estimated norm of 750 – 800 (well above the norm for my size and age but I am athletic). I eventually found my way to a pulmonologist for help with my breathing which, unmedicated, remained at 450 one month after the exposure and made running very difficult. I’ve had enormous difficulty tolerating the most effective medications (Flovent, Pulmicort), as this seems to exacerbate my excema. I also take Serevent and have Maxair for use before workouts. After much difficulty with unusually active excema, I sought help from an allergist. The allergist claims that the chemical assault was merely a "triggering event" since I have tested allergic to ragweed, mold, dust mites and about a dozen other things. His point of view is that irrespective of the chemical assault, I was likely to develop asthma sooner or later and it was only a matter of time before something "triggered asthma." I have no reason to believe this fatalistic analysis and, when questioned further, this doctor did reveal that his point of view is not 100% true in all cases and that he was merely "guessing" as to why I have asthma now. My pulmonologist is more open-minded than the allergist. He feels that even if it were true that I have a genetic predisposition toward developing allergies and asthma, why then do many elderly cardiac patients with no complaints of breathing problems technically have asthma but show no signs of it. Their genetic predisposition for asthma remains, even in old age, unrealized. His point is that the chemical exposure was a huge assault on my system which has triggered lifelong asthma but (in his opinion) given my condition and history prior to the chemical assault, would have otherwise likely remaind inactive. As there may or may not be some legal action taken against the car rental company within another year and a half, I don’t want to find a year from now that my health remains seriously compromised and that I’ve got a biased physician in my corner ready to blame my DNA for developing the asthma. Granted, there I may never take any action against the car rental agency, but I don’t need or want a corporate apologist in my corner. I didn’t ask to get into hairsplitting, but I am not at fault for the car rental agency’s negligence yet it appears I might have to pay and pay and pay through greatly compromised health because doctors can’t agree whether asthma is purely genetic, environmental or some disproportionate split either way. I’m hoping for some comments concerning genetic versus environmental causes of asthma. Thanks for your feedback.

Response:

Hi, I’m new to the group and have read the FAQ but have not seen much info pertinent to my strange situation. I have not had any major lung problems in the past, ran regularly year-round, and am a very aggressive downhill skier, 40 years old. Neither of my parents have allergies or asthma, although one sister has asthma. This past March I rented a car with a ventilation system contaminated with antifreeze residue that was rented to me without any clean-up. Since antifreeze is now scentless (so dogs won’t lap it up) I was unaware that I was breathing any contaminants as I ran the heater and drove some eight hours to my destination, becoming progressively more ill along the way. I thought I was coming down with a cold: sore throat, red eyes, runny nose, coughing once in a while. We later discovered that my symptoms were congruent with a vaporized ethylene glycol poisoning, although the cause was not discovered until a day later when a mechanic inspected the car and found antifreeze stains along the engine, air intakes and interior vents. My breathing dropped to about 350 l/min., from an estimated norm of 750 – 800 (well above the norm for my size and age but I am athletic). I eventually found my way to a pulmonologist for help with my breathing which, unmedicated, remained at 450 one month after the exposure and made running very difficult. I’ve had enormous difficulty tolerating the most effective medications (Flovent, Pulmicort), as this seems to exacerbate my excema. I also take Serevent and have Maxair for use before workouts. After much difficulty with unusually active excema, I sought help from an allergist. The allergist claims that the chemical assault was merely a "triggering event" since I have tested allergic to ragweed, mold, dust mites and about a dozen other things. His point of view is that irrespective of the chemical assault, I was likely to develop asthma sooner or later and it was only a matter of time before something "triggered asthma." I have no reason to believe this fatalistic analysis and, when questioned further, this doctor did reveal that his point of view is not 100% true in all cases and that he was merely "guessing" as to why I have asthma now. My pulmonologist is more open-minded than the allergist. He feels that even if it were true that I have a genetic predisposition toward developing allergies and asthma, why then do many elderly cardiac patients with no complaints of breathing problems technically have asthma but show no signs of it. Their genetic predisposition for asthma remains, even in old age, unrealized. His point is that the chemical exposure was a huge assault on my system which has triggered lifelong asthma but (in his opinion) given my condition and history prior to the chemical assault, would have otherwise likely remaind inactive. As there may or may not be some legal action taken against the car rental company within another year and a half, I don’t want to find a year from now that my health remains seriously compromised and that I’ve got a biased physician in my corner ready to blame my DNA for developing the asthma. Granted, there I may never take any action against the car rental agency, but I don’t need or want a corporate apologist in my corner. I didn’t ask to get into hairsplitting, but I am not at fault for the car rental agency’s negligence yet it appears I might have to pay and pay and pay through greatly compromised health because doctors can’t agree whether asthma is purely genetic, environmental or some disproportionate split either way. I’m hoping for some comments concerning genetic versus environmental causes of asthma. Thanks for your feedback.

Response:

I’m hoping for some comments concerning genetic versus environmental causes of asthma. Thanks for your feedback.

There has been no history of asthma in my family. In ~1986 (age 33) however I walked into a shed on a field project at work which had very high levels of S02 due to a leak. I instantly felt ill but recovered rapidly in the fresh air outside. A few days later I was seriously ill with difficulty in breathing, was taken to the doctor and diagnosed with a chest infection and asthma. The nature of the infection was not identified, nor was its origin. As there was a few days between my exposure to the SO2 and the chest problems no link was made immediately. I suffered asthma for 2 1/2 years before it gradually faded away one spring and I have had no trouble since. I have talked to many people over the years and have come to several conclusions. 1. My asthma was triggered by the SO2 exposure 2. I *may* have had a predispostion to asthma (I suffered eczma as a child and the two illnesses are generally thought to have links) 3. Asthma is not necessarily permanent Chris D — Chris N. Deuchar, Nottingham University, Sutton Bonington Campus, Loughborough, LE12 5RD tel: 0115 951 6264, fax:0870 284 1481 http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/~sbzcd/

Response:

: Hi, : : We later discovered that my symptoms were congruent with a vaporized ethylene : glycol poisoning, although the cause was not discovered until a day later when a : mechanic inspected the car and found antifreeze stains along the engine, air : intakes and interior vents. My breathing dropped to about 350 l/min., from an : estimated norm of 750 – 800 (well above the norm for my size and age but I am : athletic). Ethylene glycol is a pretty good fixative. It acts about like formalydhide except it is not as fast and acts slower/ It is also not very volatile and can get deep in the lungs and basically kills the tissue. But it is so lowly volatile that a lot of it has a change to get out of our lungs wiht out hurting them. If my own experience is any gauge my lungs continue to heal for about 18 months to 2 years and that is about all I get. I would get the flu and pnemonuna shot and maybe take a anti viral during flu season the first year. Try to stay away from thing that irritate your lungs and trigger asthma. Good luck — Gordon    W5RED

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m hoping for some comments concerning genetic versus environmental causes of asthma. Thanks for your feedback. There has been no history of asthma in my family. In ~1986 (age 33) however I walked into a shed on a field project at work which had very high levels of S02 due to a leak. I instantly felt ill but recovered rapidly in the fresh air outside. A few days later I was seriously ill with difficulty in breathing, was taken to the doctor and diagnosed with a chest infection and asthma. The nature of the infection was not identified, nor was its origin. As there was a few days between my exposure to the SO2 and the chest problems no link was made immediately. I suffered asthma for 2 1/2 years before it gradually faded away one spring and I have had no trouble since. I have talked to many people over the years and have come to several conclusions. 1. My asthma was triggered by the SO2 exposure 2. I *may* have had a predispostion to asthma (I suffered eczma as a child and the two illnesses are generally thought to have links) 3. Asthma is not necessarily permanent

Hi Chris, Your experience differs from the experiences of many people (mostly but not exclusively females) that I’ve encountered, in real life and on various newsgroups. I wonder if the following might be factors: 1) age of the exposure 2) the substance involved (most of the others involved pesticides) 3) previous lifestyle and/or change of lifestyle to mitigate damage 4) quality of care and/or medications, following the exposure (in your case that was???) 5) gender (seems like many studies, in the past at least, have been with mostly males, citing that studies get blurred by hormonal fluctuations) 6) ensuing occupational exposures (for instance, I would expect that a University employee/student would have a better quality of work environment than say, a person who, after an exposure, had to return to employment in small business, where little regard is sometimes given to proper ventilaton, cleaning etc etc) 7) emotional stress and degree of toxification due to additional medications taken for various symptoms such as sleep problems, migraines etc physical stress, many of the females that I mention, after the exposures, had to return to work and caring for family, as opposed to perhaps cutting back on their workload and taking more time to care for their bodies to try and mitigate damage. This subject is much debated on the environmental newsgroups.  In addition (mostly) males, physicians, scientists etc continue to deny MCS (multiple chemical sensitivity).  As my friend would say "if I got shot, would a physician say that I was allergic or sensitive to bullets?".  There’s got to be a certain degree of toxification of the organs, IMO but what factors determine who recovers and who goes on to further ill health is one of the mysteries. My friend had an acute exposure to a pesticide (about same age/timeline as you) and had a very healthy lifestyle at the time.  She’s moved 3 times to get away from air pollutants, developed neurological (not emotional) responses from coming in contact with fragrances, plastics etc.  Her acute asthma seemed to abate at first, but 15 years later it’s back with a vengeance due to a neighbour burning trash near their common fence line.  She’s since (the exposure) been disabled with fibromyalgia, Lupus (SLE), hypothyroidism and a number of other chronic disabling illnesses, not to mention a fight ever day to just find a safe place (other than her own home) to breathe fresh clean air.  The familial history is a blur since she was adopted but has since found out that her father has an autoimmune illness but no history that she is aware of the other illnesses. Thoughts? J PS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/research/ Interesting..are you in research?  Do they research asthma at your University?

Response:

Question:

Lil, See below. lilblakdog <lbdcreati…@dog.com> wrote in message

news:C9va5.6014$_J1.40615@newscontent-01.sprint.ca… > rebecca <justrebec…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:2ema5.52050$_b3.1513563@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net…

<snip> > Biomom tells him he needs them > *all* the time.

<snip> >I think he’s having a hard > time seeing the seriousness of this.  He’s never had any real experience > with asthma and this then becomes one of those times when he feels that > biomom is the voice of experience.

Okay, now you’re making *me* nervous for the kid.  Is he on corticosteriods too, or just the bronchodialators?  Because long-term or overdone corticosteriod use on children is a *really* bad thing.  Would I be out of line suggesting that you, DH and SS all take some kind of class together? Invite BM if you want, but at least the three of you would then be able to communicate about it better.  Perhaps SS doc could suggest a resource? I really hope this never happens to me, because I’m afraid BM would overreact and do something exactly like this, and my head would rotate 360 degrees and explode. Good luck, Rebecca

Response:

rebecca <justrebec…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:D6Ha5.55118$_b3.1622641@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net… > Is he on corticosteriods > too, or just the bronchodialators?  Because long-term or overdone > corticosteriod use on children is a *really* bad thing.

I’m not really sure…as I said, every time we get him the medication is a little different.  I’ll go through his meds tomorrow, when we pick him up, and report back.  I’m heading out on holidays really early Thursday morning, but I’ll be checking in from the road. >  Would I be out of > line suggesting that you, DH and SS all take some kind of class together?

Absolutely not.  DH *has* read several books on the subject, but it’s hard to really understand until you’ve lived with it for awhile.  I wonder if there *is* some kind of class we could all take together, in the time we have him? > I really hope this never happens to me, because I’m afraid BM would > overreact and do something exactly like this, and my head would rotate 360 > degrees and explode.

<grin> Yeah, I know.  DH and I get upset over a lot of petty little things, but this one really scares me.  Stepson’s health really could be at stake here. > Good luck,

Thanks! lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

>Ventalin will save your life if you have a >serious attack, but you can build up an immunity to it.  If that happens, >good luck!

I had an attack several years ago where I was way over-administering my Proventil (the same medication – albuterol) to myself with no relief.  I was staying in another cat person’s home for five days to see their cats and pick up a show cat, and my allergies outlasted my responsiveness to my inhaler and I ended up in close to status asthmaticus.  (I have a curious cat allergy – I took the shots and now I can have my own cats with no allergic response at all, but in someone else’s home for more than 24 hours I have a terrible time and need my inhaler.  I also am allergic to newborn kittens (and dreadfully allergic to their birth process) for about a week – presumably until I build up a tolerance to them.)  These people lived in upstate New York in the country and slept with their windows open at night, too, which did not help.   Anyway, I ended up in an ER (in someplace like Horsehead or something like that) getting three breathing treatments and a shot of Solu-Medrol, as well as being placed on po Prednisone for a week (which tastes *really* bad).  It was not fun at all.  You definitely CAN build up a tolerance for your albuterol inhaler. >I really believe that biomom is neglecting stepson’s health–firstly, by >overmedicating him and secondly, by not checking the inhalers and >unknowingly relying on empty ones.  As an asthmatic, this scares the hell >out of me.

Can you keep some documentation of this?  Ask you attorney – perhaps the court can order the BM to some sort of asthma education class.  The medical group I work for offers a whole series, so they do exist. >We could have taken an >asthmatic kid into the woods for a month without adequate medication…which >may not even be adequate.

Can you have his doc write you a spare Rx for the medication and you keep a spare or two at your house at all times?  I would think if you explain the situation he/she might be willing to do that.  We always have our ped write two Rxs for SD’s Nasonex (though sometimes I can get samples at work, too) – that way we have ours for our house and BM has her own for her house. Geri ~~~~~~~~ "There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast."- Anonymous ~~~~~~~~~~

Response:

In article <Wtaa5.3820$_J1.28…@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>, posted Sun, 9 Jul 2000 19:23:02 -0700, lilblakdog says… > Okay, bit of history.  Stepson is *mildly* asthmatic.  So am I.  DH isn’t > and neither is biomom. > The first concern was when I was over at my in-laws’ a few years ago and saw > biomom’s instructions for medicating him.  It said that the Ventalin could > be administered up to 24 times a day.  I flipped–the maximum *adult* dosage > is two puffs, four times a day.  And stepson’s asthma is extremely > mild–I’ve only ever seen him need the inhaler *maybe* three times in the > seven years I’ve been around.  Ventalin will save your life if you have a > serious attack, but you can build up an immunity to it.  If that happens, > good luck!

I read some time ago that asthma deaths were far less frequent before the introduction of Ventolin and similar asthma dilator ‘wonder’ drugs. On that information I personally gave up all my asthma medication about 20 years ago (I used to have about 4 or 5 attacks per month, using Ventolin whenever I had an attack). The asthma continued, but within a couple of months attacks became less frequent and reduced in intensity. These days I have a maybe a *hint* of an attack perhaps once a year. I don’t really remember asthma anymore. My own opinion is that Ventolin and similar derivatives guarantee your next attack. It can be very scary to stop using it, and I wouldn’t suggest it to anyone unless they were sure they wanted to. Lil, is it spelled ventalin or ventolin on the puffer? Kevin — Quotes and Questions of a four year old: (On looking down at the streets of New York from the top of the Empire State Building) "The cars look like toys, and the people look like ants, and the ants look like nothing!"

Response:

rebecca <justrebec…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:2ema5.52050$_b3.1513563@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net… > Hi Lil,

Hi Rebecca! > SS is definitely old enough to self-manage at least some of his problems. > We have *all* got asthma in my family, and by age 4-5 we start teaching the > babies about it, how to tell if you’re feeling badly, how to do a peak flow, > to notice what sets them off, etc.  Most cases of asthma are *so* > manageable.

I’ve tried to help stepson recognize the signs, but it’s hard when he’s getting such conflicting direction.  I tell him to watch for half-yawns and deep, sharp breaths, rattly coughs, etc.  Biomom tells him he needs them *all* the time.  The fact that she’s in his face telling him this every day sort of overrides what I try to tell him.  I *have* taught him to self-administer, which makes me feel better in case there’s an emergency, but the other just seems to be beyond my control without her help. > When you talk to the doc, I would ask about the possible effects of what > sounds like serial overmedication, followed by no medicine at all (when > inhaler’s empty).  Could this be causing any of SS other problems?  I used > to be on Ventolin, and I was very jittery after a regular dosage, let alone > serious overmedicating.

Eugh…especially after not having a dose for awhile.  I’ve been so jittery after a single dose of Ventolin that I couldn’t even hold a pen!  You know, I never even thought that the Ventolin might be keeping him from being able to focus, but it does make a lot of sense.  I think I’d like to look into that a little further, thank you. > About biomom?  Just about one of the only things the courts come down on > hard around here is causing potential health harms to a kid by withholding > or screwing up their meds.  BUT the other parent has to make it an issue, > and involve the court.  What does dad say?

Dad doesn’t involve the court.  End of story.  Any time he’s ever felt strongly about something, and actually *said* something, it’s turned into a power struggle and guilt trip that he loses.  I think he’s having a hard time seeing the seriousness of this.  He’s never had any real experience with asthma and this then becomes one of those times when he feels that biomom is the voice of experience.  Which is why, in this case, I’d prefer if we had stepson’s own doctor on our side. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

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kevin <redwoo…@seeing.org> wrote in message

news:MPG.13d3a66127fc9ac9989bca@news.cwcom.net… > I read some time ago that asthma deaths were far less frequent before the > introduction of Ventolin and similar asthma dilator ‘wonder’ drugs. On > that information I personally gave up all my asthma medication about 20 > years ago (I used to have about 4 or 5 attacks per month, using Ventolin > whenever I had an attack). The asthma continued, but within a couple of > months attacks became less frequent and reduced in intensity. These days > I have a maybe a *hint* of an attack perhaps once a year. I don’t really > remember asthma anymore.

Well, I suffered rather severely from asthma as a teenager and into my early adulthood.  When I was finally diagnosed at 21 (don’t ask!), I went through a fairly agressive Ventolin routine for about a month.  Then my allergist told me to replace the Ventolin with Becloforte and that made a whole new world of difference.  Within another couple of weeks, my asthma was completely under control.  I have to admit, though, that I haven’t refilled my inhalers in ages–my last Ventolin expired in 9/98 and my Becloforte expired in 10/99.  I still cough all the time and have trouble breathing in the summer–particularly when it’s hot–and if an inhaler is handy, I’ll take it.  But I never have leaned heavily on them and I don’t waste the money unless I really think I’ll be needing them. > My own opinion is that Ventolin and similar derivatives guarantee your > next attack. It can be very scary to stop using it, and I wouldn’t > suggest it to anyone unless they were sure they wanted to.

Well, I would never hesitate to use it on my stepson if I thought he needed it.  I can determine for myself whether or not I think the attack is worth it, but I can’t make that decision for him.  And I know that’s not what you’re suggesting.  :-) > Lil, is it spelled ventalin or ventolin on the puffer?

Actually, it’s spelled Novo-Salmol.  :-) I refer to all blue inhalers as Ventolin and what you’ve been reading is my own creative spelling. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

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Hi Lil, SS is definitely old enough to self-manage at least some of his problems. We have *all* got asthma in my family, and by age 4-5 we start teaching the babies about it, how to tell if you’re feeling badly, how to do a peak flow, to notice what sets them off, etc.  Most cases of asthma are *so* manageable. When you talk to the doc, I would ask about the possible effects of what sounds like serial overmedication, followed by no medicine at all (when inhaler’s empty).  Could this be causing any of SS other problems?  I used to be on Ventolin, and I was very jittery after a regular dosage, let alone serious overmedicating. About biomom?  Just about one of the only things the courts come down on hard around here is causing potential health harms to a kid by withholding or screwing up their meds.  BUT the other parent has to make it an issue, and involve the court.  What does dad say? ~rebecca lilblakdog <lbdcreati…@dog.com> wrote in message

news:Wtaa5.3820$_J1.28913@newscontent-01.sprint.ca… > Okay, bit of history.  Stepson is *mildly* asthmatic.  So am I.  DH isn’t > and neither is biomom.

<snip>

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In a previous article, "lilblakdog" <lbdcreati…@dog.com> said: <I really believe that biomom is neglecting stepson’s health–firstly, by <overmedicating him and secondly, by not checking the inhalers and <unknowingly relying on empty ones.  As an asthmatic, this scares the hell <out of me. < Especially since overuse of bronchodialators can result in irregular heartbeat.  It’s not common, but I know that Laura is very careful to keep track of her use and never uses it more than 4X a day. <I know we can’t tell biomom how to parent, but is there any way we can <interfere in the way she administers his medication?  I would like to see <her take some sort of workshop for non-asthmatic parents of asthmatic <children, so that she can learn to read the signs properly and check the <medication for effectiveness. Good luck getting her to do this.  I think that it might be more fruitful for SS to learn how to float the vial himself.  Keep the empty one, and after you get the new one, float them both and discuss the reasons that they float differently.  Tell him to check his inhaler every week, say every Monday morning.  Let biomom know that he’s taking responsiblity for checking the level.  He can let her know when it’s getting low.  And, when it comes to that, why not give him a little chart to use to record his use for himself? <Anybody have any ideas on how to approach this?  DH wants to just not give <it to him and see if he needs it.  Then if he doesn’t, we have something to <go to biomom with.  I cannot, in good conscience, do this in the woods, with <no hospital around for miles.  My asthma is mild too, but my first serious <attack came on very suddenly and within minutes I’d lost easily 70% of my <breathing ability.  And it took a huge shot of adrenalin to save my life.  I <can’t go through that when we’re camping in the middle of nowhere! Does he have asthma, or reactive airways disease?  If it’s rad he’s unlikely to have such a severe reaction; that’s what Laura’s got, and Claritin usually is all the preventative meds she takes unless she’s going to be doing something strenuous (she uses her inhaler before soccer) or if we know she’s going to be in contact with cats or horses.  If he’s had acute asthma before, then I’d agree, but if he just wheezes a little now and then, I wonder if he really needs the prophylaxis. I think this is something you need to talk to his doctor about, lil. And not *a* doctor, but *his* doctor, who is familiar with his history.  And maybe the doctor is the one to approach biomom, too, come to think of it.  He could review SS’s meds use with her and write it down for her.  He could also encourage SS to float his own inhaler. Might be worth a try. Vicki — Mediation and Alternative Dispute Resolution Resources: http://www.rit.edu/~vjrnts/mediation/mediation.html The alt.folklore.urban FAQ and archive can be found at http://www.urbanlegends.com/  

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Vicki Robinson <vjr…@xcski.com> wrote in message

news:8kbdlo$ve5$1@allhats.xcski.com… > Good luck getting her to do this.

Yeah, I know!  But I can dream….  :-) >  I think that it might be more > fruitful for SS to learn how to float the vial himself.  Keep the > empty one, and after you get the new one, float them both and discuss > the reasons that they float differently.  Tell him to check his > inhaler every week, say every Monday morning.  Let biomom know that > he’s taking responsiblity for checking the level.  He can let her know > when it’s getting low.  And, when it comes to that, why not give him a > little chart to use to record his use for himself?

This is a really good idea.  I’m not sure whether it will carry over or not, when he goes home, but at least then biomom will know that it’s a concern of ours and that we’re watching the way she administers his medication.  And, if we’re ever sent empty inhalers again, we’ve got proof that she’s not carrying through on important health issues. > Does he have asthma, or reactive airways disease?

Well, asthma is what is on his medical records.  I’m not sure I’d know the difference. > If he’s had acute asthma before, then I’d agree, but if he > just wheezes a little now and then, I wonder if he really needs the > prophylaxis.

I, personally, don’t think he does.  I think it’s a good idea to have one around just in case, but it alarms me that it’s being adminstered so often. I read in his school records that "C** has asthma, which is treated with…."  That sounds like the school is medicating him as well.  As I said, I’ve only noticed him actually needing it two or three times in the last seven years.  And it wasn’t for a blocked airway; it was for the rattly cough, which is my most-frequent sympton as well.  I have *never* seen him in a state that required a Ventalin inhaler. > I think this is something you need to talk to his doctor about, lil. > And not *a* doctor, but *his* doctor, who is familiar with his > history.

<sigh> I wish it were that simple.  Each of stepson’s inhalers has a different prescribing physician…I don’t think he *has* a doctor.  Sometimes it reminds me of Wakanyeja and the way her biomom took her son to different doctors to find one who would give him Ritalin without question.  I wonder if there’s a reason biomom won’t go to the same one twice. The first year we took stepson camping, he came with a ziplock bag *full* of different inhalers.  All with different prescribing doctors.  I took stepson to a local clinic and sat the doctor down and made him explain to me what each one was for.  Three of them were for the same loose cough and the other two were variations of Ventalin.  He couldn’t explain to me why stepson would have five prescriptions for the same two symptoms. >  And maybe the doctor is the one to approach biomom, too, > come to think of it.  He could review SS’s meds use with her and write > it down for her.  He could also encourage SS to float his own inhaler.

This is what I would like to arrange.  I was hoping that if we could track down *one* doctor, we could discuss our concerns and he could approach biomom about the way to adminster the medication.  But so far what I’ve seen is that she’s only listening to every third or fourth word he says, and then trying to fill in the rest.  For instance, she told my MIL to look for a runny nose as a sign that he needs Ventalin.  This isn’t quite right–deep, quick sniffing is a sign that he needs Ventalin, but it’s a dry sniff.  If MIL is looking for a runny nose, she’s probably not going to be giving him the inhaler when he needs it and, alternately, giving it to him when he doesn’t.  That’s why I’d like to see biomom a little better briefed on what to look for. I think maybe it’s time DH asked biomom who stepson’s doctor actually is. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

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Okay, bit of history.  Stepson is *mildly* asthmatic.  So am I.  DH isn’t and neither is biomom. The first concern was when I was over at my in-laws’ a few years ago and saw biomom’s instructions for medicating him.  It said that the Ventalin could be administered up to 24 times a day.  I flipped–the maximum *adult* dosage is two puffs, four times a day.  And stepson’s asthma is extremely mild–I’ve only ever seen him need the inhaler *maybe* three times in the seven years I’ve been around.  Ventalin will save your life if you have a serious attack, but you can build up an immunity to it.  If that happens, good luck! So I went through the instructions with my MIL and made the necessary corrections and explanations.  I showed her how to test to see if the inhaler was empty–which it was.  As was his other one.  I didn’t know how long they had been, but stepson had certainly been depending on empty inhalers for awhile. I don’t know if anything was every said to biomom.  Knowing DH, he didn’t say anything.  I don’t know if my MIL did.  But at least things were being done properly around here. Now fast forward to this summer.  My in-laws picked up stepson yesterday and before giving stepson the inhaler, my MIL "floated" it (the test to determine if there’s anything in it).  It was empty…again, who knows for how long. I really believe that biomom is neglecting stepson’s health–firstly, by overmedicating him and secondly, by not checking the inhalers and unknowingly relying on empty ones.  As an asthmatic, this scares the hell out of me. I know we can’t tell biomom how to parent, but is there any way we can interfere in the way she administers his medication?  I would like to see her take some sort of workshop for non-asthmatic parents of asthmatic children, so that she can learn to read the signs properly and check the medication for effectiveness. I can’t even imagine what would have happened if my MIL hadn’t floated the inhaler.  I certainly would never have thought to do it until the first time I shook it, *if* I was ever the one to shake it.  We could have taken an asthmatic kid into the woods for a month without adequate medication…which may not even be adequate *anyway*, if she’s been giving it to him too often. Anybody have any ideas on how to approach this?  DH wants to just not give it to him and see if he needs it.  Then if he doesn’t, we have something to go to biomom with.  I cannot, in good conscience, do this in the woods, with no hospital around for miles.  My asthma is mild too, but my first serious attack came on very suddenly and within minutes I’d lost easily 70% of my breathing ability.  And it took a huge shot of adrenalin to save my life.  I can’t go through that when we’re camping in the middle of nowhere! lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

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Question:

I have had problems on & off wih allergies.  I have developed a cough, and some trouble catching my breath over the summer.  My dr. didnt actually say I had asthma, but he did put me on azmacort, he didnt explain how it works and forgot to tell me that I could take more than twice a day if I got into trouble, the nurse told me during  an attack that I should always keep it with me & use it when ever my cough or breathing got out of hand.  I need to learn more about breathing problems and asthma.  Is there something more my dr. should do besides listen to my chest?  And where can I turn to learn what I should be asking my dr. Bonni

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Azmacort is a steroid (not a particularly strong one) and is supposed to be used as a preventer. It works on the inflammation that is now recognized to be the underlying cause of asthma. It will do *nothing* when your breathing gets "out of hand." For that, you need a rescue medicine (bronchodilator) that will open up those tubes and let you get some air in and out of there. It sounds as if your medical team doesn’t have a clue. This is dangerous. You could go into respiratory arrest while puffing in vain on your Azmacort. Get a new doctor, pronto. Emily I have had problems on & off wih allergies.  I have developed a cough, and some trouble catching my breath over the summer.  My dr. didnt actually say I had asthma, but he did put me on azmacort, he didnt explain how it works and forgot to tell me that I could take more than twice a day if I got into trouble, the nurse told me during  an attack that I should always keep it with me & use it when ever my cough or breathing got out of hand.  I need to learn more about breathing problems and asthma.  Is there something more my dr. should do besides listen to my chest?  And where can I turn to learn what I should be asking my dr. Bonni

– Knit a hug, crochet a cuddle, sew a smile. http://www.newbornsinneed.org

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I have had problems on & off wih allergies.  I have developed a cough, and some trouble catching my breath over the summer.  My dr. didnt actually say I had asthma, but he did put me on azmacort, he didnt explain how it works and forgot to tell me that I could take more than twice a day if I got into trouble, the nurse told me during  an attack that I should always keep it with me & use it when ever my cough or breathing got out of hand.  I need to learn more about breathing problems and asthma.  Is there something more my dr. should do besides listen to my chest?  And where can I turn to learn what I should be asking my dr. Bonni

Azmacort is a steroid inhaler, for treating asthma. When your syptoms worsen, the dose can be increased per a doctor approved action plan. It will take several hours for the Azmacort to start taking effect, so should not be used for rescue. The primary rescue inhaler for asthma is Ventolin (albuterol) This acts within 5 minutes. To learn more about asthma read the FAQ for this NG at: http://www.radix.net/~mwg/asthma-gen.html  alt.support.asthma FAQ A good book is ‘The Asthma Sourcebook’, Francis Adams, MD rev ‘98 Ellis

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I have had problems on & off wih allergies.  I have developed a cough, and some trouble catching my breath over the summer.  My dr. didnt actually say I had asthma, but he did put me on azmacort, he didnt explain how it works and forgot to tell me that I could take more than twice a day if I got into trouble, the nurse told me during  an attack that I should always keep it with me & use it when ever my cough or breathing got out of hand.  I need to learn more about breathing problems and asthma.  Is there something more my dr. should do besides listen to my chest?  And where can I turn to learn what I should be asking my dr.

Azmacort is an inhaled steroid.  This medication reduces the airways inflammation which causes your asthma symptoms. Warning:  This medication can take several weeks to show effects and Is Not Intended To Treat Acute Asthma Symptoms! You should also have been prescribed another inhaler (Ventolin, Proventil or generic albuterol) to use to treat asthma symptoms. You would probably benefit from asking for a referral to an asthma specialist. No electrons were harmed in the posting of this message.

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Something else you might consider is consulting with an allergist.  Many also treat asthma.  Getting the allergies under control will help the asthma.  Other than that I agree with all of the other advice given.  You need to check into getting an emergency inhaler. — "I’m an original species, More enlightened than Nietzsche." –Audio Adrenaline, "Original Species"

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I have allergies, and just this spring and summer, developed a nagging cough, sore throats, clearing my throat, and horrible chest congestion like I had a bad cold.  I also had a "breathing" attack with wheezing in July. Horrible.   My allergist/sinus doctor thought I probably had asthma – and referred me to a pulmonologist who practices in the same hospital (The University of Chicago Center for Advanced Medicine).  Turns out, after being tested, I do have asthma.  So, I see both an allergist/sinus doctor and a pulmonologist now.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Something else you might consider is consulting with an allergist.  Many also treat asthma.  Getting the allergies under control will help the asthma.  Other than that I agree with all of the other advice given.  You need to check into getting an emergency inhaler. — "I’m an original species, More enlightened than Nietzsche." –Audio Adrenaline, "Original Species"

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I’m new at all this and am trying to learn as much as possibe.  Has anyone had any experience with Combivent?  My dr. has me on it evey 4 hrs to help with bronchial spasms (shortness of breath).  I am told it is a combination of Atrovent and Proventil. Can anyone clue me in as to the safety and any side effects of this drug?  My dr says it is completely safe. thanks for your help.  Any tips on managing this respiratory condition will be helpful.  Thanks.  Bill

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Question:

hello everyone

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hello there — Its aspect gives the angels power, Since none can solve Thee nor Thy ways; And all Thy works beyond us tower, Sublime as on the first of days. -Raphael, Gabriel, Michael    -Faust ~Mirage Zero  ICQ 99218616

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hello everyone

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hi. please stop worrying about me. i am fine. normal ol’ robin. kay? just not up to dancing naked for you right now. robin p/e

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Really happy to see you back. There is nothing to apologise for that I have seen. Just really happy that your OK.  Love   Andrew – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi. please stop worrying about me. i am fine. normal ol’ robin. kay? just not up to dancing naked for you right now. robin p/e

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Hi Robin. Welcome back. Sure glad you’re here.  Stan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi. please stop worrying about me. i am fine. normal ol’ robin. kay? just not up to dancing naked for you right now. robin p/e

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hi. please stop worrying about me. i am fine. normal ol’ robin. kay? just not up to dancing naked for you right now. robin p/e

I’m so pleased you are ok, Robin. I’m sorry you had to go through such a rough time. Please take care, and post whenever you want. You will always be welcome in my book. Love, Doughnut Girdle your grummits, rollock your fussits, tether your nadgers and plight your cordwangle – ramblin syd rumpo — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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hi. please stop worrying about me. i am fine. normal ol’ robin. kay? just not up to dancing naked for you right now.=20 robin p/e

BUMmer!  :) kcat [who can appreciate the freedom that dancing naked symbolizes] — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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hi. please stop worrying about me. i am fine. normal ol’ robin. kay? just not up to dancing naked for you right now. robin

here, ill dance nekkid for you.. they say if it dont kill ya it’ll cure ya… (im such a pal)

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is anyone reading my report Deborah

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is anyone reading my report Deborah It was long, boring, and off topic for this group. Any other questions?

hi ziggy Good thing i did not post my 49 page indepth study.  I am sorry you felt that way but many people suffer from chronic pain from exposure to this wood and do not realise, I am quite sure I am not off topic here.  Sorry I could not keep your interest.  Good luck to you. Deborah

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – is anyone reading my report Deborah It was long, boring, and off topic for this group. Any other questions? hi ziggy Good thing i did not post my 49 page indepth study.  I am sorry you felt that way but many people suffer from chronic pain from exposure to this wood and do not realise, I am quite sure I am not off topic here.  Sorry I could not keep your interest.  Good luck to you. Deborah Don’t take it personally… I bore easily. Maybe you’ll have better luck with the other people here. Take care. — Ziggy

maybe i could tell you jokes or something at least your taking to me. Deborah

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – is anyone reading my report Deborah It was long, boring, and off topic for this group. Any other questions? hi ziggy Good thing i did not post my 49 page indepth study.  I am sorry you felt that way but many people suffer from chronic pain from exposure to this wood and do not realise, I am quite sure I am not off topic here.  Sorry I could not keep your interest.  Good luck to you. Deborah Don’t take it personally… I bore easily. Maybe you’ll have better luck with the other people here. Take care. — Ziggy maybe i could tell you jokes or something at least your taking to me. Deborah I "take" to females pretty quickly. — Ziggy

whoooops i meant talking to me Deborah

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – is anyone reading my report Deborah It was long, boring, and off topic for this group. Any other questions? hi ziggy Good thing i did not post my 49 page indepth study.  I am sorry you felt that way but many people suffer from chronic pain from exposure to this wood and do not realise, I am quite sure I am not off topic here.  Sorry I could not keep your interest.  Good luck to you. Deborah Don’t take it personally… I bore easily. Maybe you’ll have better luck with the other people here. Take care. maybe i could tell you jokes or something at least your taking to me. Deborah I "take" to females pretty quickly. whoooops i meant talking to me Deborah Darn… I thought that was the first joke. — Ziggy

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – is anyone reading my report Deborah It was long, boring, and off topic for this group. Any other questions? hi ziggy Good thing i did not post my 49 page indepth study.  I am sorry you felt that way but many people suffer from chronic pain from exposure to this wood and do not realise, I am quite sure I am not off topic here.  Sorry I could not keep your interest.  Good luck to you. Deborah Don’t take it personally… I bore easily. Maybe you’ll have better luck with the other people here. Take care. maybe i could tell you jokes or something at least your taking to me. Deborah I "take" to females pretty quickly. whoooops i meant talking to me Deborah Darn… I thought that was the first joke. — Ziggy

gee you do make me smile Deborah

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – is anyone reading my report It was long, boring, and off topic for this group. Any other questions? hi ziggy Good thing i did not post my 49 page indepth study.  I am sorry you felt that way but many people suffer from chronic pain from exposure to this wood and do not realise, I am quite sure I am not off topic here.  Sorry I could not keep your interest.  Good luck to you. Don’t take it personally… I bore easily. Maybe you’ll have better luck with the other people here. Take care. maybe i could tell you jokes or something at least your taking to me. I "take" to females pretty quickly. whoooops i meant talking to me Darn… I thought that was the first joke. gee you do make me smile See what happens when you stop talking about wood. — Ziggy

gee ziggy are you one of the those guys from the chemical companies with a whole new approach to side track me       now thats my first joke Deborah

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – is anyone reading my report It was long, boring, and off topic for this group. Any other questions? hi ziggy Good thing i did not post my 49 page indepth study.  I am sorry you felt that way but many people suffer from chronic pain from exposure to this wood and do not realise, I am quite sure I am not off topic here.  Sorry I could not keep your interest.  Good luck to you. Don’t take it personally… I bore easily. Maybe you’ll have better luck with the other people here. Take care. maybe i could tell you jokes or something at least your taking to me. I "take" to females pretty quickly. whoooops i meant talking to me Darn… I thought that was the first joke. gee you do make me smile See what happens when you stop talking about wood. gee ziggy are you one of the those guys from the chemical companies with a whole new approach to side track me       now thats my first joke I see we need to work on your joke writing skills. lol — Ziggy

Deborah

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – is anyone reading my report It was long, boring, and off topic for this group. Any other questions? hi ziggy Good thing i did not post my 49 page indepth study.  I am sorry you felt that way but many people suffer from chronic pain from exposure to this wood and do not realise, I am quite sure I am not off topic here.  Sorry I could not keep your interest.  Good luck to you. Don’t take it personally… I bore easily. Maybe you’ll have better luck with the other people here. Take care. maybe i could tell you jokes or something at least your taking to me. I "take" to females pretty quickly. whoooops i meant talking to me Darn… I thought that was the first joke. gee you do make me smile See what happens when you stop talking about wood. gee ziggy are you one of the those guys from the chemical companies with a whole new approach to side track me       now thats my first joke I see we need to work on your joke writing skills. lol Okay… you can romance me with poetry. — Ziggy

SWEET RELEASE I often faint beneath the load Of pressure on my mind And though I try to find my way I stumble like the blind Emotions rage and teardrops fall And tender mercies flee As all my thoughts become a trap That will not set me free At last I fall upon my knees To call a name so sweet And take my worries fears and cares Then lay them at his feet I wonder why I always fight To keep what brings me pain To struggle in the storms of life While teardrops fall like rain When in a moments time I could Call out my Saviours name And find the answer that I seek by Deborah Elaine Barrie

Response:

Not likely — I am ready to stuff her where there is no light.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – is anyone reading my report Deborah It was long, boring, and off topic for this group. Any other questions? hi ziggy Good thing i did not post my 49 page indepth study.  I am sorry you felt that way but many people suffer from chronic pain from exposure to this wood and do not realise, I am quite sure I am not off topic here. Sorry I could not keep your interest.  Good luck to you. Deborah Don’t take it personally… I bore easily. Maybe you’ll have better luck with the other people here. Take care. — Ziggy

Response:

That’s nice Deborah, thank you:)

is anyone reading my report It was long, boring, and off topic for this group. Any other questions? hi ziggy Good thing i did not post my 49 page indepth study.  I am sorry you felt that way but many people suffer from chronic pain from exposure to this wood and do not realise, I am quite sure I am not off

topic here.  Sorry I – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – could not keep your interest.  Good luck to you. Don’t take it personally… I bore easily. Maybe you’ll have better luck with the other people here. Take care. maybe i could tell you jokes or something at least your taking to me. I "take" to females pretty quickly. whoooops i meant talking to me Darn… I thought that was the first joke. gee you do make me smile See what happens when you stop talking about wood. gee ziggy are you one of the those guys from the chemical companies with a whole new approach to side track me       now thats my first joke I see we need to work on your joke writing skills. lol Okay… you can romance me with poetry. — Ziggy SWEET RELEASE I often faint beneath the load Of pressure on my mind And though I try to find my way I stumble like the blind Emotions rage and teardrops fall And tender mercies flee As all my thoughts become a trap That will not set me free At last I fall upon my knees To call a name so sweet And take my worries fears and cares Then lay them at his feet I wonder why I always fight To keep what brings me pain To struggle in the storms of life While teardrops fall like rain When in a moments time I could Call out my Saviours name And find the answer that I seek by Deborah Elaine Barrie

Response:

you are very welcome  thank you Deborah – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s nice Deborah, thank you:) is anyone reading my report It was long, boring, and off topic for this group. Any other questions? hi ziggy Good thing i did not post my 49 page indepth study.  I am sorry you felt that way but many people suffer from chronic pain from exposure to this wood and do not realise, I am quite sure I am not off topic here.  Sorry I could not keep your interest.  Good luck to you. Don’t take it personally… I bore easily. Maybe you’ll have better luck with the other people here. Take care. maybe i could tell you jokes or something at least your taking to me. I "take" to females pretty quickly. whoooops i meant talking to me Darn… I thought that was the first joke. gee you do make me smile See what happens when you stop talking about wood. gee ziggy are you one of the those guys from the chemical companies with a whole new approach to side track me       now thats my first joke I see we need to work on your joke writing skills. lol Okay… you can romance me with poetry. — Ziggy SWEET RELEASE I often faint beneath the load Of pressure on my mind And though I try to find my way I stumble like the blind Emotions rage and teardrops fall And tender mercies flee As all my thoughts become a trap That will not set me free At last I fall upon my knees To call a name so sweet And take my worries fears and cares Then lay them at his feet I wonder why I always fight To keep what brings me pain To struggle in the storms of life While teardrops fall like rain When in a moments time I could Call out my Saviours name And find the answer that I seek by Deborah Elaine Barrie

Response:

gee Ruada want have i done to you to make you so bitter Deborah – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not likely — I am ready to stuff her where there is no light. is anyone reading my report Deborah It was long, boring, and off topic for this group. Any other questions? hi ziggy Good thing i did not post my 49 page indepth study.  I am sorry you felt that way but many people suffer from chronic pain from exposure to this wood and do not realise, I am quite sure I am not off topic here. Sorry I could not keep your interest.  Good luck to you. Deborah Don’t take it personally… I bore easily. Maybe you’ll have better luck with the other people here. Take care. — Ziggy

Response:

and this group is known for always stayng close to the topic.

Response:

Who Ruada?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not likely — I am ready to stuff her where there is no light. is anyone reading my report Deborah It was long, boring, and off topic for this group. Any other questions? hi ziggy Good thing i did not post my 49 page indepth study.  I am sorry you felt that way but many people suffer from chronic pain from exposure to this wood and do not realise, I am quite sure I am not off topic here. Sorry I could not keep your interest.  Good luck to you. Deborah Don’t take it personally… I bore easily. Maybe you’ll have better luck with the other people here. Take care. — Ziggy

Response:

oh now theres a story but way too long Deborah – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SWEET RELEASE I often faint beneath the load Of pressure on my mind And though I try to find my way I stumble like the blind Emotions rage and teardrops fall And tender mercies flee As all my thoughts become a trap That will not set me free At last I fall upon my knees To call a name so sweet And take my worries fears and cares Then lay them at his feet I wonder why I always fight To keep what brings me pain To struggle in the storms of life While teardrops fall like rain When in a moments time I could Call out my Saviours name And find the answer that I seek by Deborah Elaine Barrie Nice poem. Is that how you won over the hubby? — Ziggy

Response:

I explained that in several of my other posts.   You should read them too. It is not you in particular — just all the fools and such that do silly, stupid, wasteful, boring, tedious, garbage on usenet. And 9kb off-topic (with no hint as to why it might be relevant) posts hit just about all of those things. As does stirring up a hornets nest and then making a newbie claim.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – gee Ruada want have i done to you to make you so bitter Deborah Not likely — I am ready to stuff her where there is no light. is anyone reading my report Deborah It was long, boring, and off topic for this group. Any other questions? hi ziggy Good thing i did not post my 49 page indepth study.  I am sorry you felt that way but many people suffer from chronic pain from exposure to this wood and do not realise, I am quite sure I am not off topic here. Sorry I could not keep your interest.  Good luck to you. Deborah Don’t take it personally… I bore easily. Maybe you’ll have better luck with the other people here. Take care. — Ziggy

Response:

okay Ruada i releasse you are pain but that is quite that attitude you have there. Maybe thats what it takes to operate here, but no thanks id rather leave Deborah – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I explained that in several of my other posts.   You should read them too. It is not you in particular — just all the fools and such that do silly, stupid, wasteful, boring, tedious, garbage on usenet. And 9kb off-topic (with no hint as to why it might be relevant) posts hit just about all of those things. As does stirring up a hornets nest and then making a newbie claim. gee Ruada want have i done to you to make you so bitter Deborah Not likely — I am ready to stuff her where there is no light. is anyone reading my report Deborah It was long, boring, and off topic for this group. Any other questions? hi ziggy Good thing i did not post my 49 page indepth study.  I am sorry you felt that way but many people suffer from chronic pain from exposure to this wood and do not realise, I am quite sure I am not off topic here. Sorry I could not keep your interest.  Good luck to you. Deborah Don’t take it personally… I bore easily. Maybe you’ll have better luck with the other people here. Take care. — Ziggy

Response:

Deborah please don’t leave….remember that ruada is not the whole group ok? catherine

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – okay Ruada i releasse you are pain but that is quite that attitude you have there. Maybe thats what it takes to operate here, but no thanks id rather leave Deborah I explained that in several of my other posts.   You should read them too. It is not you in particular — just all the fools and such that do silly, stupid, wasteful, boring, tedious, garbage on usenet. And 9kb off-topic (with no hint as to why it might be relevant) posts hit just about all of those things. As does stirring up a hornets nest and then making a newbie claim. gee Ruada want have i done to you to make you so bitter Deborah Not likely — I am ready to stuff her where there is no light. is anyone reading my report Deborah It was long, boring, and off topic for this group. Any other questions? hi ziggy Good thing i did not post my 49 page indepth study.  I am sorry you felt that way but many people suffer from chronic pain from exposure to this wood and do not realise, I am quite sure I am not off topic here. Sorry I could not keep your interest.  Good luck to you. Deborah Don’t take it personally… I bore easily. Maybe you’ll have better luck with the other people here. Take care. — Ziggy

Response:

thanks catherine i have decided to stay i had a nap and remembered why i am doing this Deborah – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Deborah please don’t leave….remember that ruada is not the whole group ok? catherine okay Ruada i releasse you are pain but that is quite that attitude you have there. Maybe thats what it takes to operate here, but no thanks id rather leave Deborah I explained that in several of my other posts.   You should read them too. It is not you in particular — just all the fools and such that do silly, stupid, wasteful, boring, tedious, garbage on usenet. And 9kb off-topic (with no hint as to why it might be relevant) posts hit just about all of those things. As does stirring up a hornets nest and then making a newbie claim. gee Ruada want have i done to you to make you so bitter Deborah Not likely — I am ready to stuff her where there is no light. is anyone reading my report Deborah It was long, boring, and off topic for this group. Any other questions? hi ziggy Good thing i did not post my 49 page indepth study.  I am sorry you felt that way but many people suffer from chronic pain from exposure to this wood and do not realise, I am quite sure I am not off topic here. Sorry I could not keep your interest.  Good luck to you. Deborah Don’t take it personally… I bore easily. Maybe you’ll have better luck with the other people here. Take care. — Ziggy

Response:

i am just answering questions, do you have one Deborah – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and this group is known for always stayng close to the topic.

Response:

: i am just answering questions, do you have one : Deborah I have a question!  Do you understand the meaning of the word "sarcasm"? Mouse :

: : and this group is known for always stayng close to the topic. :

Response:

i’ve been lurking for a couple days and this ng seems to be a place where people can dump.  that’s good because people in chronic pain need to dump. ok here is my story.  i’m not asking for sympathy or anything,  just a place to dump.  thanks. Back in 1985 my husband ruptured some disks.  Over the years he went through 3 back surgeries.  Now his back is fused.  He was doing ok for a few years. it’s getting bad again.  His doctor says if his fusion breaks they will do this surgery where they remove the bad vertibrae and replace it with a steel cage.  Everyone raves about this,  but because my husband’s fusion is intact,  they are afraid they will hurt him more to try it.  In the meantime they put him on Oxy something (morphine dirivitive.)  He can’t put weight on his right leg for more than a second. So as you can imagine he is losing his mind with the pain.  My whole house is filled with pain vibes and I worry that he could die from the pain.  Yes that might seem silly to some yet such pain stresses every part of a persons body. Back in 1988,  I was diagnosed with FMS.  Never heard of it,  all I knew was it hurt,  it effected my vision and my balance and my sleep.  I was fortunate in that I had a good rhuemy who helped me figure out how to take care of myself and deal with it.  (Also I am fortunate because I am a very spiritual person who has a close relationship with the spirit world.  No I am not preaching but that can really a help a person in trying times.)  My rheumy gave my sinequon,  which is a horrible drug but that was all he was allowed to give since he was a military doctor.  After exiting the military, I was able to control my FMS by carefully watching my diet,  smoking pot (egads,  what a bad person I am!)  exercising like crazy,  and staying out of the sun.  Little did I realize that meant something else.  In 1998, feeling that my FMS was getting worse,  I found a new rheumy.  She put me on Soma which helped the FMS immensley.  She also gave me a very tiny doze of sinequon for those times when I need it.  But I am not to take it every day like I did before.  But,  alas,  after a few months of this I was not doing better.  Suddenly,  I could no longer run my 3 or 4 miles 3 times a week. And I could not breath!  Bronchitis,  bronchitis,  pleuresy,  exhaustion,  I lost 30 pounds,  the pain and swelling in joints that never used to hurt before?  what was wrong?  Went back to the rhuemy,  and she did blood work. My ANA was borderline positive.  So now I am diagnosed with borderline lupus. Well it doesn’t feel borderline to me.  But anyway,  it hurts,  plus I always feel sick.  Some days I can’t even get up.  I am on all kinds of meds now,  prednisone,  plaquenil,  a little soma now and then.  the only thing she can give me for pain is vicodin.  sounds weird but i am allergic to nsaids i guess becasuse whenever i take them i can’t breath.  All of them, even the brand new ones.  The only one I can take is lodine,  but only every other day and then only for about a couple weeks at a time,  and then i have to stop and take a break from it.  But I only take a half a vicodin 7.5 three times a day,  because a whole one feels to strong. So anyway that is my story.  Both myself and my husband are chronic pain / chronic illness people.  I don’t know what will happen in about 10 or 20 mores years when we are both complete invalids and can’t do anything at all for ourselves. thanks for putting up with my dump. ovate

Response:

Lori, Welcome to the group, sorry that you found us, but thank goodness you have.  We all dump here every once in a while, and we also can get people to give some good advice, like when you replied to my post. I will be praying for you and your husband and hope that everything will go a little easier for you both. Gayle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’ve been lurking for a couple days and this ng seems to be a place where people can dump.  that’s good because people in chronic pain need to dump. ok here is my story.  i’m not asking for sympathy or anything,  just a place to dump.  thanks. Back in 1985 my husband ruptured some disks.  Over the years he went through 3 back surgeries.  Now his back is fused.  He was doing ok for a few years. it’s getting bad again.  His doctor says if his fusion breaks they will do this surgery where they remove the bad vertibrae and replace it with a steel cage.  Everyone raves about this,  but because my husband’s fusion is intact,  they are afraid they will hurt him more to try it.  In the meantime they put him on Oxy something (morphine dirivitive.)  He can’t put weight on his right leg for more than a second. So as you can imagine he is losing his mind with the pain.  My whole house is filled with pain vibes and I worry that he could die from the pain.  Yes that might seem silly to some yet such pain stresses every part of a persons body. Back in 1988,  I was diagnosed with FMS.  Never heard of it,  all I knew was it hurt,  it effected my vision and my balance and my sleep.  I was fortunate in that I had a good rhuemy who helped me figure out how to take care of myself and deal with it.  (Also I am fortunate because I am a very spiritual person who has a close relationship with the spirit world. No I am not preaching but that can really a help a person in trying times.)  My rheumy gave my sinequon,  which is a horrible drug but that was all he was allowed to give since he was a military doctor.  After exiting the military, I was able to control my FMS by carefully watching my diet,  smoking pot (egads,  what a bad person I am!)  exercising like crazy,  and staying out of the sun.  Little did I realize that meant something else.  In 1998, feeling that my FMS was getting worse,  I found a new rheumy.  She put me on Soma which helped the FMS immensley.  She also gave me a very tiny doze of sinequon for those times when I need it.  But I am not to take it every day like I did before.  But,  alas,  after a few months of this I was not doing better.  Suddenly,  I could no longer run my 3 or 4 miles 3 times a week. And I could not breath!  Bronchitis,  bronchitis,  pleuresy, exhaustion,  I lost 30 pounds,  the pain and swelling in joints that never used to hurt before?  what was wrong?  Went back to the rhuemy,  and she did blood work. My ANA was borderline positive.  So now I am diagnosed with borderline lupus. Well it doesn’t feel borderline to me.  But anyway,  it hurts,  plus I always feel sick.  Some days I can’t even get up.  I am on all kinds of meds now,  prednisone,  plaquenil,  a little soma now and then.  the only thing she can give me for pain is vicodin.  sounds weird but i am allergic to nsaids i guess becasuse whenever i take them i can’t breath.  All of them, even the brand new ones.  The only one I can take is lodine,  but only every other day and then only for about a couple weeks at a time,  and then i have to stop and take a break from it.  But I only take a half a vicodin 7.5 three times a day,  because a whole one feels to strong. So anyway that is my story.  Both myself and my husband are chronic pain / chronic illness people.  I don’t know what will happen in about 10 or 20 mores years when we are both complete invalids and can’t do anything at all for ourselves. thanks for putting up with my dump. ovate

Before you buy.

Response:

Hi Lori, I too have Lupus and FMS. I was dx’d with Lupus in 1989 and FMS in 1994. I also have DDD (degenerative disc disease) and am recovering from my 3rd discectomy/fusion that was done July 19 (all 3 have been successful – I just had so many discs that were really bad.) I am on alot of the same meds you are on. Has your doc ever tried Elavil for your FMS? I take 150 mg at night (which is a high dose), but it works great. I also take Lodine twice a day. It’s hard on my stomach, so I also take Prilosec. I also take Soma 3x/day. I have tried to get off of it, but I just end up increasing my vicodin, so I’ve resolved to take it as long as I need it. I’ve been on vicodin for 7 years in varying doses and I’m grateful that it still controls my pain. I am not currently on Plaquenil because after being on it for 10 years, my ANA would never go lower than 1280 so my doc felt the risk outweighed the benefit. I don’t really miss it, either. I definitely don’t miss having to go to the Ophthalmologist every 6 months. ANYWAY, that’s me – I just wanted to say hi. I know it helps to have people who can relate and I definitely can. I hope you can stick around awhile – it is the one place on earth where it’s okay to dump because the people here really do understand! Sounds like you have your share of hard times right now, but just know this group is here. Feel free to email me anytime. Hugs, — Shell RN Chronic Pain Foundation http://www.ChronicPainFoundation.org and http://www.ChronicPainFoundation.com ShellRN64 is my ID or nickname on: ICQ, AOL, Yahoo and MSN

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’ve been lurking for a couple days and this ng seems to be a place where people can dump.  that’s good because people in chronic pain need to dump. ok here is my story.  i’m not asking for sympathy or anything,  just a place to dump.  thanks. Back in 1985 my husband ruptured some disks.  Over the years he went through 3 back surgeries.  Now his back is fused.  He was doing ok for a few years. it’s getting bad again.  His doctor says if his fusion breaks they will do this surgery where they remove the bad vertibrae and replace it with a steel cage.  Everyone raves about this,  but because my husband’s fusion is intact,  they are afraid they will hurt him more to try it.  In the meantime they put him on Oxy something (morphine dirivitive.)  He can’t put weight on his right leg for more than a second. So as you can imagine he is losing his mind with the pain.  My whole house is filled with pain vibes and I worry that he could die from the pain. Yes that might seem silly to some yet such pain stresses every part of a persons body. Back in 1988,  I was diagnosed with FMS.  Never heard of it,  all I knew was it hurt,  it effected my vision and my balance and my sleep.  I was fortunate in that I had a good rhuemy who helped me figure out how to take care of myself and deal with it.  (Also I am fortunate because I am a very spiritual person who has a close relationship with the spirit world.  No I am not preaching but that can really a help a person in trying times.)  My rheumy gave my sinequon,  which is a horrible drug but that was all he was allowed to give since he was a military doctor.  After exiting the military, I was able to control my FMS by carefully watching my diet,  smoking pot (egads,  what a bad person I am!)  exercising like crazy,  and staying out of the sun.  Little did I realize that meant something else.  In 1998, feeling that my FMS was getting worse,  I found a new rheumy.  She put me on Soma which helped the FMS immensley.  She also gave me a very tiny doze of sinequon for those times when I need it.  But I am not to take it every day like I did before.  But,  alas,  after a few months of this I was not doing better.  Suddenly,  I could no longer run my 3 or 4 miles 3 times a week. And I could not breath!  Bronchitis,  bronchitis,  pleuresy,  exhaustion, I lost 30 pounds,  the pain and swelling in joints that never used to hurt before?  what was wrong?  Went back to the rhuemy,  and she did blood work. My ANA was borderline positive.  So now I am diagnosed with borderline lupus. Well it doesn’t feel borderline to me.  But anyway,  it hurts,  plus I always feel sick.  Some days I can’t even get up.  I am on all kinds of meds now,  prednisone,  plaquenil,  a little soma now and then.  the only thing she can give me for pain is vicodin.  sounds weird but i am allergic to nsaids i guess becasuse whenever i take them i can’t breath.  All of them, even the brand new ones.  The only one I can take is lodine,  but only every other day and then only for about a couple weeks at a time,  and then i have to stop and take a break from it.  But I only take a half a vicodin 7.5 three times a day,  because a whole one feels to strong. So anyway that is my story.  Both myself and my husband are chronic pain / chronic illness people.  I don’t know what will happen in about 10 or 20 mores years when we are both complete invalids and can’t do anything at all for ourselves. thanks for putting up with my dump. ovate

Response:

What’s the use of Ventolin

It is a short-acting bronchodilator used to relieve bronchospasm. Chris Owens

Response:

What’s the use of Ventolin

Ventolin is a brand name of albuterol. Other brand names (in inhaler form) are Proventil and Proventil HFA. albuterol is a short-term (4 hour) quick-acting (5- 15 minutes or so) bronchodilator. it is a beta2 agonist which I unfortunately can’t tell you much about other than people with some sorts of heart problems need to be careful about it. It is used before physical activity by those with exercise-induced asthma, and it is used as a rescue drug by almost all asthmatics. it really shouldn’t need to be used on a daily basis, unless you have EIA and are exercising daily. otherwise you need a different sort of medication such as an inhaled steroid. common side effects are shaking, nervousness, headache, lightheadedness or dizziness. those are reduced in the people who have them by using a spacer or (better) an Aerochamber. — Emily

Response:

What’s the use of Ventolin

Response:

What’s the use of Ventolin

Ventolin is a bronchodilator and is used for ease of wheezing, breathlessness etc.

Response:

What’s the use of Ventolin

Ventolin (albuterol in the US, Salabuterol everywhere else) is a bronchodilator.  This medication relaxes the bronchial muscles, ending the spasming that shuts off the airways. Due to its relatively short duration of effect and quick action it is the medication of choice in relieving acute asthma symptoms. "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." Einstein

Response:

Is anyone there?

Response:

Yes. And I can almost bet this will be a fun thread! — Good Fishing. And may your fish be as big as your tales!

Response:

Is anyone there?

Who Dave???? DAVES NOT HERE.

Response:

Who’s on first!

Response:

B, Is anyone there?

Nope, but I saw Bob pass through here a while ago. Richard Remove the nospam to send e-mail.

Response:

Where exactly is "there"?  Where are you [from]?  I mean this is not interactive if that is what you are thinking although I get a lot of information from this site through osmosis.  Actually it might be interactive as I am not fortunate to have Dragon Software or that other crappy voice recognition software so I have to manually "interact" with my keyboard.  I guess I am not with the modern advances in technology, , , But I am"here" or "there". BAZZMAN

Response:

Is anyone there?

overtime)   Still Strippin’ Line in Pa,   George

Response:

Is anyone there?

No.

Response:

So "its" really what the meaning of "it" is #:)

Response:

You called?

Response:

Not so bad a guess! — Good Fishing. And may your fish be as big as your tales!

Response:

Not so bad a guess!

Pretty damn good guess, I’d say! Ed Phillippe — Good Fishing. And may your fish be as big as your tales!

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Response:

Welcome to the group Hooker. There is excellent bass fishing in the Suffolk Lakes not far from you. The lakes are restricted to 9.9 hp or less and are open sunrise to sunset. Email me and I’ll share what I know of these lakes, including directions. — Early to Bed, Early to Rise…    Fish all Day, Make up Lies    Shawn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I’m new to your newsgroup.  I’ve been reading posts here for about a week and like what I see. I’m also new to the Chesapeake, Virginia are if anyone out there know of any good fishing holes. –Basshooker

Response:

Welcome to our little group! If you can’t get an answer here, then you can’t get one o:) — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I’m new to your newsgroup.  I’ve been reading posts here for about a week and like what I see. I’m also new to the Chesapeake, Virginia are if anyone out there know of any good fishing holes. –Basshooker

Response:

Rodman, you forgot to mention that the earlier in the day it is, the more sober we are and the more honest and accurate our postings might be . . . . hic!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Welcome to our little group! If you can’t get an answer here, then you can’t get one o:) — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe! Hello, I’m new to your newsgroup.  I’ve been reading posts here for about a week and like what I see. I’m also new to the Chesapeake, Virginia are if anyone out there know of any good fishing holes. –Basshooker

Response:

Thanks for the welcome Rodmaker and I did get an answer here:) PS: think you need to loose the halo;) –Basshooker

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Welcome to our little group! If you can’t get an answer here, then you can’t get one o:) — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe! Hello, I’m new to your newsgroup.  I’ve been reading posts here for about a week and like what I see. I’m also new to the Chesapeake, Virginia are if anyone out there know of any good fishing holes. –Basshooker

Response:

Welcome Basshooker… this is a great group with a great bunch of guys and gals..great to have you on board.     Josh

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I’m new to your newsgroup.  I’ve been reading posts here for about a week and like what I see. I’m also new to the Chesapeake, Virginia are if anyone out there know of any good fishing holes. –Basshooker

Response:

Once you get read a few more of my posts ,you will realize that it is not a halo; but rather a pitchfork that I carry….hehehe! — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the welcome Rodmaker and I did get an answer here:) PS: think you need to loose the halo;) –Basshooker Welcome to our little group! If you can’t get an answer here, then you can’t get one o:) — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe! Hello, I’m new to your newsgroup.  I’ve been reading posts here for about a week and like what I see. I’m also new to the Chesapeake, Virginia are if anyone out there know of any good fishing holes. –Basshooker

Response:

Welcome BH.  Look forward to you participation here … be prepared to roll your pants legs up at any given moment though. A classic:   http://tcastle.com/games/asteroids/asteroids.html * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Obviously your a live one Rodmaker:)  I’ll try and stay on your good side:) –Basshooker

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Once you get read a few more of my posts ,you will realize that it is not a halo; but rather a pitchfork that I carry….hehehe! — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe! Thanks for the welcome Rodmaker and I did get an answer here:) PS: think you need to loose the halo;) –Basshooker Welcome to our little group! If you can’t get an answer here, then you can’t get one o:) — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe! Hello, I’m new to your newsgroup.  I’ve been reading posts here for about a week and like what I see. I’m also new to the Chesapeake, Virginia are if anyone out there know of any good fishing holes. –Basshooker

Response:

Well, I do tend to get the dander up at times! But rest assured that there will be a good cause at stake! — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Obviously your a live one Rodmaker:)  I’ll try and stay on your good side:) –Basshooker Once you get read a few more of my posts ,you will realize that it is not a halo; but rather a pitchfork that I carry….hehehe! — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe! Thanks for the welcome Rodmaker and I did get an answer here:) PS: think you need to loose the halo;) –Basshooker Welcome to our little group! If you can’t get an answer here, then you can’t get one o:) — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe! Hello, I’m new to your newsgroup.  I’ve been reading posts here for about a week and like what I see. I’m also new to the Chesapeake, Virginia are if anyone out there know of any good fishing holes. –Basshooker

Response:

I love that game….I could play for hours… — Early to Bed, Early to Rise…    Fish all Day, Make up Lies    Shawn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A classic: http://tcastle.com/games/asteroids/asteroids.html

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Oh ya that game!    I thought that was what Al got from sitting in his canoe all day  =8^)) —                                 Steve from Stony

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I love that game….I could play for hours… — Early to Bed, Early to Rise…    Fish all Day, Make up Lies    Shawn A classic: http://tcastle.com/games/asteroids/asteroids.html

Response:

something???  It was a joke man! Nothing personal!  Chill dude!   Who says anyone is  "right" in this group anyway?  We’re all a bit out there! —                             Steve from Stony

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re not right either, but we all know that. — Early to Bed, Early to Rise…    Fish all Day, Make up Lies    Shawn

Response:

Keep your guard up at all times Hooker, he’s a tricky one, hehehe . — Early to Bed, Early to Rise…    Fish all Day, Make up Lies    Shawn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I do tend to get the dander up at times! But rest assured that there will be a good cause at stake! — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe! Obviously your a live one Rodmaker:)  I’ll try and stay on your good side:) –Basshooker Once you get read a few more of my posts ,you will realize that it is not a halo; but rather a pitchfork that I carry….hehehe! — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe! Thanks for the welcome Rodmaker and I did get an answer here:) PS: think you need to loose the halo;) –Basshooker Welcome to our little group! If you can’t get an answer here, then you can’t get one o:) — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe! Hello, I’m new to your newsgroup.  I’ve been reading posts here for about a week and like what I see. I’m also new to the Chesapeake, Virginia are if anyone out there know of any good fishing holes. –Basshooker

Response:

You’re not right either, but we all know that. — Early to Bed, Early to Rise…    Fish all Day, Make up Lies    Shawn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh ya that game!    I thought that was what Al got from sitting in his canoe all day  =8^)) —                                 Steve from Stony I love that game….I could play for hours… — Early to Bed, Early to Rise…    Fish all Day, Make up Lies    Shawn A classic: http://tcastle.com/games/asteroids/asteroids.html

Response:

The tears are streaming down the cheeks Steve.  And they aren’t sweat. —      Everyone has an Ego, Some are larger than Others – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh ya that game!    I thought that was what Al got from sitting in his canoe all day  =8^)) —                                 Steve from Stony I love that game….I could play for hours… — Early to Bed, Early to Rise…    Fish all Day, Make up Lies    Shawn A classic: http://tcastle.com/games/asteroids/asteroids.html

Response:

I’m not,  I admit it.  You caught me.  I do the unconventional when fishing, I stand up in my canoe so I don’t get asteroids. —      Everyone has an Ego, Some are larger than Others – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – something???  It was a joke man! Nothing personal!  Chill dude!   Who says anyone is  "right" in this group anyway?  We’re all a bit out there! —                             Steve from Stony You’re not right either, but we all know that. — Early to Bed, Early to Rise…    Fish all Day, Make up Lies    Shawn

Response:

Hi Angel Jude, You and Jan both are right. If this doctor has known this for the year I was using inhalers the least she could have done was clue me in. I watched my Mom suffer so much with being on 6 litres of oxygen all the time and she had an asthma attack maybe 2 times a year and then the last 3 years of her life all of a sudden emphysema sets in and she is using all that O2 well. Dale and I are going to look elsewhere because I do need to find someone who is on my side not the side of her rude staff. I love you both and Jan talked on ICQ until 500 this a.m. to help me through. Gosh I know God has put all of you in my life and I am going to keep you all. My ASD family means the world to me. Love Diana — Don’t Believe in Miracles…….Rely on Them – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Diana, this seems odd talking to you here at the same time we are ICQ’ing  I don’t like your doctor or the staff. Is it possible to make a diagnosis without tests?  Tell me this isn’t so.  Once that weight goes girl, you will feel heaps better, trust me.  And you are not going to die, at least not for quite a while yet  And your doctor sounds very irresponsible laying stuff on you without a definite diagnosis.  I have only met 2 irresponsible doctors in my life and both told me that the tumours (two different times in my life) that they had just removed from my body were malignant, in both cases they were way wrong!  But not until I had lived a few weeks of hell thinking I was going to die and who was going to raise my kids!  Plus what sort of doctor’s staff yells at you??  If you can tell a person has a serious lung disease by listening to your chest then I am going to buy myself a medical degree off the net! Is there no other doctor in your area?  I know I sound angry, cause I am.  This kind of stupidity on a doctor’s part shouldn’t be condoned.  Now no more talk of dying, I won’t allow it Jan, it is amazing how you and I often travel down the same thought path.  I know Diana has a new insurance plan this year, but I’m not sure of her options.  I didn’t want to diss [1] her doctor, because she needs to have someone to trust, and this might be the only one available. Diana, take Jan’s words to heart.  And no talk of dying — we’ll all reach that stage, so let’s put it far into the future. Love. Jude —        Crouch Enterprises – Telecom, Internet & Unix Consulting      Oak Park, IL  708-848-0134  URL: http://www.pobox.com/~jcrouch

Response:

Tony Thank you for my hug I sure do need it. I will be ok because I have all of you. Thanks so very much for caring. Love Diana — Don’t Believe in Miracles…….Rely on Them – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Diana Sorry to hear your news … have been reading all of the related posts and haven’t anything new to add, except, HUG. Great news re the weight loss, just keep doing it. Regards Tony

Response:

diana im a new diabetic and i hate it but am tryting to deal with it. dont give up, people can live with empysema for a long time. keep on trying menatl attitude is so important    Heres a hug for you (((( )))))     your new buddy   Cheri

Response:

Cheri I hate that you have diabetes but I am glad to get to know you. Thank you for such a sweet note. I won’t give up because I have all of you who care and uplift me when I am down. I love my hug from you, Thanks I am a huggy kind of person. I am honored to have you for my new buddy too. (((HUG))) back at you. Diana — Don’t Believe in Miracles…….Rely on Them – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – diana im a new diabetic and i hate it but am tryting to deal with it. dont give up, people can live with empysema for a long time. keep on trying menatl attitude is so important    Heres a hug for you (((( )))))     your new buddy Cheri

Response:

Hi Tru, You are so precious to me. Thanks for being so sweet. Diana — Don’t Believe in Miracles…….Rely on Them – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Angel Jude, You and Jan both are right. If this doctor has known this for the year I was using inhalers the least she could have done was clue me in. I watched my Mom suffer so much with being on 6 litres of oxygen all the time and she had an asthma attack maybe 2 times a year and then the last 3 years of her life all of a sudden emphysema sets in and she is using all that O2 well. Dale and I are going to look elsewhere because I do need to find someone who is on my side not the side of her rude staff. I love you both and Jan talked on ICQ until 500 this a.m. to help me through. Gosh I know God has put all of you in my life and I am going to keep you all. My ASD family means the world to me. And you in our lives. Thanks — Always Tru

Response:

Now carol, hows it going, have missed you the past couple of days, everything ok there? Jan

I’m OK folks. But now that I’m not in excruciating pain, the Epstein Barr is taking over  and I’m sleeping bout 12 hours a day.  I feel better though, not so tired, more energetic. I know that sounds irrational but true.   Carol

Response:

Carol Good to see you and I am glad that you are feeling a little better and the pain has subsided. Take Care and we missed you. (((HUG))) Diana — Don’t Believe in Miracles…….Rely on Them – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now carol, hows it going, have missed you the past couple of days, everything ok there? Jan I’m OK folks. But now that I’m not in excruciating pain, the Epstein Barr is taking over  and I’m sleeping bout 12 hours a day.  I feel better though, not so tired, more energetic. I know that sounds irrational but true. Carol

Response:

I have no experience with that. But we all do care about you.  And know that you can do anything you set your mind to do.  Jude is right, losing weight can’t hurt, and certainly CAN help.  We are all thinking about you. Remember that. Rebecca

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well Jude to be honest I wouldn’t have come this far without the love and support of this group and the hope of meeting you and Charlie and Mom. I think Dale will help more now though because it scared him too. It is my own fault for not taking care of myself better,  but I am now going to be on an antidepressant because I am a mood eater and when I am sad which is alot here lately I eat too much so I will get better. I have you all pulling for me and that is what love is and I can feel the love and prayers from all of you. Now you have to do the same for me mister 84 year old lungs. I don’t want to lose you either. I just found you. Love Diana

Response:

Rebecca, Thank you for your kindness. And also thanks for keeping me in your thoughts. I will do just fine because I have all of you pulling for me and that in itself is the greatest blessing. Thanks for the hugs and I send you some too (((((((HUGS))))))) Diana — Don’t Believe in Miracles…….Rely on Them – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – goes, I have no experience with that. But we all do care about you.  And know that you can do anything you set your mind to do.  Jude is right, losing weight can’t hurt, and certainly CAN help.  We are all thinking about you. Remember that. Rebecca Well Jude to be honest I wouldn’t have come this far without the love and support of this group and the hope of meeting you and Charlie and Mom. I think Dale will help more now though because it scared him too. It is my own fault for not taking care of myself better,  but I am now going to be on an antidepressant because I am a mood eater and when I am sad which is alot here lately I eat too much so I will get better. I have you all pulling for me and that is what love is and I can feel the love and prayers from all of you. Now you have to do the same for me mister 84 year old lungs. I don’t want to lose you either. I just found you. Love Diana

Response:

 Don’t give up! The healthier you keep your body the longer you live! Diabetes used to be a killer and its not like that anymore! Perhaps we’ll see that happen with Emphysema!  HUGZ!!! Hi everyone. I sure could use a group hug right now. I am not a smoker and never have been and never will be and tonight at the doctors office she lays the bomb on me that I have Emphysema. How can that be? I told her about my Diabetes family and she told me to keep doing what I have been with all of you because I have lost another 4 lbs just in the last two weeks making it a total of 13 for the month. But why care if I am going to die of emphysema now? Love Diana — Don’t Believe in Miracles…….Rely on Them

–  T2 – Glucophage, diet, and exercise – March ‘98  Born ‘47  Another Soggy Seattle Sysop!

Response:

Thank you so much for the hugz I sure do need one. I will do better because I have all of you. Love Diana — Don’t Believe in Miracles…….Rely on Them – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t give up! The healthier you keep your body the longer you live! Diabetes used to be a killer and its not like that anymore! Perhaps we’ll see that happen with Emphysema! HUGZ!!! Hi everyone. I sure could use a group hug right now. I am not a smoker and never have been and never will be and tonight at the doctors office she lays the bomb on me that I have Emphysema. How can that be? I told her about my Diabetes family and she told me to keep doing what I have been with all of you because I have lost another 4 lbs just in the last two weeks making it a total of 13 for the month. But why care if I am going to die of emphysema now? Love Diana — Don’t Believe in Miracles…….Rely on Them — T2 – Glucophage, diet, and exercise – March ‘98  Born ‘47 Another Soggy Seattle Sysop!

Response:

But why care if I am going to die of emphysema now? Diana My grandfather liveed with emphysema for many years. This is not a death sentence. And you are losing weight. That will help. Honest. I’m sorry you’ve had another blow. It can be really depressing to have one thing after another happen to you. But you will go on and

there’s no reason to expect you are going to die soon just because of

emphysema. hear, hear.  Now carol, hows it going, have missed you the past couple of days, everything ok there? Jan

Response:

Diana Sorry to hear your news … have been reading all of the related posts and haven’t anything new to add, except, HUG. Great news re the weight loss, just keep doing it. Regards Tony

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Diana, this seems odd talking to you here at the same time we are ICQ’ing  I don’t like your doctor or the staff. Is it possible to make a diagnosis without tests?  Tell me this isn’t so.  Once that weight goes girl, you will feel heaps better, trust me.  And you are not going to die, at least not for quite a while yet  And your doctor sounds very irresponsible laying stuff on you without a definite diagnosis.  I have only met 2 irresponsible doctors in my life and both told me that the tumours (two different times in my life) that they had just removed from my body were malignant, in both cases they were way wrong!  But not until I had lived a few weeks of hell thinking I was going to die and who was going to raise my kids!  Plus what sort of doctor’s staff yells at you??  If you can tell a person has a serious lung disease by listening to your chest then I am going to buy myself a medical degree off the net! Is there no other doctor in your area?  I know I sound angry, cause I am.  This kind of stupidity on a doctor’s part shouldn’t be condoned.  Now no more talk of dying, I won’t allow it

Jan, it is amazing how you and I often travel down the same thought path.  I know Diana has a new insurance plan this year, but I’m not sure of her options.  I didn’t want to diss [1] her doctor, because she needs to have someone to trust, and this might be the only one available. Diana, take Jan’s words to heart.  And no talk of dying — we’ll all reach that stage, so let’s put it far into the future. Love. Jude —         Crouch Enterprises – Telecom, Internet & Unix Consulting       Oak Park, IL  708-848-0134  URL: http://www.pobox.com/~jcrouch

Response:

Well Jude to be honest I wouldn’t have come this far without the love and support of this group and the hope of meeting you and Charlie and Mom. I think Dale will help more now though because it scared him too. It is my own fault for not taking care of myself better,  but I am now going to be on an antidepressant because I am a mood eater and when I am sad which is alot here lately I eat too much so I will get better. I have you all pulling for me and that is what love is and I can feel the love and prayers from all of you. Now you have to do the same for me mister 84 year old lungs. I don’t want to lose you either. I just found you. Love Diana — Don’t Believe in Miracles…….Rely on Them – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Adrian you are just too sweet. I am scared because I lost my Mom 2.5 years ago from COPD and that is what my doctor said my diagnosis was tonight. She is pleased about everything else. I am on a decongestant for the next ten days to finish clearing up the sinus infection but I thought I only had Asthma and when she said Emphysema it really threw me. I say" die "not her because I watch my Momma suffer with it for only 3 years and then she was gone. I am 49 and I don’t want to die. You won’t die, Diana.  You have too many people who love you. You all gave me hope and she destroyed that hope in just one night. I don’t go around smoking because it takes my breath away so bad and I even have no smoking signs on my house. I sure hope you are right because I am not going to stop losing the weight. I have already started to feel better with just the 13 lbs. I can’t do anything except encourage you to lose the excess weight.  It will help *everything* that ails you.  13 pounds!  That’s great!  Besides, it means that you have not *gained* weight.  I know this is hard to understand, but that is really more important.  There are three states: gain weight, maintain weight, or lose weight.  For your medical conditions, you are on the right track. Jude —        Crouch Enterprises – Telecom, Internet & Unix Consulting      Oak Park, IL  708-848-0134  URL: http://www.pobox.com/~jcrouch

Response:

Diana, this seems odd talking to you here at the same time we are ICQ’ing  I don’t like your doctor or the staff. Is it possible to make a diagnosis without tests?  Tell me this isn’t so.  Once that weight goes girl, you will feel heaps better, trust me.  And you are not going to die, at least not for quite a while yet  And your doctor sounds very irresponsible laying stuff on you without a definite diagnosis.  I have only met 2 irresponsible doctors in my life and both told me that the tumours (two different times in my life) that they had just removed from my body were malignant, in both cases they were way wrong!  But not until I had lived a few weeks of hell thinking I was going to die and who was going to raise my kids!  Plus what sort of doctor’s staff yells at you??  If you can tell a person has a serious lung disease by listening to your chest then I am going to buy myself a medical degree off the net! Is there no other doctor in your area?  I know I sound angry, cause I am.  This kind of stupidity on a doctor’s part shouldn’t be condoned.  Now no more talk of dying, I won’t allow it Hugs and kisses Jan

Response:

Hi Jude Yea I understand. You better behave and not smoke anymore. I still have a date in May. I was just scared. I read on the net tonight that it can come from bronchitis and I have had that since I was two so I still am not going to accept it I am going to fight it. Like Adrian said when I lose my weight I too believe most of my health problems will either vanish or they will be so nil I won’t notice them. You are still my Angel and I love you. Do you know why I always say that? Well it is because a true friend will tell you like it is not matter what and another true friend will accept it with grace. I like to know the situation, no matter the consequence that way there is nothing hidden. So baby keep the truth coming. Your my kind of guy. Love Diana — Don’t Believe in Miracles…….Rely on Them – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone. I sure could use a group hug right now. I am not a smoker and never have been and never will be and tonight at the doctors office she lays the bomb on me that I have Emphysema. How can that be? I told her about my Diabetes family and she told me to keep doing what I have been with all of you because I have lost another 4 lbs just in the last two weeks making it a total of 13 for the month. But why care if I am going to die of emphysema now? Love Diana Let me explain this in the most common language.   Emphysema relates to the capacity of your lungs related to elasticity.  The best example I know is the relation to your underwear.  When the elastic wears out there is no "give" back.  The lungs rely on a process of inhaling, then dispersing the the toxins (mostly co2), and if it cannot stretch back, it doesn’t perform perfectly. What does this mean to you?  Your lungs are not performing to their maximum, there is a problem.  I know, I have it too.  You likely have less breath to do the things we do in normal life. Smoking can induce emphysema, but it is certainly not restricted to those that smoke.  I don’t know whether your weight could have something to do with it, but you are placing a very great burden on your entire bodily system.  You know I say these things non-judgmentally and with the most loving feelings. Several years ago, my lungs were judged as 84 years old.  I’ll have to have them retested, huh?  (I’m 50yo). Well, from what I know, emphasema reacts well to exercise, but I understand that the peopole who suffer from it have a tough time doing exercises.  But the more you can stress that lung tissue, the stronger it gets.  I wish there were easy answers, but there are not. I am sure you understand. All my love. Jude —        Crouch Enterprises – Telecom, Internet & Unix Consulting      Oak Park, IL  708-848-0134  URL: http://www.pobox.com/~jcrouch

Response:

Adrian you are just too sweet. I am scared because I lost my Mom 2.5 years ago from COPD and that is what my doctor said my diagnosis was tonight. She is pleased about everything else. I am on a decongestant for the next ten days to finish clearing up the sinus infection but I thought I only had Asthma and when she said Emphysema it really threw me. I say" die "not her because I watch my Momma suffer with it for only 3 years and then she was gone. I am 49 and I don’t want to die.

You won’t die, Diana.  You have too many people who love you. You all gave me hope and she destroyed that hope in just one night. I don’t go around smoking because it takes my breath away so bad and I even have no smoking signs on my house. I sure hope you are right because I am not going to stop losing the weight. I have already started to feel better with just the 13 lbs.

I can’t do anything except encourage you to lose the excess weight.  It will help *everything* that ails you.  13 pounds!  That’s great!  Besides, it means that you have not *gained* weight.  I know this is hard to understand, but that is really more important.  There are three states: gain weight, maintain weight, or lose weight.  For your medical conditions, you are on the right track. Jude —         Crouch Enterprises – Telecom, Internet & Unix Consulting       Oak Park, IL  708-848-0134  URL: http://www.pobox.com/~jcrouch

Response:

But why care if I am going to die of emphysema now?

Diana My grandfather liveed with emphysema for many years. This is not a death sentence. And you are losing weight. That will help. Honest. I’m sorry you’ve had another blow. It can be really depressing to have one thing after another happen to you. But you will go on and there’s no reason to expect you are going to die soon just because of emphysema. Hugs Carol

Response:

Hi everyone. I sure could use a group hug right now. I am not a smoker and never have been and never will be and tonight at the doctors office she lays the bomb on me that I have Emphysema. How can that be? I told her about my Diabetes family and she told me to keep doing what I have been with all of you because I have lost another 4 lbs just in the last two weeks making it a total of 13 for the month. But why care if I am going to die of emphysema now? Love Diana — Don’t Believe in Miracles…….Rely on Them

Response:

Hi everyone. I sure could use a group hug right now. I am not a smoker and never have

<<HUG!!! been and never will be and tonight at the doctors office she lays the bomb on me that I have Emphysema. How can that be? I told her about my Diabetes

Are you around smokers ? family and she told me to keep doing what I have been with all of you because I have lost another 4 lbs just in the last two weeks making it a total of 13 for the month. But why care if I am going to die of emphysema

13 lbs! That’s great! "Die"?  Now D, did *she* say "die" ? or did *you* say "die" ? I’ll bet as you continue to loose weight *all* of your health problems will diminish, emphysema included! now? Love Diana

-Adrian

Response:

Adrian you are just too sweet. I am scared because I lost my Mom 2.5 years ago from COPD and that is what my doctor said my diagnosis was tonight. She is pleased about everything else. I am on a decongestant for the next ten days to finish clearing up the sinus infection but I thought I only had Asthma and when she said Emphysema it really threw me. I say" die "not her because I watch my Momma suffer with it for only 3 years and then she was gone. I am 49 and I don’t want to die. You all gave me hope and she destroyed that hope in just one night. I don’t go around smoking because it takes my breath away so bad and I even have no smoking signs on my house. I sure hope you are right because I am not going to stop losing the weight. I have already started to feel better with just the 13 lbs. Thank you for so much for all that you do for me , you just don’t know how much it means to me to know that you care. Love Diana — Don’t Believe in Miracles…….Rely on Them – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone. I sure could use a group hug right now. I am not a smoker and never have <<HUG!!! been and never will be and tonight at the doctors office she lays the bomb on me that I have Emphysema. How can that be? I told her about my Diabetes Are you around smokers ? family and she told me to keep doing what I have been with all of you because I have lost another 4 lbs just in the last two weeks making it a total of 13 for the month. But why care if I am going to die of emphysema 13 lbs! That’s great! "Die"?  Now D, did *she* say "die" ? or did *you* say "die" ? I’ll bet as you continue to loose weight *all* of your health problems will diminish, emphysema included! now? Love Diana -Adrian

Response:

Hi everyone. I sure could use a group hug right now. I am not a smoker and never have been and never will be and tonight at the doctors office she lays the bomb on me that I have Emphysema. How can that be? I told her about my Diabetes family and she told me to keep doing what I have been with all of you because I have lost another 4 lbs just in the last two weeks making it a total of 13 for the month. But why care if I am going to die of emphysema now? Love Diana

Let me explain this in the most common language.   Emphysema relates to the capacity of your lungs related to elasticity.  The best example I know is the relation to your underwear.  When the elastic wears out there is no "give" back.  The lungs rely on a process of inhaling, then dispersing the the toxins (mostly co2), and if it cannot stretch back, it doesn’t perform perfectly. What does this mean to you?  Your lungs are not performing to their maximum, there is a problem.  I know, I have it too.  You likely have less breath to do the things we do in normal life. Smoking can induce emphysema, but it is certainly not restricted to those that smoke.  I don’t know whether your weight could have something to do with it, but you are placing a very great burden on your entire bodily system.  You know I say these things non-judgmentally and with the most loving feelings.   Several years ago, my lungs were judged as 84 years old.  I’ll have to have them retested, huh?  (I’m 50yo). Well, from what I know, emphasema reacts well to exercise, but I understand that the peopole who suffer from it have a tough time doing exercises.  But the more you can stress that lung tissue, the stronger it gets.  I wish there were easy answers, but there are not. I am sure you understand. All my love. Jude —         Crouch Enterprises – Telecom, Internet & Unix Consulting       Oak Park, IL  708-848-0134  URL: http://www.pobox.com/~jcrouch

Response:

hello sin sang gil tokai Univeresity japanese Literafure hiratsuka,Japan

Response:

PeaceOut, my brother. The views and opinions expressed here, are the views and opinions expressed here.               Those wishing to post flames are directed to bite down hard.

Response:

PeaceOut, my brother. The views and opinions expressed here, are the views and opinions expressed here.               Those wishing to post flames are directed to bite down hard.

          razorhead & others !                                                 looking for exchange hunt anywhere in U.S.or can. for a deer hunt in MI. CON:KEN—

Response:

Hi Sara, I like birds too! "Catch you on the flip side"  

Response:

Hi Sara! Welcome! Tell us about yourself and what pets you have. What kinds of birds do you like? I have mostly African Greys, one Amazon and a few smaller birds. — "Mamabird" I’m Out Of Estrogen …..  And I Have A Gun! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi, I like birds!

Response:

Sounds like this came from a child, (Yawn) is the way a bore would answer. joy

You go! I thought it was very rude way to acknowledge a newbie. BTW, hope you enjoy the NG. What kind of birds live with you? Cheers, Gwen

Response:

(YAWN) hi, I like birds!

Try waking up and welcoming a new person to the group. Your response to Sara was rude and inconsiderate. TA FAW

Response:

hi, I like birds!

Welcome to the NG.  Tell us about yourself and your companions (birds, cats dogs or whatever you have). Look forward to seeing you take an active place among the bird people here.  After all we all like birds (I hope) or we wouldn’t be here. TA FAW

Response:

Glad to have you here, Sara. If you have a bird, why not tell us him/her/them? We’re for the most part a friendly bunch! I have a Hahn’s macaw named (with outstanding ingenuity) Hanbird! Chuck hi, I like birds!

Response:

hi, I like birds!

Response:

(YAWN) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi, I like birds!

Response:

Hello Sara, Welcome to rec.pet.birds.  We all like birds too.  Do you have any birds at home? Tell us more about you and your pets, or the pets you would like to have. joy

Response:

Sounds like this came from a child, (Yawn) is the way a bore would answer. joy

Response:

(SNIPPED) Did I mention Adele is trying to say "hello" now? —  "If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the precipitate."

Response:

PARROT GUY….Its a shame your parents didnt have soap to wash out your feel sorry for you.  I will not be pulled into this game.      Teresa

Seems to me you jumped into "this game" voluntarily. —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

Response:

Anxiously awaiting the invite! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend has agreed to help me set up a very basic site that I can put up photos on- I am very excited! Hopefully next week I can invite you all to go take a look jess Me too! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson Yes, yes, yes!!!  Hurry… : ) Janet See my baby, Ruby, at… http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=920323&a=6711759 jessib wrote so anyone want to see a CTscan of a parrot head?   Pretty neat looking- after looking at everyone else’s great sites with photos of their birds- I want to put up some of mine- plus other interesting bird related things… jess

Response:

Me too! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, yes, yes!!!  Hurry… : ) Janet See my baby, Ruby, at… http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=920323&a=6711759 jessib wrote so anyone want to see a CTscan of a parrot head?   Pretty neat looking- after looking at everyone else’s great sites with photos of their birds- I want to put up some of mine- plus other interesting bird related things… jess

Response:

any one here have quaker parrots??????

Response:

I don’t but am considering getting a quaker, piounus (hope I spelled that right), or lovebird for my next bird.  I have a serious case of MBD any one here have quaker parrots??????

MarkW Broomfield, CO http://pages.prodigy.net/markw1

Response:

I have one! any one here have quaker parrots??????

– Kellie Final Portrait * A Novel by Kellie Sisson Snider Kass Arts Publicity  <http://kassarts.bizland.com

Response:

I have two.  Billie and Dexter. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – any one here have quaker parrots??????

Response:

I just wanted to say "Hi" to everybody here.  I usually hang out in rec.ponds, but I thought I would check this out, since I saw a post from here on rec.ponds relating to Goldfish.  Came over here and walked into a storm over evolution.  I posted about that even though I know in my heart there is no point in talking to people who have no interest in the truth, except as it serves their preconceived notions. Anyway, I do have some real reason to be here, since our family includes 3 dogs, a cat, a ferret, LOTS of fish 8 ponds and aquariums, AND Ringneck named Beggar (9 years old) and a Congo Gray named Shaba (1.5 years old).   All are currently healthy, seem to be well adjusted, and very tame.  Well, Hobo bites anybody but me, but I can do anything with him.  Shaba clearly prefers my wife, but puts up with me.  Beggar doesn’t play favorites. I think I’ll just hang around a while and see what you guys usually talk about. Bill 90% of life is just showing up. HTTP://www.freeholder.com     (our pond pics)  Also a pic of Hobo the Senegal on our picture page.

Response:

… I think I’ll just hang around a while and see what you guys usually talk about.

Bill!  Its good to see you over here!  I didn’t know you had all those birds and other critters!  My family is also overrun with four and two footed beasts… my birds are a budgie and a quaker.  Too hot to tend the pond right now, so, I’m tending birds instead! — Signed- Kellie  USDA zone 7/8, Sunset Zone 33 My Karma Ran Over My Dogma.  It was a Catastrophe. Now my Dogma’s Dead and my Karma’s out of alignment. Get in KNEE DEEP!  <http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/newsletter.html

Response:

Hi Sara, I like birds too! "Catch you on the flip side"  

Response:

Hi Sara! Welcome! Tell us about yourself and what pets you have. What kinds of birds do you like? I have mostly African Greys, one Amazon and a few smaller birds. — "Mamabird" I’m Out Of Estrogen …..  And I Have A Gun! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi, I like birds!

Response:

Sounds like this came from a child, (Yawn) is the way a bore would answer. joy

You go! I thought it was very rude way to acknowledge a newbie. BTW, hope you enjoy the NG. What kind of birds live with you? Cheers, Gwen

Response:

(YAWN) hi, I like birds!

Try waking up and welcoming a new person to the group. Your response to Sara was rude and inconsiderate. TA FAW

Response:

hi, I like birds!

Welcome to the NG.  Tell us about yourself and your companions (birds, cats dogs or whatever you have). Look forward to seeing you take an active place among the bird people here.  After all we all like birds (I hope) or we wouldn’t be here. TA FAW

Response:

Glad to have you here, Sara. If you have a bird, why not tell us him/her/them? We’re for the most part a friendly bunch! I have a Hahn’s macaw named (with outstanding ingenuity) Hanbird! Chuck hi, I like birds!

Response:

hi, I like birds!

Response:

(YAWN) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi, I like birds!

Response:

Hello Sara, Welcome to rec.pet.birds.  We all like birds too.  Do you have any birds at home? Tell us more about you and your pets, or the pets you would like to have. joy

Response:

Sounds like this came from a child, (Yawn) is the way a bore would answer. joy

Response:

(SNIPPED) Did I mention Adele is trying to say "hello" now? —  "If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the precipitate."

Response:

PARROT GUY….Its a shame your parents didnt have soap to wash out your feel sorry for you.  I will not be pulled into this game.      Teresa

Seems to me you jumped into "this game" voluntarily. —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

Response:

Anxiously awaiting the invite! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend has agreed to help me set up a very basic site that I can put up photos on- I am very excited! Hopefully next week I can invite you all to go take a look jess Me too! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson Yes, yes, yes!!!  Hurry… : ) Janet See my baby, Ruby, at… http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=920323&a=6711759 jessib wrote so anyone want to see a CTscan of a parrot head?   Pretty neat looking- after looking at everyone else’s great sites with photos of their birds- I want to put up some of mine- plus other interesting bird related things… jess

Response:

Me too! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, yes, yes!!!  Hurry… : ) Janet See my baby, Ruby, at… http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=920323&a=6711759 jessib wrote so anyone want to see a CTscan of a parrot head?   Pretty neat looking- after looking at everyone else’s great sites with photos of their birds- I want to put up some of mine- plus other interesting bird related things… jess

Response:

any one here have quaker parrots??????

Response:

I don’t but am considering getting a quaker, piounus (hope I spelled that right), or lovebird for my next bird.  I have a serious case of MBD any one here have quaker parrots??????

MarkW Broomfield, CO http://pages.prodigy.net/markw1

Response:

I have one! any one here have quaker parrots??????

– Kellie Final Portrait * A Novel by Kellie Sisson Snider Kass Arts Publicity  <http://kassarts.bizland.com

Response:

I have two.  Billie and Dexter. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – any one here have quaker parrots??????

Response:

I just wanted to say "Hi" to everybody here.  I usually hang out in rec.ponds, but I thought I would check this out, since I saw a post from here on rec.ponds relating to Goldfish.  Came over here and walked into a storm over evolution.  I posted about that even though I know in my heart there is no point in talking to people who have no interest in the truth, except as it serves their preconceived notions. Anyway, I do have some real reason to be here, since our family includes 3 dogs, a cat, a ferret, LOTS of fish 8 ponds and aquariums, AND Ringneck named Beggar (9 years old) and a Congo Gray named Shaba (1.5 years old).   All are currently healthy, seem to be well adjusted, and very tame.  Well, Hobo bites anybody but me, but I can do anything with him.  Shaba clearly prefers my wife, but puts up with me.  Beggar doesn’t play favorites. I think I’ll just hang around a while and see what you guys usually talk about. Bill 90% of life is just showing up. HTTP://www.freeholder.com     (our pond pics)  Also a pic of Hobo the Senegal on our picture page.

Response:

… I think I’ll just hang around a while and see what you guys usually talk about.

Bill!  Its good to see you over here!  I didn’t know you had all those birds and other critters!  My family is also overrun with four and two footed beasts… my birds are a budgie and a quaker.  Too hot to tend the pond right now, so, I’m tending birds instead! — Signed- Kellie  USDA zone 7/8, Sunset Zone 33 My Karma Ran Over My Dogma.  It was a Catastrophe. Now my Dogma’s Dead and my Karma’s out of alignment. Get in KNEE DEEP!  <http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/newsletter.html

Response:

Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

 do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

I assume you have to at least know how to spell legal

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work? Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

 do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

18 for intrastate (within state) 21 for interstate (country wide) —   KenCo Fish & Supplies ICQ # 1028648 ph/fax 401-781-9642   Shipping plants/fish a specialty.  Permalon pond liner dist.   Imported Koi,Goldfish,Tropicals,Piranhas,Stingrays etc.

Response:

Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start?

you will just about pay the bills,you need to be more diverse, thats only a 5-6 month a yr. buss.,you need a winter carry over. it would be simple if you had a lot of acreage free and clear to start off w/ to do the aquatic nursery and fish farm part then an initial investment to keep you going for 1-2 yrs until you break even (maybe). I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

you wont even make a weekly paycheck selling liners alone,thats a one time sale,selling accessories helps. —   KenCo Fish & Supplies ICQ # 1028648 ph/fax 401-781-9642   Shipping plants/fish a specialty.  Permalon pond liner dist.   Imported Koi,Goldfish,Tropicals,Piranhas,Stingrays etc.

Response:

This would be a great summer business for you.  Lots of young people have their own little businesses going to make money during the summer.  You seem to know a lot about ponds already.  I know around here I wouldn’t even buy a fish at some stores and it was very hard to find pond plants.  Water gardens are becoming very popular so this is a good time to get involved.  Get your plants and fish multiplying and there’s a good cash flow right there.  Print up some flyers and put them up on the bulletin boards at grocery stores or go door-to-door to deliver them.  Just don’t put them in peoples mail boxes cause thats government property I’m told!!!  And use the internet to get supplies people may want.  Prices here are a lot better then at our local stores so shop around and get an item/price list of things you plan to offer, get a deposit and order them (with help from your parents) adding a couple dollars for yourself.  Lots of people start off with little ponds and I’m sure you can handle installing small ponds for now.  Pictures are worth a thousand words so show off a picture or 2 in your flyer to get peoples interest.  I’ll help design a flyer if you want.  By the time you are of *legal* age you’ll already have made a name for yourself and a good jump start on your own business. I think all the legalities with age are more directed at child labor and laws to prevent abuse of underaged children being used by employers.  But I’ve seen many a young person start a business before the *legal* age (on TV) so somehow it can be done!!!  If you are really interested its worth looking into and would be a fun summer business since you still have the luxury to close business and get back to school – not having to worry what will carry you through the winter. I’m excited for you!!!  Hope you go for it!!!        })i({  Cindy  })i({   If you think the grass is  greener on the other side,         get fertilizer!!!               : )     Live, Love, Laugh!!! Don’t lose sight of lifes simple treasures, they cost nothing yet are priceless

Response:

I assume you have to at least know how to spell legal do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

No, you just want to ensure that when you want legal work done you get a _lawyer_ who can spell legal You might, though, need to know how to spell numerous latin plant names, even if you don’t actually deal in plants. I’ve always been an advocate of (1) working at what you love and (2) choosing a field that’s growing.  Where the two conflict, choose option (1), but in this case you can combine the two.  Go for it. I couldn’t tell you if you need to be a certain age where you are, but here (Canada) child labor laws apply to people hiring children, and they don’t (always) apply to minors in family businesses and never prevent you from running your own business. What does cause a problem, sometimes, is just the unwillingness of adults to deal with minors (especially where contracts are involved, as you’re not old enough to be a party to a legal contract). — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html

Response:

Hi Sara, I like birds too! "Catch you on the flip side"  

Response:

Hi Sara! Welcome! Tell us about yourself and what pets you have. What kinds of birds do you like? I have mostly African Greys, one Amazon and a few smaller birds. — "Mamabird" I’m Out Of Estrogen …..  And I Have A Gun! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi, I like birds!

Response:

Sounds like this came from a child, (Yawn) is the way a bore would answer. joy

You go! I thought it was very rude way to acknowledge a newbie. BTW, hope you enjoy the NG. What kind of birds live with you? Cheers, Gwen

Response:

(YAWN) hi, I like birds!

Try waking up and welcoming a new person to the group. Your response to Sara was rude and inconsiderate. TA FAW

Response:

hi, I like birds!

Welcome to the NG.  Tell us about yourself and your companions (birds, cats dogs or whatever you have). Look forward to seeing you take an active place among the bird people here.  After all we all like birds (I hope) or we wouldn’t be here. TA FAW

Response:

Glad to have you here, Sara. If you have a bird, why not tell us him/her/them? We’re for the most part a friendly bunch! I have a Hahn’s macaw named (with outstanding ingenuity) Hanbird! Chuck hi, I like birds!

Response:

hi, I like birds!

Response:

(YAWN) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi, I like birds!

Response:

Hello Sara, Welcome to rec.pet.birds.  We all like birds too.  Do you have any birds at home? Tell us more about you and your pets, or the pets you would like to have. joy

Response:

Sounds like this came from a child, (Yawn) is the way a bore would answer. joy

Response:

(SNIPPED) Did I mention Adele is trying to say "hello" now? —  "If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the precipitate."

Response:

PARROT GUY….Its a shame your parents didnt have soap to wash out your feel sorry for you.  I will not be pulled into this game.      Teresa

Seems to me you jumped into "this game" voluntarily. —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

Response:

Anxiously awaiting the invite! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend has agreed to help me set up a very basic site that I can put up photos on- I am very excited! Hopefully next week I can invite you all to go take a look jess Me too! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson Yes, yes, yes!!!  Hurry… : ) Janet See my baby, Ruby, at… http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=920323&a=6711759 jessib wrote so anyone want to see a CTscan of a parrot head?   Pretty neat looking- after looking at everyone else’s great sites with photos of their birds- I want to put up some of mine- plus other interesting bird related things… jess

Response:

Me too! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, yes, yes!!!  Hurry… : ) Janet See my baby, Ruby, at… http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=920323&a=6711759 jessib wrote so anyone want to see a CTscan of a parrot head?   Pretty neat looking- after looking at everyone else’s great sites with photos of their birds- I want to put up some of mine- plus other interesting bird related things… jess

Response:

any one here have quaker parrots??????

Response:

I don’t but am considering getting a quaker, piounus (hope I spelled that right), or lovebird for my next bird.  I have a serious case of MBD any one here have quaker parrots??????

MarkW Broomfield, CO http://pages.prodigy.net/markw1

Response:

I have one! any one here have quaker parrots??????

– Kellie Final Portrait * A Novel by Kellie Sisson Snider Kass Arts Publicity  <http://kassarts.bizland.com

Response:

I have two.  Billie and Dexter. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – any one here have quaker parrots??????

Response:

I just wanted to say "Hi" to everybody here.  I usually hang out in rec.ponds, but I thought I would check this out, since I saw a post from here on rec.ponds relating to Goldfish.  Came over here and walked into a storm over evolution.  I posted about that even though I know in my heart there is no point in talking to people who have no interest in the truth, except as it serves their preconceived notions. Anyway, I do have some real reason to be here, since our family includes 3 dogs, a cat, a ferret, LOTS of fish 8 ponds and aquariums, AND Ringneck named Beggar (9 years old) and a Congo Gray named Shaba (1.5 years old).   All are currently healthy, seem to be well adjusted, and very tame.  Well, Hobo bites anybody but me, but I can do anything with him.  Shaba clearly prefers my wife, but puts up with me.  Beggar doesn’t play favorites. I think I’ll just hang around a while and see what you guys usually talk about. Bill 90% of life is just showing up. HTTP://www.freeholder.com     (our pond pics)  Also a pic of Hobo the Senegal on our picture page.

Response:

… I think I’ll just hang around a while and see what you guys usually talk about.

Bill!  Its good to see you over here!  I didn’t know you had all those birds and other critters!  My family is also overrun with four and two footed beasts… my birds are a budgie and a quaker.  Too hot to tend the pond right now, so, I’m tending birds instead! — Signed- Kellie  USDA zone 7/8, Sunset Zone 33 My Karma Ran Over My Dogma.  It was a Catastrophe. Now my Dogma’s Dead and my Karma’s out of alignment. Get in KNEE DEEP!  <http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/newsletter.html

Response:

Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

 do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

I assume you have to at least know how to spell legal

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work? Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

 do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

18 for intrastate (within state) 21 for interstate (country wide) —   KenCo Fish & Supplies ICQ # 1028648 ph/fax 401-781-9642   Shipping plants/fish a specialty.  Permalon pond liner dist.   Imported Koi,Goldfish,Tropicals,Piranhas,Stingrays etc.

Response:

Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start?

you will just about pay the bills,you need to be more diverse, thats only a 5-6 month a yr. buss.,you need a winter carry over. it would be simple if you had a lot of acreage free and clear to start off w/ to do the aquatic nursery and fish farm part then an initial investment to keep you going for 1-2 yrs until you break even (maybe). I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

you wont even make a weekly paycheck selling liners alone,thats a one time sale,selling accessories helps. —   KenCo Fish & Supplies ICQ # 1028648 ph/fax 401-781-9642   Shipping plants/fish a specialty.  Permalon pond liner dist.   Imported Koi,Goldfish,Tropicals,Piranhas,Stingrays etc.

Response:

This would be a great summer business for you.  Lots of young people have their own little businesses going to make money during the summer.  You seem to know a lot about ponds already.  I know around here I wouldn’t even buy a fish at some stores and it was very hard to find pond plants.  Water gardens are becoming very popular so this is a good time to get involved.  Get your plants and fish multiplying and there’s a good cash flow right there.  Print up some flyers and put them up on the bulletin boards at grocery stores or go door-to-door to deliver them.  Just don’t put them in peoples mail boxes cause thats government property I’m told!!!  And use the internet to get supplies people may want.  Prices here are a lot better then at our local stores so shop around and get an item/price list of things you plan to offer, get a deposit and order them (with help from your parents) adding a couple dollars for yourself.  Lots of people start off with little ponds and I’m sure you can handle installing small ponds for now.  Pictures are worth a thousand words so show off a picture or 2 in your flyer to get peoples interest.  I’ll help design a flyer if you want.  By the time you are of *legal* age you’ll already have made a name for yourself and a good jump start on your own business. I think all the legalities with age are more directed at child labor and laws to prevent abuse of underaged children being used by employers.  But I’ve seen many a young person start a business before the *legal* age (on TV) so somehow it can be done!!!  If you are really interested its worth looking into and would be a fun summer business since you still have the luxury to close business and get back to school – not having to worry what will carry you through the winter. I’m excited for you!!!  Hope you go for it!!!        })i({  Cindy  })i({   If you think the grass is  greener on the other side,         get fertilizer!!!               : )     Live, Love, Laugh!!! Don’t lose sight of lifes simple treasures, they cost nothing yet are priceless

Response:

I assume you have to at least know how to spell legal do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

No, you just want to ensure that when you want legal work done you get a _lawyer_ who can spell legal You might, though, need to know how to spell numerous latin plant names, even if you don’t actually deal in plants. I’ve always been an advocate of (1) working at what you love and (2) choosing a field that’s growing.  Where the two conflict, choose option (1), but in this case you can combine the two.  Go for it. I couldn’t tell you if you need to be a certain age where you are, but here (Canada) child labor laws apply to people hiring children, and they don’t (always) apply to minors in family businesses and never prevent you from running your own business. What does cause a problem, sometimes, is just the unwillingness of adults to deal with minors (especially where contracts are involved, as you’re not old enough to be a party to a legal contract). — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html

Response:

Hi Sara, I like birds too! "Catch you on the flip side"  

Response:

Hi Sara! Welcome! Tell us about yourself and what pets you have. What kinds of birds do you like? I have mostly African Greys, one Amazon and a few smaller birds. — "Mamabird" I’m Out Of Estrogen …..  And I Have A Gun! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi, I like birds!

Response:

Sounds like this came from a child, (Yawn) is the way a bore would answer. joy

You go! I thought it was very rude way to acknowledge a newbie. BTW, hope you enjoy the NG. What kind of birds live with you? Cheers, Gwen

Response:

(YAWN) hi, I like birds!

Try waking up and welcoming a new person to the group. Your response to Sara was rude and inconsiderate. TA FAW

Response:

hi, I like birds!

Welcome to the NG.  Tell us about yourself and your companions (birds, cats dogs or whatever you have). Look forward to seeing you take an active place among the bird people here.  After all we all like birds (I hope) or we wouldn’t be here. TA FAW

Response:

Glad to have you here, Sara. If you have a bird, why not tell us him/her/them? We’re for the most part a friendly bunch! I have a Hahn’s macaw named (with outstanding ingenuity) Hanbird! Chuck hi, I like birds!

Response:

hi, I like birds!

Response:

(YAWN) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi, I like birds!

Response:

Hello Sara, Welcome to rec.pet.birds.  We all like birds too.  Do you have any birds at home? Tell us more about you and your pets, or the pets you would like to have. joy

Response:

Sounds like this came from a child, (Yawn) is the way a bore would answer. joy

Response:

(SNIPPED) Did I mention Adele is trying to say "hello" now? —  "If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the precipitate."

Response:

PARROT GUY….Its a shame your parents didnt have soap to wash out your feel sorry for you.  I will not be pulled into this game.      Teresa

Seems to me you jumped into "this game" voluntarily. —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

Response:

Anxiously awaiting the invite! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend has agreed to help me set up a very basic site that I can put up photos on- I am very excited! Hopefully next week I can invite you all to go take a look jess Me too! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson Yes, yes, yes!!!  Hurry… : ) Janet See my baby, Ruby, at… http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=920323&a=6711759 jessib wrote so anyone want to see a CTscan of a parrot head?   Pretty neat looking- after looking at everyone else’s great sites with photos of their birds- I want to put up some of mine- plus other interesting bird related things… jess

Response:

Me too! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, yes, yes!!!  Hurry… : ) Janet See my baby, Ruby, at… http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=920323&a=6711759 jessib wrote so anyone want to see a CTscan of a parrot head?   Pretty neat looking- after looking at everyone else’s great sites with photos of their birds- I want to put up some of mine- plus other interesting bird related things… jess

Response:

any one here have quaker parrots??????

Response:

I don’t but am considering getting a quaker, piounus (hope I spelled that right), or lovebird for my next bird.  I have a serious case of MBD any one here have quaker parrots??????

MarkW Broomfield, CO http://pages.prodigy.net/markw1

Response:

I have one! any one here have quaker parrots??????

– Kellie Final Portrait * A Novel by Kellie Sisson Snider Kass Arts Publicity  <http://kassarts.bizland.com

Response:

I have two.  Billie and Dexter. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – any one here have quaker parrots??????

Response:

I just wanted to say "Hi" to everybody here.  I usually hang out in rec.ponds, but I thought I would check this out, since I saw a post from here on rec.ponds relating to Goldfish.  Came over here and walked into a storm over evolution.  I posted about that even though I know in my heart there is no point in talking to people who have no interest in the truth, except as it serves their preconceived notions. Anyway, I do have some real reason to be here, since our family includes 3 dogs, a cat, a ferret, LOTS of fish 8 ponds and aquariums, AND Ringneck named Beggar (9 years old) and a Congo Gray named Shaba (1.5 years old).   All are currently healthy, seem to be well adjusted, and very tame.  Well, Hobo bites anybody but me, but I can do anything with him.  Shaba clearly prefers my wife, but puts up with me.  Beggar doesn’t play favorites. I think I’ll just hang around a while and see what you guys usually talk about. Bill 90% of life is just showing up. HTTP://www.freeholder.com     (our pond pics)  Also a pic of Hobo the Senegal on our picture page.

Response:

… I think I’ll just hang around a while and see what you guys usually talk about.

Bill!  Its good to see you over here!  I didn’t know you had all those birds and other critters!  My family is also overrun with four and two footed beasts… my birds are a budgie and a quaker.  Too hot to tend the pond right now, so, I’m tending birds instead! — Signed- Kellie  USDA zone 7/8, Sunset Zone 33 My Karma Ran Over My Dogma.  It was a Catastrophe. Now my Dogma’s Dead and my Karma’s out of alignment. Get in KNEE DEEP!  <http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/newsletter.html

Response:

Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

 do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

I assume you have to at least know how to spell legal

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work? Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

 do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

18 for intrastate (within state) 21 for interstate (country wide) —   KenCo Fish & Supplies ICQ # 1028648 ph/fax 401-781-9642   Shipping plants/fish a specialty.  Permalon pond liner dist.   Imported Koi,Goldfish,Tropicals,Piranhas,Stingrays etc.

Response:

Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start?

you will just about pay the bills,you need to be more diverse, thats only a 5-6 month a yr. buss.,you need a winter carry over. it would be simple if you had a lot of acreage free and clear to start off w/ to do the aquatic nursery and fish farm part then an initial investment to keep you going for 1-2 yrs until you break even (maybe). I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

you wont even make a weekly paycheck selling liners alone,thats a one time sale,selling accessories helps. —   KenCo Fish & Supplies ICQ # 1028648 ph/fax 401-781-9642   Shipping plants/fish a specialty.  Permalon pond liner dist.   Imported Koi,Goldfish,Tropicals,Piranhas,Stingrays etc.

Response:

This would be a great summer business for you.  Lots of young people have their own little businesses going to make money during the summer.  You seem to know a lot about ponds already.  I know around here I wouldn’t even buy a fish at some stores and it was very hard to find pond plants.  Water gardens are becoming very popular so this is a good time to get involved.  Get your plants and fish multiplying and there’s a good cash flow right there.  Print up some flyers and put them up on the bulletin boards at grocery stores or go door-to-door to deliver them.  Just don’t put them in peoples mail boxes cause thats government property I’m told!!!  And use the internet to get supplies people may want.  Prices here are a lot better then at our local stores so shop around and get an item/price list of things you plan to offer, get a deposit and order them (with help from your parents) adding a couple dollars for yourself.  Lots of people start off with little ponds and I’m sure you can handle installing small ponds for now.  Pictures are worth a thousand words so show off a picture or 2 in your flyer to get peoples interest.  I’ll help design a flyer if you want.  By the time you are of *legal* age you’ll already have made a name for yourself and a good jump start on your own business. I think all the legalities with age are more directed at child labor and laws to prevent abuse of underaged children being used by employers.  But I’ve seen many a young person start a business before the *legal* age (on TV) so somehow it can be done!!!  If you are really interested its worth looking into and would be a fun summer business since you still have the luxury to close business and get back to school – not having to worry what will carry you through the winter. I’m excited for you!!!  Hope you go for it!!!        })i({  Cindy  })i({   If you think the grass is  greener on the other side,         get fertilizer!!!               : )     Live, Love, Laugh!!! Don’t lose sight of lifes simple treasures, they cost nothing yet are priceless

Response:

I assume you have to at least know how to spell legal do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

No, you just want to ensure that when you want legal work done you get a _lawyer_ who can spell legal You might, though, need to know how to spell numerous latin plant names, even if you don’t actually deal in plants. I’ve always been an advocate of (1) working at what you love and (2) choosing a field that’s growing.  Where the two conflict, choose option (1), but in this case you can combine the two.  Go for it. I couldn’t tell you if you need to be a certain age where you are, but here (Canada) child labor laws apply to people hiring children, and they don’t (always) apply to minors in family businesses and never prevent you from running your own business. What does cause a problem, sometimes, is just the unwillingness of adults to deal with minors (especially where contracts are involved, as you’re not old enough to be a party to a legal contract). — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html

Response:

Hi Sara, I like birds too! "Catch you on the flip side"  

Response:

Hi Sara! Welcome! Tell us about yourself and what pets you have. What kinds of birds do you like? I have mostly African Greys, one Amazon and a few smaller birds. — "Mamabird" I’m Out Of Estrogen …..  And I Have A Gun! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi, I like birds!

Response:

Sounds like this came from a child, (Yawn) is the way a bore would answer. joy

You go! I thought it was very rude way to acknowledge a newbie. BTW, hope you enjoy the NG. What kind of birds live with you? Cheers, Gwen

Response:

(YAWN) hi, I like birds!

Try waking up and welcoming a new person to the group. Your response to Sara was rude and inconsiderate. TA FAW

Response:

hi, I like birds!

Welcome to the NG.  Tell us about yourself and your companions (birds, cats dogs or whatever you have). Look forward to seeing you take an active place among the bird people here.  After all we all like birds (I hope) or we wouldn’t be here. TA FAW

Response:

Glad to have you here, Sara. If you have a bird, why not tell us him/her/them? We’re for the most part a friendly bunch! I have a Hahn’s macaw named (with outstanding ingenuity) Hanbird! Chuck hi, I like birds!

Response:

hi, I like birds!

Response:

(YAWN) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi, I like birds!

Response:

Hello Sara, Welcome to rec.pet.birds.  We all like birds too.  Do you have any birds at home? Tell us more about you and your pets, or the pets you would like to have. joy

Response:

Sounds like this came from a child, (Yawn) is the way a bore would answer. joy

Response:

(SNIPPED) Did I mention Adele is trying to say "hello" now? —  "If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the precipitate."

Response:

PARROT GUY….Its a shame your parents didnt have soap to wash out your feel sorry for you.  I will not be pulled into this game.      Teresa

Seems to me you jumped into "this game" voluntarily. —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

Response:

Anxiously awaiting the invite! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend has agreed to help me set up a very basic site that I can put up photos on- I am very excited! Hopefully next week I can invite you all to go take a look jess Me too! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson Yes, yes, yes!!!  Hurry… : ) Janet See my baby, Ruby, at… http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=920323&a=6711759 jessib wrote so anyone want to see a CTscan of a parrot head?   Pretty neat looking- after looking at everyone else’s great sites with photos of their birds- I want to put up some of mine- plus other interesting bird related things… jess

Response:

Me too! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, yes, yes!!!  Hurry… : ) Janet See my baby, Ruby, at… http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=920323&a=6711759 jessib wrote so anyone want to see a CTscan of a parrot head?   Pretty neat looking- after looking at everyone else’s great sites with photos of their birds- I want to put up some of mine- plus other interesting bird related things… jess

Response:

any one here have quaker parrots??????

Response:

I don’t but am considering getting a quaker, piounus (hope I spelled that right), or lovebird for my next bird.  I have a serious case of MBD any one here have quaker parrots??????

MarkW Broomfield, CO http://pages.prodigy.net/markw1

Response:

I have one! any one here have quaker parrots??????

– Kellie Final Portrait * A Novel by Kellie Sisson Snider Kass Arts Publicity  <http://kassarts.bizland.com

Response:

I have two.  Billie and Dexter. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – any one here have quaker parrots??????

Response:

I just wanted to say "Hi" to everybody here.  I usually hang out in rec.ponds, but I thought I would check this out, since I saw a post from here on rec.ponds relating to Goldfish.  Came over here and walked into a storm over evolution.  I posted about that even though I know in my heart there is no point in talking to people who have no interest in the truth, except as it serves their preconceived notions. Anyway, I do have some real reason to be here, since our family includes 3 dogs, a cat, a ferret, LOTS of fish 8 ponds and aquariums, AND Ringneck named Beggar (9 years old) and a Congo Gray named Shaba (1.5 years old).   All are currently healthy, seem to be well adjusted, and very tame.  Well, Hobo bites anybody but me, but I can do anything with him.  Shaba clearly prefers my wife, but puts up with me.  Beggar doesn’t play favorites. I think I’ll just hang around a while and see what you guys usually talk about. Bill 90% of life is just showing up. HTTP://www.freeholder.com     (our pond pics)  Also a pic of Hobo the Senegal on our picture page.

Response:

… I think I’ll just hang around a while and see what you guys usually talk about.

Bill!  Its good to see you over here!  I didn’t know you had all those birds and other critters!  My family is also overrun with four and two footed beasts… my birds are a budgie and a quaker.  Too hot to tend the pond right now, so, I’m tending birds instead! — Signed- Kellie  USDA zone 7/8, Sunset Zone 33 My Karma Ran Over My Dogma.  It was a Catastrophe. Now my Dogma’s Dead and my Karma’s out of alignment. Get in KNEE DEEP!  <http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/newsletter.html

Response:

Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

 do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

I assume you have to at least know how to spell legal

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work? Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

 do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

18 for intrastate (within state) 21 for interstate (country wide) —   KenCo Fish & Supplies ICQ # 1028648 ph/fax 401-781-9642   Shipping plants/fish a specialty.  Permalon pond liner dist.   Imported Koi,Goldfish,Tropicals,Piranhas,Stingrays etc.

Response:

Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start?

you will just about pay the bills,you need to be more diverse, thats only a 5-6 month a yr. buss.,you need a winter carry over. it would be simple if you had a lot of acreage free and clear to start off w/ to do the aquatic nursery and fish farm part then an initial investment to keep you going for 1-2 yrs until you break even (maybe). I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

you wont even make a weekly paycheck selling liners alone,thats a one time sale,selling accessories helps. —   KenCo Fish & Supplies ICQ # 1028648 ph/fax 401-781-9642   Shipping plants/fish a specialty.  Permalon pond liner dist.   Imported Koi,Goldfish,Tropicals,Piranhas,Stingrays etc.

Response:

This would be a great summer business for you.  Lots of young people have their own little businesses going to make money during the summer.  You seem to know a lot about ponds already.  I know around here I wouldn’t even buy a fish at some stores and it was very hard to find pond plants.  Water gardens are becoming very popular so this is a good time to get involved.  Get your plants and fish multiplying and there’s a good cash flow right there.  Print up some flyers and put them up on the bulletin boards at grocery stores or go door-to-door to deliver them.  Just don’t put them in peoples mail boxes cause thats government property I’m told!!!  And use the internet to get supplies people may want.  Prices here are a lot better then at our local stores so shop around and get an item/price list of things you plan to offer, get a deposit and order them (with help from your parents) adding a couple dollars for yourself.  Lots of people start off with little ponds and I’m sure you can handle installing small ponds for now.  Pictures are worth a thousand words so show off a picture or 2 in your flyer to get peoples interest.  I’ll help design a flyer if you want.  By the time you are of *legal* age you’ll already have made a name for yourself and a good jump start on your own business. I think all the legalities with age are more directed at child labor and laws to prevent abuse of underaged children being used by employers.  But I’ve seen many a young person start a business before the *legal* age (on TV) so somehow it can be done!!!  If you are really interested its worth looking into and would be a fun summer business since you still have the luxury to close business and get back to school – not having to worry what will carry you through the winter. I’m excited for you!!!  Hope you go for it!!!        })i({  Cindy  })i({   If you think the grass is  greener on the other side,         get fertilizer!!!               : )     Live, Love, Laugh!!! Don’t lose sight of lifes simple treasures, they cost nothing yet are priceless

Response:

I assume you have to at least know how to spell legal do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

No, you just want to ensure that when you want legal work done you get a _lawyer_ who can spell legal You might, though, need to know how to spell numerous latin plant names, even if you don’t actually deal in plants. I’ve always been an advocate of (1) working at what you love and (2) choosing a field that’s growing.  Where the two conflict, choose option (1), but in this case you can combine the two.  Go for it. I couldn’t tell you if you need to be a certain age where you are, but here (Canada) child labor laws apply to people hiring children, and they don’t (always) apply to minors in family businesses and never prevent you from running your own business. What does cause a problem, sometimes, is just the unwillingness of adults to deal with minors (especially where contracts are involved, as you’re not old enough to be a party to a legal contract). — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html

Response:

Hi Sara, I like birds too! "Catch you on the flip side"  

Response:

Hi Sara! Welcome! Tell us about yourself and what pets you have. What kinds of birds do you like? I have mostly African Greys, one Amazon and a few smaller birds. — "Mamabird" I’m Out Of Estrogen …..  And I Have A Gun! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi, I like birds!

Response:

Sounds like this came from a child, (Yawn) is the way a bore would answer. joy

You go! I thought it was very rude way to acknowledge a newbie. BTW, hope you enjoy the NG. What kind of birds live with you? Cheers, Gwen

Response:

(YAWN) hi, I like birds!

Try waking up and welcoming a new person to the group. Your response to Sara was rude and inconsiderate. TA FAW

Response:

hi, I like birds!

Welcome to the NG.  Tell us about yourself and your companions (birds, cats dogs or whatever you have). Look forward to seeing you take an active place among the bird people here.  After all we all like birds (I hope) or we wouldn’t be here. TA FAW

Response:

Glad to have you here, Sara. If you have a bird, why not tell us him/her/them? We’re for the most part a friendly bunch! I have a Hahn’s macaw named (with outstanding ingenuity) Hanbird! Chuck hi, I like birds!

Response:

hi, I like birds!

Response:

(YAWN) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi, I like birds!

Response:

Hello Sara, Welcome to rec.pet.birds.  We all like birds too.  Do you have any birds at home? Tell us more about you and your pets, or the pets you would like to have. joy

Response:

Sounds like this came from a child, (Yawn) is the way a bore would answer. joy

Response:

(SNIPPED) Did I mention Adele is trying to say "hello" now? —  "If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the precipitate."

Response:

PARROT GUY….Its a shame your parents didnt have soap to wash out your feel sorry for you.  I will not be pulled into this game.      Teresa

Seems to me you jumped into "this game" voluntarily. —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

Response:

Anxiously awaiting the invite! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend has agreed to help me set up a very basic site that I can put up photos on- I am very excited! Hopefully next week I can invite you all to go take a look jess Me too! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson Yes, yes, yes!!!  Hurry… : ) Janet See my baby, Ruby, at… http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=920323&a=6711759 jessib wrote so anyone want to see a CTscan of a parrot head?   Pretty neat looking- after looking at everyone else’s great sites with photos of their birds- I want to put up some of mine- plus other interesting bird related things… jess

Response:

Me too! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, yes, yes!!!  Hurry… : ) Janet See my baby, Ruby, at… http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=920323&a=6711759 jessib wrote so anyone want to see a CTscan of a parrot head?   Pretty neat looking- after looking at everyone else’s great sites with photos of their birds- I want to put up some of mine- plus other interesting bird related things… jess

Response:

any one here have quaker parrots??????

Response:

I don’t but am considering getting a quaker, piounus (hope I spelled that right), or lovebird for my next bird.  I have a serious case of MBD any one here have quaker parrots??????

MarkW Broomfield, CO http://pages.prodigy.net/markw1

Response:

I have one! any one here have quaker parrots??????

– Kellie Final Portrait * A Novel by Kellie Sisson Snider Kass Arts Publicity  <http://kassarts.bizland.com

Response:

I have two.  Billie and Dexter. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – any one here have quaker parrots??????

Response:

I just wanted to say "Hi" to everybody here.  I usually hang out in rec.ponds, but I thought I would check this out, since I saw a post from here on rec.ponds relating to Goldfish.  Came over here and walked into a storm over evolution.  I posted about that even though I know in my heart there is no point in talking to people who have no interest in the truth, except as it serves their preconceived notions. Anyway, I do have some real reason to be here, since our family includes 3 dogs, a cat, a ferret, LOTS of fish 8 ponds and aquariums, AND Ringneck named Beggar (9 years old) and a Congo Gray named Shaba (1.5 years old).   All are currently healthy, seem to be well adjusted, and very tame.  Well, Hobo bites anybody but me, but I can do anything with him.  Shaba clearly prefers my wife, but puts up with me.  Beggar doesn’t play favorites. I think I’ll just hang around a while and see what you guys usually talk about. Bill 90% of life is just showing up. HTTP://www.freeholder.com     (our pond pics)  Also a pic of Hobo the Senegal on our picture page.

Response:

… I think I’ll just hang around a while and see what you guys usually talk about.

Bill!  Its good to see you over here!  I didn’t know you had all those birds and other critters!  My family is also overrun with four and two footed beasts… my birds are a budgie and a quaker.  Too hot to tend the pond right now, so, I’m tending birds instead! — Signed- Kellie  USDA zone 7/8, Sunset Zone 33 My Karma Ran Over My Dogma.  It was a Catastrophe. Now my Dogma’s Dead and my Karma’s out of alignment. Get in KNEE DEEP!  <http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/newsletter.html

Response:

Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

 do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

I assume you have to at least know how to spell legal

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work? Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

 do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

18 for intrastate (within state) 21 for interstate (country wide) —   KenCo Fish & Supplies ICQ # 1028648 ph/fax 401-781-9642   Shipping plants/fish a specialty.  Permalon pond liner dist.   Imported Koi,Goldfish,Tropicals,Piranhas,Stingrays etc.

Response:

Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start?

you will just about pay the bills,you need to be more diverse, thats only a 5-6 month a yr. buss.,you need a winter carry over. it would be simple if you had a lot of acreage free and clear to start off w/ to do the aquatic nursery and fish farm part then an initial investment to keep you going for 1-2 yrs until you break even (maybe). I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

you wont even make a weekly paycheck selling liners alone,thats a one time sale,selling accessories helps. —   KenCo Fish & Supplies ICQ # 1028648 ph/fax 401-781-9642   Shipping plants/fish a specialty.  Permalon pond liner dist.   Imported Koi,Goldfish,Tropicals,Piranhas,Stingrays etc.

Response:

This would be a great summer business for you.  Lots of young people have their own little businesses going to make money during the summer.  You seem to know a lot about ponds already.  I know around here I wouldn’t even buy a fish at some stores and it was very hard to find pond plants.  Water gardens are becoming very popular so this is a good time to get involved.  Get your plants and fish multiplying and there’s a good cash flow right there.  Print up some flyers and put them up on the bulletin boards at grocery stores or go door-to-door to deliver them.  Just don’t put them in peoples mail boxes cause thats government property I’m told!!!  And use the internet to get supplies people may want.  Prices here are a lot better then at our local stores so shop around and get an item/price list of things you plan to offer, get a deposit and order them (with help from your parents) adding a couple dollars for yourself.  Lots of people start off with little ponds and I’m sure you can handle installing small ponds for now.  Pictures are worth a thousand words so show off a picture or 2 in your flyer to get peoples interest.  I’ll help design a flyer if you want.  By the time you are of *legal* age you’ll already have made a name for yourself and a good jump start on your own business. I think all the legalities with age are more directed at child labor and laws to prevent abuse of underaged children being used by employers.  But I’ve seen many a young person start a business before the *legal* age (on TV) so somehow it can be done!!!  If you are really interested its worth looking into and would be a fun summer business since you still have the luxury to close business and get back to school – not having to worry what will carry you through the winter. I’m excited for you!!!  Hope you go for it!!!        })i({  Cindy  })i({   If you think the grass is  greener on the other side,         get fertilizer!!!               : )     Live, Love, Laugh!!! Don’t lose sight of lifes simple treasures, they cost nothing yet are priceless

Response:

I assume you have to at least know how to spell legal do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

No, you just want to ensure that when you want legal work done you get a _lawyer_ who can spell legal You might, though, need to know how to spell numerous latin plant names, even if you don’t actually deal in plants. I’ve always been an advocate of (1) working at what you love and (2) choosing a field that’s growing.  Where the two conflict, choose option (1), but in this case you can combine the two.  Go for it. I couldn’t tell you if you need to be a certain age where you are, but here (Canada) child labor laws apply to people hiring children, and they don’t (always) apply to minors in family businesses and never prevent you from running your own business. What does cause a problem, sometimes, is just the unwillingness of adults to deal with minors (especially where contracts are involved, as you’re not old enough to be a party to a legal contract). — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html

Response:

Hi Sara, I like birds too! "Catch you on the flip side"  

Response:

Hi Sara! Welcome! Tell us about yourself and what pets you have. What kinds of birds do you like? I have mostly African Greys, one Amazon and a few smaller birds. — "Mamabird" I’m Out Of Estrogen …..  And I Have A Gun! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi, I like birds!

Response:

Sounds like this came from a child, (Yawn) is the way a bore would answer. joy

You go! I thought it was very rude way to acknowledge a newbie. BTW, hope you enjoy the NG. What kind of birds live with you? Cheers, Gwen

Response:

(YAWN) hi, I like birds!

Try waking up and welcoming a new person to the group. Your response to Sara was rude and inconsiderate. TA FAW

Response:

hi, I like birds!

Welcome to the NG.  Tell us about yourself and your companions (birds, cats dogs or whatever you have). Look forward to seeing you take an active place among the bird people here.  After all we all like birds (I hope) or we wouldn’t be here. TA FAW

Response:

Glad to have you here, Sara. If you have a bird, why not tell us him/her/them? We’re for the most part a friendly bunch! I have a Hahn’s macaw named (with outstanding ingenuity) Hanbird! Chuck hi, I like birds!

Response:

hi, I like birds!

Response:

(YAWN) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi, I like birds!

Response:

Hello Sara, Welcome to rec.pet.birds.  We all like birds too.  Do you have any birds at home? Tell us more about you and your pets, or the pets you would like to have. joy

Response:

Sounds like this came from a child, (Yawn) is the way a bore would answer. joy

Response:

(SNIPPED) Did I mention Adele is trying to say "hello" now? —  "If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the precipitate."

Response:

PARROT GUY….Its a shame your parents didnt have soap to wash out your feel sorry for you.  I will not be pulled into this game.      Teresa

Seems to me you jumped into "this game" voluntarily. —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

Response:

Anxiously awaiting the invite! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend has agreed to help me set up a very basic site that I can put up photos on- I am very excited! Hopefully next week I can invite you all to go take a look jess Me too! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson Yes, yes, yes!!!  Hurry… : ) Janet See my baby, Ruby, at… http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=920323&a=6711759 jessib wrote so anyone want to see a CTscan of a parrot head?   Pretty neat looking- after looking at everyone else’s great sites with photos of their birds- I want to put up some of mine- plus other interesting bird related things… jess

Response:

Me too! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, yes, yes!!!  Hurry… : ) Janet See my baby, Ruby, at… http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=920323&a=6711759 jessib wrote so anyone want to see a CTscan of a parrot head?   Pretty neat looking- after looking at everyone else’s great sites with photos of their birds- I want to put up some of mine- plus other interesting bird related things… jess

Response:

any one here have quaker parrots??????

Response:

I don’t but am considering getting a quaker, piounus (hope I spelled that right), or lovebird for my next bird.  I have a serious case of MBD any one here have quaker parrots??????

MarkW Broomfield, CO http://pages.prodigy.net/markw1

Response:

I have one! any one here have quaker parrots??????

– Kellie Final Portrait * A Novel by Kellie Sisson Snider Kass Arts Publicity  <http://kassarts.bizland.com

Response:

I have two.  Billie and Dexter. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – any one here have quaker parrots??????

Response:

I just wanted to say "Hi" to everybody here.  I usually hang out in rec.ponds, but I thought I would check this out, since I saw a post from here on rec.ponds relating to Goldfish.  Came over here and walked into a storm over evolution.  I posted about that even though I know in my heart there is no point in talking to people who have no interest in the truth, except as it serves their preconceived notions. Anyway, I do have some real reason to be here, since our family includes 3 dogs, a cat, a ferret, LOTS of fish 8 ponds and aquariums, AND Ringneck named Beggar (9 years old) and a Congo Gray named Shaba (1.5 years old).   All are currently healthy, seem to be well adjusted, and very tame.  Well, Hobo bites anybody but me, but I can do anything with him.  Shaba clearly prefers my wife, but puts up with me.  Beggar doesn’t play favorites. I think I’ll just hang around a while and see what you guys usually talk about. Bill 90% of life is just showing up. HTTP://www.freeholder.com     (our pond pics)  Also a pic of Hobo the Senegal on our picture page.

Response:

… I think I’ll just hang around a while and see what you guys usually talk about.

Bill!  Its good to see you over here!  I didn’t know you had all those birds and other critters!  My family is also overrun with four and two footed beasts… my birds are a budgie and a quaker.  Too hot to tend the pond right now, so, I’m tending birds instead! — Signed- Kellie  USDA zone 7/8, Sunset Zone 33 My Karma Ran Over My Dogma.  It was a Catastrophe. Now my Dogma’s Dead and my Karma’s out of alignment. Get in KNEE DEEP!  <http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/newsletter.html

Response:

Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

 do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

I assume you have to at least know how to spell legal

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work? Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

 do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

18 for intrastate (within state) 21 for interstate (country wide) —   KenCo Fish & Supplies ICQ # 1028648 ph/fax 401-781-9642   Shipping plants/fish a specialty.  Permalon pond liner dist.   Imported Koi,Goldfish,Tropicals,Piranhas,Stingrays etc.

Response:

Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start?

you will just about pay the bills,you need to be more diverse, thats only a 5-6 month a yr. buss.,you need a winter carry over. it would be simple if you had a lot of acreage free and clear to start off w/ to do the aquatic nursery and fish farm part then an initial investment to keep you going for 1-2 yrs until you break even (maybe). I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

you wont even make a weekly paycheck selling liners alone,thats a one time sale,selling accessories helps. —   KenCo Fish & Supplies ICQ # 1028648 ph/fax 401-781-9642   Shipping plants/fish a specialty.  Permalon pond liner dist.   Imported Koi,Goldfish,Tropicals,Piranhas,Stingrays etc.

Response:

This would be a great summer business for you.  Lots of young people have their own little businesses going to make money during the summer.  You seem to know a lot about ponds already.  I know around here I wouldn’t even buy a fish at some stores and it was very hard to find pond plants.  Water gardens are becoming very popular so this is a good time to get involved.  Get your plants and fish multiplying and there’s a good cash flow right there.  Print up some flyers and put them up on the bulletin boards at grocery stores or go door-to-door to deliver them.  Just don’t put them in peoples mail boxes cause thats government property I’m told!!!  And use the internet to get supplies people may want.  Prices here are a lot better then at our local stores so shop around and get an item/price list of things you plan to offer, get a deposit and order them (with help from your parents) adding a couple dollars for yourself.  Lots of people start off with little ponds and I’m sure you can handle installing small ponds for now.  Pictures are worth a thousand words so show off a picture or 2 in your flyer to get peoples interest.  I’ll help design a flyer if you want.  By the time you are of *legal* age you’ll already have made a name for yourself and a good jump start on your own business. I think all the legalities with age are more directed at child labor and laws to prevent abuse of underaged children being used by employers.  But I’ve seen many a young person start a business before the *legal* age (on TV) so somehow it can be done!!!  If you are really interested its worth looking into and would be a fun summer business since you still have the luxury to close business and get back to school – not having to worry what will carry you through the winter. I’m excited for you!!!  Hope you go for it!!!        })i({  Cindy  })i({   If you think the grass is  greener on the other side,         get fertilizer!!!               : )     Live, Love, Laugh!!! Don’t lose sight of lifes simple treasures, they cost nothing yet are priceless

Response:

I assume you have to at least know how to spell legal do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

No, you just want to ensure that when you want legal work done you get a _lawyer_ who can spell legal You might, though, need to know how to spell numerous latin plant names, even if you don’t actually deal in plants. I’ve always been an advocate of (1) working at what you love and (2) choosing a field that’s growing.  Where the two conflict, choose option (1), but in this case you can combine the two.  Go for it. I couldn’t tell you if you need to be a certain age where you are, but here (Canada) child labor laws apply to people hiring children, and they don’t (always) apply to minors in family businesses and never prevent you from running your own business. What does cause a problem, sometimes, is just the unwillingness of adults to deal with minors (especially where contracts are involved, as you’re not old enough to be a party to a legal contract). — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html

Response:

Hi Sara, I like birds too! "Catch you on the flip side"  

Response:

Hi Sara! Welcome! Tell us about yourself and what pets you have. What kinds of birds do you like? I have mostly African Greys, one Amazon and a few smaller birds. — "Mamabird" I’m Out Of Estrogen …..  And I Have A Gun! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi, I like birds!

Response:

Sounds like this came from a child, (Yawn) is the way a bore would answer. joy

You go! I thought it was very rude way to acknowledge a newbie. BTW, hope you enjoy the NG. What kind of birds live with you? Cheers, Gwen

Response:

(YAWN) hi, I like birds!

Try waking up and welcoming a new person to the group. Your response to Sara was rude and inconsiderate. TA FAW

Response:

hi, I like birds!

Welcome to the NG.  Tell us about yourself and your companions (birds, cats dogs or whatever you have). Look forward to seeing you take an active place among the bird people here.  After all we all like birds (I hope) or we wouldn’t be here. TA FAW

Response:

Glad to have you here, Sara. If you have a bird, why not tell us him/her/them? We’re for the most part a friendly bunch! I have a Hahn’s macaw named (with outstanding ingenuity) Hanbird! Chuck hi, I like birds!

Response:

hi, I like birds!

Response:

(YAWN) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi, I like birds!

Response:

Hello Sara, Welcome to rec.pet.birds.  We all like birds too.  Do you have any birds at home? Tell us more about you and your pets, or the pets you would like to have. joy

Response:

Sounds like this came from a child, (Yawn) is the way a bore would answer. joy

Response:

(SNIPPED) Did I mention Adele is trying to say "hello" now? —  "If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the precipitate."

Response:

PARROT GUY….Its a shame your parents didnt have soap to wash out your feel sorry for you.  I will not be pulled into this game.      Teresa

Seems to me you jumped into "this game" voluntarily. —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

Response:

Anxiously awaiting the invite! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend has agreed to help me set up a very basic site that I can put up photos on- I am very excited! Hopefully next week I can invite you all to go take a look jess Me too! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson Yes, yes, yes!!!  Hurry… : ) Janet See my baby, Ruby, at… http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=920323&a=6711759 jessib wrote so anyone want to see a CTscan of a parrot head?   Pretty neat looking- after looking at everyone else’s great sites with photos of their birds- I want to put up some of mine- plus other interesting bird related things… jess

Response:

Me too! —    Mama ~^~^~^~   Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/ And My Photo Album at: <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=442768                To email reply: change nest to net "How great the reverence I feel when a small bird accepts me as a friend." Helen Thomson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, yes, yes!!!  Hurry… : ) Janet See my baby, Ruby, at… http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=920323&a=6711759 jessib wrote so anyone want to see a CTscan of a parrot head?   Pretty neat looking- after looking at everyone else’s great sites with photos of their birds- I want to put up some of mine- plus other interesting bird related things… jess

Response:

any one here have quaker parrots??????

Response:

I don’t but am considering getting a quaker, piounus (hope I spelled that right), or lovebird for my next bird.  I have a serious case of MBD any one here have quaker parrots??????

MarkW Broomfield, CO http://pages.prodigy.net/markw1

Response:

I have one! any one here have quaker parrots??????

– Kellie Final Portrait * A Novel by Kellie Sisson Snider Kass Arts Publicity  <http://kassarts.bizland.com

Response:

I have two.  Billie and Dexter. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – any one here have quaker parrots??????

Response:

I just wanted to say "Hi" to everybody here.  I usually hang out in rec.ponds, but I thought I would check this out, since I saw a post from here on rec.ponds relating to Goldfish.  Came over here and walked into a storm over evolution.  I posted about that even though I know in my heart there is no point in talking to people who have no interest in the truth, except as it serves their preconceived notions. Anyway, I do have some real reason to be here, since our family includes 3 dogs, a cat, a ferret, LOTS of fish 8 ponds and aquariums, AND Ringneck named Beggar (9 years old) and a Congo Gray named Shaba (1.5 years old).   All are currently healthy, seem to be well adjusted, and very tame.  Well, Hobo bites anybody but me, but I can do anything with him.  Shaba clearly prefers my wife, but puts up with me.  Beggar doesn’t play favorites. I think I’ll just hang around a while and see what you guys usually talk about. Bill 90% of life is just showing up. HTTP://www.freeholder.com     (our pond pics)  Also a pic of Hobo the Senegal on our picture page.

Response:

… I think I’ll just hang around a while and see what you guys usually talk about.

Bill!  Its good to see you over here!  I didn’t know you had all those birds and other critters!  My family is also overrun with four and two footed beasts… my birds are a budgie and a quaker.  Too hot to tend the pond right now, so, I’m tending birds instead! — Signed- Kellie  USDA zone 7/8, Sunset Zone 33 My Karma Ran Over My Dogma.  It was a Catastrophe. Now my Dogma’s Dead and my Karma’s out of alignment. Get in KNEE DEEP!  <http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/newsletter.html

Response:

Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

 do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

I assume you have to at least know how to spell legal

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work? Jacob,    I think you are a natural. Pond installations is a great way to learn and make some money at the same time. With the enthusiasm you and your brother have, you’ll do very well.   Check out your local nurseries and/or call a local installer and tell them you want to build ponds. This time of year, someone is bound to need help. Watch them and learn why they are (or aren’t) successful. Knowing the right way to build a pond is the first step, but finding out what customers want and expect is even more important. Mike G. www.ponds2go.com Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start? I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

Response:

 do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

18 for intrastate (within state) 21 for interstate (country wide) —   KenCo Fish & Supplies ICQ # 1028648 ph/fax 401-781-9642   Shipping plants/fish a specialty.  Permalon pond liner dist.   Imported Koi,Goldfish,Tropicals,Piranhas,Stingrays etc.

Response:

Hello, I have a enquire question for all you pond entrepreneur’s. I would like to start a pond oriented business that may involve aquatic nursery, fish farm, hardware and supplies and installation. How would you recommend that I get a start?

you will just about pay the bills,you need to be more diverse, thats only a 5-6 month a yr. buss.,you need a winter carry over. it would be simple if you had a lot of acreage free and clear to start off w/ to do the aquatic nursery and fish farm part then an initial investment to keep you going for 1-2 yrs until you break even (maybe). I know some of you just deal in the liner, could I do that?

you wont even make a weekly paycheck selling liners alone,thats a one time sale,selling accessories helps. —   KenCo Fish & Supplies ICQ # 1028648 ph/fax 401-781-9642   Shipping plants/fish a specialty.  Permalon pond liner dist.   Imported Koi,Goldfish,Tropicals,Piranhas,Stingrays etc.

Response:

This would be a great summer business for you.  Lots of young people have their own little businesses going to make money during the summer.  You seem to know a lot about ponds already.  I know around here I wouldn’t even buy a fish at some stores and it was very hard to find pond plants.  Water gardens are becoming very popular so this is a good time to get involved.  Get your plants and fish multiplying and there’s a good cash flow right there.  Print up some flyers and put them up on the bulletin boards at grocery stores or go door-to-door to deliver them.  Just don’t put them in peoples mail boxes cause thats government property I’m told!!!  And use the internet to get supplies people may want.  Prices here are a lot better then at our local stores so shop around and get an item/price list of things you plan to offer, get a deposit and order them (with help from your parents) adding a couple dollars for yourself.  Lots of people start off with little ponds and I’m sure you can handle installing small ponds for now.  Pictures are worth a thousand words so show off a picture or 2 in your flyer to get peoples interest.  I’ll help design a flyer if you want.  By the time you are of *legal* age you’ll already have made a name for yourself and a good jump start on your own business. I think all the legalities with age are more directed at child labor and laws to prevent abuse of underaged children being used by employers.  But I’ve seen many a young person start a business before the *legal* age (on TV) so somehow it can be done!!!  If you are really interested its worth looking into and would be a fun summer business since you still have the luxury to close business and get back to school – not having to worry what will carry you through the winter. I’m excited for you!!!  Hope you go for it!!!        })i({  Cindy  })i({   If you think the grass is  greener on the other side,         get fertilizer!!!               : )     Live, Love, Laugh!!! Don’t lose sight of lifes simple treasures, they cost nothing yet are priceless

Response:

I assume you have to at least know how to spell legal do you have to be certain age to be llega for such work?

No, you just want to ensure that when you want legal work done you get a _lawyer_ who can spell legal You might, though, need to know how to spell numerous latin plant names, even if you don’t actually deal in plants. I’ve always been an advocate of (1) working at what you love and (2) choosing a field that’s growing.  Where the two conflict, choose option (1), but in this case you can combine the two.  Go for it. I couldn’t tell you if you need to be a certain age where you are, but here (Canada) child labor laws apply to people hiring children, and they don’t (always) apply to minors in family businesses and never prevent you from running your own business. What does cause a problem, sometimes, is just the unwillingness of adults to deal with minors (especially where contracts are involved, as you’re not old enough to be a party to a legal contract). — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html

Response:

I am new here and wondered if ya’ll might be willing to give me some advice on our family adopting a new kitten. We have a cat now, who is almost 3 yrs old, spayed and declawed. I have never had 2 cats together.

I’m sure you will enjoy watching them play when they get to know each other.  One of my most enjoyable moments of the day is when I get to watch Pandora and Mickey play wrestle.  They are so funny, and they enjoy and entertain each other so much.  Chick just watches them mostly, but plays once in a while. Yesterday we went to the shelter to choose a homeless kitten, and fell in love with one, with 7 toes on the front paws and 6 toes on back feet. Small, female, maybe 6 months old that had been turned in. We are to bring her home Monday. My questions are: How do I introduce the kittens food bowls, or do I switch over to kitten food and use the existing bowl? ( Our cat eats the Science diet dry food)

I’d feed them separately since the kitten will need kitten food. Will 2 females get along?

Sure.  I have 2 females and one male.  Mickey (the male) seems to think he has his own harem.  :)  The girls get along fine.  Chick will bop Pandy sometimes, but she never hits hard or extends her claws. Do I start her with her own litter box, or will they share the one we have? ( I felt that maybe using a cardboard flat, next to the existing box for a week or so, might teach her to use that area, is that right?)

Like others have said, it’s a good idea to keep them separated at first.  A small bathroom will make a good home for the new kitten until he gets used to his new surroundings. The cats can sniff each other under the door.  Another good trick to use after a few days is to put the kitten in the carrier and put him right next to you while you watch TV or relax around the house.  Then your older cat can come up to the carrier and sniff and see the little kitten without danger of any fights. So, you’ll need a separate litter box anyway.  When you let the two cats be together all the time, it’s a good idea to have one box for each cat. What may happen with the older cat being declawed, and the new one not declawed? ( aside from my furniture being scratched )

I don’t think it will matter.  The clawed cat won’t know the other one doesn’t have claws.  You can easily train the new kitten not to scratch your furniture.  Supply lots of good scratching surfaces and entice the kitten to use them by playing on or near the posts. Both of these cats will stay indoors at all times. We can’t wait to bring home our new little kitten, and will be taking our cat to the vet for updated records and bring in the new one for a physical. The animal shelter will then take her back for the spaying, and she will then be home.

It’s a good idea to have the kitten tested for Feline Leukemia before you let him interact with your current kitty.  Sometimes these tests can show false positives, tho.  So don’t panic if one test shows up positive.  Do the test again.  I’m sure you’re going to enjoy having two cats.  It really is better than one!  :) Eva – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If anyone can offer any helpful hints or information that will help us know what is best for our cat and kitten, please let me know. Thanks in advance, Mommers

Response:

Hi Cindy, Welcome.  I can’t help you with kitten info but do encourage you to post again when you have your kitty and tell us how it is working out.  I believe it will be fine. Charleen Mr. Pumpkin Aggie Marble Victor Velcro —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

I am new here and wondered if ya’ll might be willing to give me some advice on our family adopting a new kitten. We have a cat now, who is almost 3 yrs old, spayed and declawed. I have never had 2 cats together.

If they wind up liking eachother, the interactions between them will be fun to watch. Yesterday we went to the shelter to choose a homeless kitten, and fell in love with one, with 7 toes on the front paws and 6 toes on back feet. Small, female, maybe 6 months old that had been turned in. We are to bring her home Monday. My questions are: How do I introduce the kittens food bowls, or do I switch over to kitten food and use the existing bowl? ( Our cat eats the Science diet dry food)

I’d keep the new one isolated in a separate room for a couple of weeks, going in frequently to see her.  With her own food, water, litter, & toys. You’re older cat will become aware that the litten’s there, without any direct contact, except for maybe paws under the door. Will 2 females get along?

They may, & they may not.  I had two females who didn’t get along too well – tolerance, not friendliness, & another two who *do* get along well.  Then a male, whom both of my present females still consider an intruder almost a year after his adoption.  No real telling ahead of  time. Do I start her with her own litter box, or will they share the one we have? ( I felt that maybe using a cardboard flat, next to the existing box for a week or so, might teach her to use that area, is that right?)

I’d start her off with her own litter box, then let her share the original litter box later on. What may happen with the older cat being declawed, and the new one not declawed? ( aside from my furniture being scratched )

Nothing.  I’ve had 2 females – one declawed & one not – no problems w/ one scratching the other, and now a newish Mr. Full-Clawed, who doesn’t use it to advantage over the front-declawed cats.  Actually I don’t think the fully-clawed ones are even cognizant of the fact that the others are front-declawed.  Debbie (front-declawed) growls at him & raises her paw to bat at him, & he backs away, if he gets too close for her comfort.  As for your furniture, try to train the new kitten to a scratching post &/or pad. I had one cat who refused to use one, but my present fully-clawed cat uses the cardboard scratching pads rather than the furniture, so far (fingers crossed). Both of these cats will stay indoors at all times. We can’t wait to bring home our new little kitten, and will be taking our cat to the vet for updated records and bring in the new one for a physical. The animal shelter will then take her back for the spaying, and she will then be home.

I’d bring the new kitten to the vet’s on the way home, just to make sure she has no communicable diseases.  Otherwise, sounds like you have the bases fairly well covered.  Good luck, & a long, healthy life to both cats! Cathy — "Decades gliding by like Indians, time is cheap."   Paul Simon ("Ren

Question:

<snip Another way to help speed acclimation is a medicine called diazoxide. You start it about two days in advance and take it the first few days there. It can make you feel a little weird at first but it helps at the high altitude.

<snip Since their daughter is going to compete in an athletics event she should be very sure that this drug is allowed by the rules of her governing body before she takes it.  It would be very sad and also damaging for her future to lose her results because she took a prohibited drug. — Surfer! http://www.nevis-vieww.demon.co.uk http://www.nevis-vieww.demon.co.uk/flash Hopeful anti-spam: alter double ‘w’ to single ‘w’ to view site & send Email.

Response:

Our daughter is traveling to Vail Colorado to compete in a soccer tournament.  She has asthma which is well controlled with vanceril and provental  here in Kansas City.  Her triggers are allergy related, and not usually exercise-induced. Do any of you have experience with changing altitudes, and its effect on asthma?  Please let us know if there is something we should do to prepare. Chris & Kathy

I have made several trips to Colorado which I dearly love. Part of the reason that I like it so well is that I have almost no asthma symptons while I am there.  I too was very concerned with the first trip.  That trip was with an off-road motorcycle which is quite atheletic. Pushing the bike through snow banks at 12000 ft was difficult but not as bad for me as the other quys.  I think my lungs were not as shocked at oxygen deprevation.  The pollen levels are very low in high altitudes. My triggers are allergy related also.  I think she will do very well. Good luck to your daughter in Vail.  It is a very pretty area. Keith Bilbrey

Response:

guys on the trip.  The lack of oxygen at 12000 ft was not as big a shock to me as it was to them.

  On the other hand I find myself to be more suseptible to hypoxia than non-asthmatics (or at least the ones I know) and find myself getting nervous and turning blue even on moderate high altitude jumps.  No mountain climbing for me! Maury

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I believe the altitude there is about 6000-8000 ft. At that height she will notice that the air is thinner and she will tire easily. The increased respiration can set off excersize induced asthma. When people with allergies move to a different area they generally find that the allergies are better for a while. After a few years they develop new allergies. It will probably not be a big deal. Just take all her meds and watch the peak flows. I don’t think there is anything she can do in advance as far as the asthma. The advice about showing up early is good. Another way to help speed acclimation is a medicine called diazoxide. You start it about two days in advance and take it the first few days there. It can make you feel a little weird at first but it helps at the high altitude. — Good Luck, CBI, M.D. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Our daughter is traveling to Vail Colorado to compete in a soccer tournament.  She has asthma which is well controlled with vanceril and provental  here in Kansas City.  Her triggers are allergy related, and not usually exercise-induced. Do any of you have experience with changing altitudes, and its effect on asthma?  Please let us know if there is something we should do to prepare. Chris & Kathy

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Our daughter is traveling to Vail Colorado to compete in a soccer tournament.  She has asthma which is well controlled with vanceril and provental  here in Kansas City.  Her triggers are allergy related, and not usually exercise-induced. Do any of you have experience with changing altitudes, and its effect on asthma?  Please let us know if there is something we should do to prepare. Chris & Kathy

 I have made several trips to Colorado which I dearly love.  I too was very concerned on the first trip and made sure that I had all my medications with me.  Actually I found that my asthma does much better In the high altitudes.  Two of my trips were with off-road dirt motorcycles which is quite atheletic,  I found that I fared better than the other guys on the trip.  The lack of oxygen at 12000 ft was not as big a shock to me as it was to them.  The air is almost pollen free in the higher altitudes.  I think that part of the reason that I like the area so well is that breathing is probably so much easier for me. I too had difficuly breathing at 12000 ft just like the others but probably not to the extent that they did. I hope the area works the same way for your daughter.  Good luck to her in Vail.  It is very pretty country. Keith Bilbrey

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I’m not sure what the alititude is at Vail or Hansas City.  However, all athletes goind to perform at a significantly higher altitude than they are accustomed to need to acclimatise.  Problems for non-astmatics can be encoutered from probably around 2,000m upwards and will be aggravated if the athlete is not rested following their journey. Climbers reckon to need a week or so to acclimatise reasonably well and usually do it by going to alititude (2,500m+) and excersising and then returning to 1,000m or so to recover for a day or two.  How easily an individual acclimatises seems to have very little to do with how fit they are or how easily they did it in the past.  Climbers can suddenly get stricken with alititude sickness after many climbs, though it’s possible that they got a bit blase! Finally, you don’t mention your daughters event.  If she is a 100m runner (or other sprint athlete) acclimatisation is not much of an issue, but from 800m onwards it will become more and more important. Our daughter is traveling to Vail Colorado to compete in a soccer tournament.  She has asthma which is well controlled with vanceril and provental  here in Kansas City.  Her triggers are allergy related, and not usually exercise-induced. Do any of you have experience with changing altitudes, and its effect on asthma?  Please let us know if there is something we should do to prepare. Chris & Kathy

– Surfer! http://www.nevis-vieww.demon.co.uk http://www.nevis-vieww.demon.co.uk/flash Hopeful anti-spam: alter double ‘w’ to single ‘w’ to view site & send Email.

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Our daughter is traveling to Vail Colorado to compete in a soccer tournament.  She has asthma which is well controlled with vanceril and provental  here in Kansas City.  Her triggers are allergy related, and not usually exercise-induced. Do any of you have experience with changing altitudes, and its effect on asthma?  Please let us know if there is something we should do to prepare. Chris & Kathy

Response:

Our daughter is traveling to Vail Colorado to compete in a soccer tournament.  She has asthma which is well controlled with vanceril and provental  here in Kansas City.  Her triggers are allergy related, and not usually exercise-induced. Do any of you have experience with changing altitudes, and its effect on asthma?  Please let us know if there is something we should do to prepare. Chris & Kathy

Be sure to use a peak flow meter to monitor lung function, and an Action Plan to increase meds if peak flows fall below the Green Zone (<80% of personal best). Generally the inhaled steroid (Vanceril) is doubled and bronchodilator (Proventil) used as needed, in Yellow Zone (50-80% PB). The stress of traveling and change in altitude and  temperature can sometimes tend to worsen asthma. It would be helpful to get there a day ahead of time so she could acclimate to the altitude before engaging in heavy exercise. And she should probably pretreat with Proventil before a game. She should be instructed to leave the game if she experiences symptoms, and use her Proventil inhaler. Note–Both her inhalers, Proventil and Vanceril are allowed in Olympic competition. Some other asthma drugs are disallowed, like oral steroids, ephedrine, Proventil tablets, and the decongestant pseudoephedrine. Here’s a link: http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/jan_96/rupp.htm  Diagnosis and  Management of Exercise-Induced Asthma, Jan 96 Excerpt "EIA affects a broad segment of the population. Up to 90% of people who  have asthma experience EIA during the course of their disease, and  most consider exercise to be a major precipitant of their asthma (4-6).  In addition, 35% to 40% of patients who have allergic rhinitis  experience EIA precipitated by allergens, viruses, cold air, air  pollutants, or a combination of these factors (2,4-7). Beta agonists are the drugs of choice for preventing isolated EIA and  for on-demand treatment of exercise-induced acute asthma exacerbations (2,6,7,15,24,26). This group includes the established short-acting  agents albuterol, bitolterol mesylate, metaproterenol sulfate,  pirbuterol acetate, terbutaline sulfate, and the newer, longer-acting  salmeterol. Both short and long-acting beta agonists are effective in  nearly all patients who have asthma–those with chronic obstruction and  those who have only exercise-related obstruction. However, short-acting  beta agonists are the most effective agents for preventing EIA, and are  effective in 80% to 95% of patients (27). They reverse contraction of  bronchial smooth muscle and are very effective bronchodilators (28). Current guidelines for the management of EIA begin with administration  of a short-acting inhaled beta agonist 15 minutes before exercise.  Patients should then undertake a 15-minute warm-up period of stretching  and low-level exercise, followed by a 15-minute rest period before  intense exercise if possible. If asthma symptoms develop during exercise,  on-demand therapy with two puffs of short-acting beta agonist should be  repeated(6). Corticosteroids administered through an inhaler improve asthma symptoms  by reducing airway inflammation and bronchial hyperreactivity. They do  not have any immediate bronchodilator effect and are not effective if  used alone just prior to exercise. Corticosteroids should instead be  used as maintenance therapy to control asthma. Such use can improve the  effectiveness of pre-exercise beta agonists in preventing or decreasing  the severity of EIA (6,47). " Copyright (C) 1996. The McGraw-Hill Companies. All Rights Reserved Ellis

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Question:

I have heard of taking magnesium….but how much. Also, orally or iv? Neil

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 I don’t know if this will help or not. I give my son one 200 mg capsule of magnesium a day. Plus he has another capsule called Fibromylagin that has 50 mg of magnesium malate in it. He has asthma but that is not why he was put on these. He is on them for his fibromyalgia. As to them helping asthma I can’t say if they do or don’t. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have heard of taking magnesium….but how much. Also, orally or iv? Neil

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I have heard of taking magnesium….but how much. Also, orally or iv? Neil

Knew this info (below) would come in handy one day!  I also collected information on other vitamin and mineral supplements during the same search through alta vista – typed in "asthma" and "name of vitamin/mineral".  I also found a source which dealt with the use of magnesium in acute attacks (they use an IV), but unfortunately seem to have mislaid it! Sorry! Dietary Magnesium and Asthma Reprinted from Medical Sciences Bulletin , February 1995, published by Pharmaceutical Information Associates, Ltd. Magnesium is fourth on the list of the most abundant cations in the body (following calcium, sodium, and potassium), and it is second only to potassium as the most abundant intracellular cation. It is an essential cofactor in more than 300 different enzymatic reactions, including carbohydrate utilization, ATP metabolism, muscle contraction, transmembrane ion transport (calcium, sodium, chloride, potassium), and the synthesis of fat, protein, and nucleic acids. Magnesium also appears to play an important role in lung function. In a large study of adults selected randomly from the general population, Britton et al. found that high dietary magnesium intake was independently associated with better lung function and less asthma and wheezing. The investigators calculated dietary magnesium intake (by food frequency questionnaire) and evaluated lung function and atopy in 2633 volunteers aged 18 to 70 years. Lung function was measured as one-second forced-expiratory volume (FEV1) and by airway reactivity to inhaled methacholine. Atopy was measured as skin-prick response to three environmental allergens. Subjects described their respiratory symptoms and gave social, medical, occupational, and smoking histories. Mean magnesium intake was 380 mg/day, although intake varied widely and was significantly lower in females than males. Intake also decreased significantly with increasing age. After adjusting for age, sex, height, and the effects of atopy and smoking, the investigators found that a 100 mg/day higher magnesium intake was associated with a significantly higher FEV1 and a reduction in lung hyperreactivity. Magnesium has several antiasthmatic actions: as a calcium antagonist it relaxes airway smooth muscle (in vitro) and dilates bronchioles (in vivo). It also inhibits cholinergic transmission, increases nitric oxide release, and reduces airway inflammation (by stabilizing mast cells and T- lymphocytes). The investigators concluded, "Low magnesium intake may therefore be involved in the etiology of asthma and chronic obstructive airways disease." Dietary magnesium is obtained from cereals, nuts, green vegetables, and dairy products. However, according to Britton et al., a substantial amount is lost in cooking or in refining foods. Diets high in refined or processed foods are thus likely to be low in magnesium. Magnesium deficiency is surprisingly common. In one study, hypomagnesemia was found in 65% of an intensive care population and 11% of an outpatient population. Magnesium is used pharmacologically in acute myocardial infarction, angina, cardiac arrhythmias, alcohol withdrawal, and pre-eclampsia. It has been used to treat acute asthma, and now it appears that magnesium may also help prevent asthma. (Britton J et al. Lancet. 1994; 344: 357-361. McLean RM. Am J Med. 1994; 96: 63-76.)

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Question:

Hi, Ashley! Thanks!!! Now I have locked it in my newsreader!!!! I like to include it when I respond to spammers… — Best regards / Med vennlig hilsen,       Aase Marit ))))))            ("Aw-Se-Mareet" from Norway) http://w1.2380.telia.com/~u238000263/flaker/docs/index.html

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Here’s the charter for misc.health.arthritis: CHARTER The proposed group [misc.health.arthritis] would be intended for discussions about different aspects of arthritis and related autoimmune disorders, such as lupus and scleroderma, mainly from the patient’s point of view. Medical discussions are supposed to be informational only, not intended for a substitute of consulting a properly trained medical practitioner. Anyone with an interest in arthritis is free to post, including but not limited to patients, their friends and family members, doctors, and other medical professionals dealing with different forms of arthritis. The following are examples of intended topics: – symptoms and causes of different forms of arthritis – treatments, both conventional and alternative – arthritis-related practical problems and ways to overcome them – social issues relevant to arthritis patients – emotional support – different resources available to people with arthritis Scientific discussions that are likely to interest arthritis patients in general are welcome on misc.health.arthritis, even if cross-posted to sci.med.immunology. Commercial advertisements may NOT be posted to the proposed group [misc.health.arthritis]. The whole file for the charter is available from ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/misc/misc.health.arth… I’ve never been able to find one for a.s.a.  Has anyone else?  - ashley — Finished unperfection beats unfinished perfection every tiem. (remove the obvious)

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Hi, Arthur! I seem to have lost the charter of misc.health.arthritis. Could you please post it on the group? Then I will make sure to lock it for later… Oh, yes… Do you know if there’s a charter for alt.support.arthritis, or where to find it? — Best regards / Med vennlig hilsen,       Aase Marit ))))))            ("Aw-Se-Mareet" from Norway) http://w1.2380.telia.com/~u238000263/flaker/docs/index.html

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he gave us 800 numbers: ‘Also call this phone number for more information— 1-800-685-0257 and 1-888-464-0455.’ remember, that one phone call to each number is not illegal, but more than that can be considered phone harassment, which is illegal. also, that the only check is the phone number from which the call came, so don’t do it more than once from any phone number. pay phones are just fine! Article 24311 of alt.support.arthritis: Path: thoth.nilenet.com!news.intersurf.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.c… Newsgroups: alt.support.arthritis Organization: N/A Lines: 674 NNTP-Posting-Host: n209060174241.inetworld.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b7 Xref: thoth.nilenet.com alt.support.arthritis:24311 — experience is what allows a person to make new mistakes, instead of the old ones. to send me email, remove ’syzygy.’  from my address

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There is a light at the end of the  tunnel. I have discovered over the last 20 months, how to effectively cleanse the digestive system and rebuild the body with two wonderful products,  Harmony and Experience.

How would I have ever guessed that you would have a solution for this terrible problem?  Ahh, my hero!!! Actually, eating some chewing tabacco will clean you out about as well as anything.  At least that’s what some hog farmer friends of mine tell me. —- The Skipper

Response:

he gave us 800 numbers: ‘Also call this phone number for more information— 1-800-685-0257 and 1-888-464-0455.’ remember, that one phone call to each number is not illegal, but more than that can be considered phone harassment, which is illegal. also, that the only check is the phone number from which the call came, so don’t do it more than once from any phone number. pay phones are just fine! Article 24311 of alt.support.arthritis: Path: thoth.nilenet.com!news.intersurf.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.c… Newsgroups: alt.support.arthritis Organization: N/A Lines: 674 NNTP-Posting-Host: n209060174241.inetworld.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b7 Xref: thoth.nilenet.com alt.support.arthritis:24311 Hi all Read the below information, I believe it is very important, it deals with our Health and Internal body cleansing. Let me know what you think. My mother and I have been using the products for over a month and we have already noticed improvement of health and energy. My mother has Chronic Acute Asthma, since she has been taking the parasite cleansing products for the first time in 3 years she has not had to take her Ashthma medicine. I give some to my 12 year old dog and she is acting like she is much younger with more energy. If you are interested in getting the products for cleaning out Internal parasites I am a distributor and we can get it to you. There are a few other products out there but after researching we found this is the best one that gets rid off ALL the harmful internal parasites, others we found got rid of some, but not all. Also call this phone number for more information— 1-800-685-0257 and my heart this is very beneficial to mankind, pets also.             Are You Clear of Parasites?        By Dr. Ross Anderson        I believe the single most undiagnosed health challenge in the history of the        human race is parasites. I realize that this is a pretty brave statement, but it is        based on my 20 years of experience with more than 20,000 patients.        In order to substantiate my belief, I’d like to present you with some facts. I’m        sure that by the time you’ve finished reading this article, you’ll be convinced of        the parasite challenge and of the need for a fail-safe natural parasitic cleansing        method.        The signs of parasites in the human body include:            itchy ears, nose, anus                                         men: sexual dysfunction forgetfulness            slow reflexes                                         gas and bloating unclear thinking            loss of appetite                                         yellowish face                                                                       fast heartbeat            heart pain                                         pain in the navel                                                                       numb hands            blurry, unclear vision                                         burning feeling in stomach                                                                       lethargy            eating but still feeling