Question:

Now this is the type of dangerous commercial advertising which ought to be thoroughly slammed and certainly no one with food allergies would be swallowing any ancient "herbal" recipes without knowledge of 100% of their ingredients and their implications on their personal health situation. I hope all you watchdogs out there jumped on this one.

Response:

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Question:

: :About the effect of deep breaths, see Leatherman J. Clinics in Chest :Medicine, vol 15, No. 3, Sept. 1994, page 456  "Some patients with :asthma experience a transient worsening of symptoms following  a :spirometry or a PEFR maneuver. This may be due in part to the :bronchoconstricter effect of a deep inhalation when airways are inflamed :57. In the patient who is already severely obstructed, this transient :reduction in airflow may be dangerous.  Indeed, cases of :cardiorespiratory arrest following measurement of PEFR in acute asthma :have been reported 55."  Why are you such a hardliner on the question of, :it seems to me, there being no effect of Buteyko or any other breathing :exercises on asthma for most people? : Surely that would indicate that these particular asthmatics were *not* chronic overbreathers, as in that case the exceptional PEFR/spirometry induced overbreathing would have had no effect? Barry Landy                        Computer Laboratory:+44 1223 334600 Head of Systems and Development    Direct line:        +44 1223 334713 University of Cambridge Computing Service Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG

Response:

because as was shown by many documented tests every average asthmatic is a chronic hyperventilator. Cites?

I have spent the past year asking for citations which back up the Buteyko claims.  On the few occasion I was given citations, I looked them up and discovered that the citations did not say what the Buteyko proponents claimed they did. In fact if you read the Brisbane trial carefully, tidal volume was compared between asthmatics and non-asthmatic ‘controls’.  The researchers found no statistically meaningful differences in the total volume of air breathed between the two groups. There was a problem with concerns that the measuring technique may have inflated the values, but, since both groups were tested using the same technique it would still be an accurate comparison. (Ready to cut-and-paste as I expect a Buteyko proponent who hasn’t read the report will challange me on this . . . again.) ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers.

Response:

I don’t object to people questioning the technique – it just riles me when people slam it as quackery without having tried it. There are people, (myself included) who aren’t so much slamming the technique as the lack of scientific evidence for the technique.  If it really does  help people, research can and should be conducted to prove this (there are millions of asthmatics in the U.S. who are suffering, and if Buteyko could be proven to work to the satisfaction of the FDA, I’d be more supportive.   As for trying it, I’ve tried on several occasions to use "reverse Buteyko", where I intentionally take MORE air in (in the form of very deep breaths) to reduce an attack.  It works best when I think it will stop my attack, but for me it *works*. No money, no videos, no training

Scott T.

Hi, About the effect of deep breaths, see Leatherman J. Clinics in Chest Medicine, vol 15, No. 3, Sept. 1994, page 456  "Some patients with asthma experience a transient worsening of symptoms following  a spirometry or a PEFR maneuver. This may be due in part to the bronchoconstricter effect of a deep inhalation when airways are inflamed 57. In the patient who is already severely obstructed, this transient reduction in airflow may be dangerous.  Indeed, cases of cardiorespiratory arrest following measurement of PEFR in acute asthma have been reported 55."  Why are you such a hardliner on the question of, it seems to me, there being no effect of Buteyko or any other breathing exercises on asthma for most people?

Response:

Surely the orthodox medical view (see Chest, Thorax etc.) is that asthmatics chronically and insiduously hyperventilate between attacks and intensively do so in the early part of an attack. Of course there will be exceptions, like asthmatics that don’t  respond to bronchodilators or to steroids and many will in an examination between attacks change their breathing pattern so that hyperventilation won’t be detected.

Actually, the orthodox view is that asthma is an inflamitory disease linked to atopy.  In fact the suspected ‘asthma genes’ located so far appear to be in the chromosonal regions believed to control the immune system. As I do regular keyword searches on medline (using the keywords ‘asthma AND hyperventilation’) your ‘appeal to authority’ falls flat.  There is _no_ scientific evidence that supports the theory of ‘chronic overbreathing.’  I’d clhallange you to provide research articles that support your theory but we remember how I was able to point out that your articles did not in fact support your theories the last time you tried. I know that you believe in the Buteyko hteory, but then again, there are people who believe that the earth is flat. Question: how can you rule out the placebo effect in your ’sucess stories (and do you even try)?’

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I am in US and just heard about this technique.  My girl friend who is India has been suffering from Asthma since she was 14 years old.  She is 25 now.  Nothing so far has helped her and she gets periodic attacks of asthma every now and then.  Does anyone knows any side effect of this therapy.  As long as there is no side effect I don’t mind using this therapy for her.  Please suggest.  Thanks in advance. There is NO documentation that this technique works for ANY of the diseases for which it is recommended.  Have your girlfriend see a doctor. Chris Owens There is enough documentation.

Documentation consists of independent clinical trials, NOT anecdotal accounts. because as was shown by many documented tests every average asthmatic is a chronic hyperventilator.

Cites? Chris Owens

Response:

First, Linda, thanks for the kind words.  And as a recent Ph.D. myself, I know that bad research gets published and accepted all the time…which made me a little more wary of Buteyko (if they can’t meet the minimum research standards they are so fond of criticizing, FOR ANY MEDICAL JOURNAL THAT HAS PUBLISHED THE BENEFITS OF EXERCISE (another "free" treatment, but one accepted by doctors as healthy, and one without a drug-company benefit stock (you might make the case for shoe companies, but it’s a reach), maybe they don’t really have anything.) Second, in case someone (Ian?) was wondering, there *have* been side effect tests done on inhalers far more recently than forty years ago.  Heck, my CFC-free inhaler didn’t even *exist* a few years ago.  Reading the pamplets helps. Third, as to the issue of side effects, knowing that blood can carry *either* oxygen or CO2, but not both means that I can only increase my blood CO2 levels by reducing the amount of oxygen in there.  Oxygen that might be going to my brain or other useful organs.  There is no proof that this happens, and acedotal evidence is difficult to assess, since the same rules of scientific research apply to side effects as well as indended effects (not to be confused with "main effects", that’s A Nova of a different color (sorry!  Bad stats pun).) I’m glad there’s more study.  But with any research, drug or Buteyko, make sure you read the entire study, and if something troubles you, point out what to your physician (and if yo get better, likewise let them know.  And if they don’t care, find a better doctor.) Scott T.

Response:

: It is simply untrue that : "as was shown by many documented tests every average asthmatic is a (….) I can’t speak for everyone, but it has worked for me – amazingly well, in fact. : The only way the above assertion could be properly proved would be to : take a large (10,000 say) sample of random people; to separately screen : them for asthma and for hyperventilation; and then to correlate the : results.

Hi, Surely the orthodox medical view (see Chest, Thorax etc.) is that asthmatics chronically and insiduously hyperventilate between attacks and intensively do so in the early part of an attack. Of course there will be exceptions, like asthmatics that don’t  respond to bronchodilators or to steroids and many will in an examination between attacks change their breathing pattern so that hyperventilation won’t be detected. : Every anecdotal report I have seen of people who have been "cured" by : Buteyko have been genuine asthma sufferers on a bad drug regime; : typically overdosing (uselessly) on Salbutamol (Ventolin) and : underdosing on bronchodilators such as Beclamethasone.

This would also be an achievement for Buteyko. I recently told an asthmatic women on the phone to test Buteyko by breathing less and seeing if symptoms became less.  They did and she finds B fantastic.  I did however beg her to check everything out with her MD as she stopped taking medication. I was not on a bad drug regime – my asthma was well controlled (by western medical standards.  Nonetheless I am now drug free and the quality of my life has improved dramatically.  I am going to bed late, getting up early and feeling amazingly energetic throughout the day. Why don’t you try the technique and learn about it before you criticise?

Linda, that’s just the crucial point isn’t it? After being through an asthma attack and having read the usual explanations of the disease (contraction of the airways caused by allergens for example) and considering the whole matter with the idea of there being a cause and effect which do not swap roles any sufferer would feel somewhat insulted if told that an asthmatic breathes too much. — Linda McIver                          

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The truth knocks on the door and you say ‘Go away, I’m looking for the truth,’ and so it goes away.  Puzzling."            – Robert M Pirsig.  Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance.

Response:

:When you have an accident on a bicycle, people say "You see?  Bikes aren’t :safe.  You shouldn’t ride them, especially on the road."  But when you have :an accident in a car, people say "Gosh.  Life is hard."   :Are we blind? Nothing to do with asthma, but no, I do not say that! I am perpetually amazed that people/governments take all sorts of measures to reduce mortality from certain things by enormously expensive preventative techniques (industry for example) and neglect the two certain major killers – cars and tobacco. Barry Landy                        Computer Laboratory:+44 1223 334600 Head of Systems and Development    Direct line:        +44 1223 334713 University of Cambridge Computing Service Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG

Response:

: :I don’t think anyone says that it is impossible that this technique works : :for some people, but rather that there is no basis for broad-based claims : f effectiveness for all asthmatics. : Precisely my point. : "Trust us, try it and see" is not an approach designed to engender : confidence:- : "I can fly, you can too. All you do is just flap your arms and jump out : of a window. You dont believe me? Just try it and see." (But ***please** : do not!) *grin* It’s an amusing analogy, but there is a difference – what do you have to lose from trying Buteyko?  It’s hardly as dangerous as trying to fly.  I investigated it thoroughly before starting, and I could find no risk associated.  I had to sign a form before starting the course that promised I would not reduce my preventer medication without consulting a doctor. It seemed to me that it was worth a try. — — When you have an accident on a bicycle, people say "You see?  Bikes aren’t safe.  You shouldn’t ride them, especially on the road."  But when you have an accident in a car, people say "Gosh.  Life is hard."   Are we blind?

Response:

: There is enough documentation. What standard of documentation are we talking about here?  Even snake-oil salesmen have "documentation".  Then there is the question of the placebo effect… : Just do a Web Search with "Buteyko" and "hyperventilation" or "asthma". Are web-sites the purveyors of trusted information?  How does one know that these web-sites are properly reviewed to modern scientific standards? There is a reason for acting reasonably conservatively (with regard to new treatments) where asthma is concerned—it has the potential to be fatal if improperly treated.

Response:

: : That’s why I asked for any failure stories, before I started the course.  I : got no response.   Which I recognise is not proof of anything, it’s just that : I’ve not heard of anyone for whom the technique has not worked. : I could see why you’d find that encouraging, although it’s also possible that those : who’ve tried it generally don’t read this group.  That’s true – I certainly didn’t take it as proof.  As you say, I found no proof at all, but I heard lots of positive stories and no negative.  That was not enough to convince me that it worked, but certainly enough to encourage me to try it. : I don’t object to people questioning the technique – it just riles me when : people slam it as quackery without having tried it. : There are people, (myself included) who aren’t so much slamming the : technique as the lack of scientific evidence for the technique.  If it really does : help people, research can and should be conducted to prove this (there are : millions of asthmatics in the U.S. who are suffering, and if Buteyko could be : proven to work to the satisfaction of the FDA, I’d be more supportive.   Actually I’ve found you to be one of the most rational and reasoned respondents on this topic.  You have (from what I have seen) suggested caution, but never slammed it as quackery.  I have no problem with that – it’s a very sensible approach. : As for trying it, I’ve tried on several occasions to use "reverse Buteyko", where I : intentionally take MORE air in (in the form of very deep breaths) to reduce an : attack.  It works best when I think it will stop my attack, but for me it *works*. : No money, no videos, no training…just a really practical application of the : placebo effect (and I don’t care why it works as long as it holds me together long : enough to get better help.)  I think that both regular and my "reverse" Buteyko : both work on increasing adreniline, but it’s very difficult to measure small : changes in adrenaline levels because taking a blood sample increasese the level, : too (this was one of the few medical bits covered in my marketing research class.) If it works for you, that’s great. : My points are that: : a.  I’m glad your asthma is better (and I understand your enthusiasm.)   : b.  The scientific method can help us find out if there’s a more efficent way to do : things…otherwise we’re still mucking about with the 3 cc of mouse blood and a : hen’s egg (non-Terry Pratchett fans, don’t ask.  Just read his books.) Actually you don’t even need the mouse blood… I do value scientific method (I ought to, I’m doing a PhD in computer science , and I don’t disagree on this point – I can’t wait until Buteyko has been studied properly.  At the same time, though, I am aware of any number of allegedly scientific studies which produced very dodgy results.  Even if I had seen scientific proof, I still would not have been convinced until I had tried the technique myself. : c.  My main criticism of Dr. B. is not that he doesn’t work for some people, but : that the exact opposite of what he suggests works for me.  Since, indirectly, : that’s helped, maybe I shouldn’t be so critical.  Certainly we should both keep : seeing a doctor, in case either theory doesn’t work in the long run. Absolutely.  I will always carry my ventolin.  Even my Buteyko teacher still carries her ventolin, although she hasn’t needed it in four years. Incidentally, the Victorian Asthma Foundation is about to embark on a study of Buteyko, along with various hospital and university groups, as well as the Australian Buteyko Institute.   It will be intriguing to see what they come up with. — Linda McIver                             — The act of learning something about yourself changes the self about whom you thought you knew.  (It’s probably quantum)

Response:

: : : : Hi I am in US and just heard about this technique.  My girl friend who is : : India has been suffering from Asthma since she was 14 years old.  She is : : There is NO documentation that this technique works for ANY of the : : diseases for which it is recommended.  Have your girlfriend see a doctor. : There is *some* documentation (see the results of the brisbane trial which : have been mentioned here before) from western tests, there is considerable : documentation from Russian experiments too, I understand. But nothing I read of the Brisbane trial claimed to show, conclusively, that there was benefit in practicing the Buteyko method. : There is also a lot of annecdotal evidence. There is also anecdotal "evidence" of rhinoceros horn being good for something or other.  Moreover, anecdotal evidence is not enough proof of effacy for one to recommend this as a _general_ treatment for a potentially life-threatening disorder. : I don’t grudge you your right to disagree with the buteyko technique, and : you have, of course, every right to express your opinion, but it would be : nice if you could be a little less bombastic. I do not see that anything that was bombastic there, except possibly the loud NO and ANY.  To some extent this is justified, as there is a tendency for _some_ Buteyko advocates to be a little over-the-top. : Buteyko does work.  It is *not* quackery. But it does not work for everybody.  It would be irresponsible to recommend that someone try Buteyko ahead of first getting the situation under proper control with proven medical techniques.  By all means, experiment with the Buteyko method, but do it carefully, as it would not be wise to allow one’s asthma to go completely out of control while experimenting with the Buteyko method, in the event that it does not work. : The Victorian Asthma Foundation acknowledges that it has helped many : people … and it probably has, but there is just not the evidence that it helps more people than the various inhaled steroids, nor that it works as well as the usual brochodialators for acute bronchospasm, thus, it is not a good idea to recommend that people seek it as a first course of action. Yours sincerely, Kin Hoong

Response:

: : (whatever is meant by "average asthmatic"). The only reports I have seen : : quoted are Dr Buteyko’s research in the USSR in the 1950’s (with no : : external verification of the data), and the Brisbane trial of a handful : : of Pre-selected patients. : : I can’t speak for everyone, but it has worked for me – amazingly well, in : fact. : The problem is that how do you know that you are not expierencing the : placebo effect? I don’t care if I am – my asthma is gone.  My quality of life has improved dramatically.  Quite frankly I don’t care about the cause,  I feel so well. : Almost a year ago I challanged the Buteyko supporters to produce _one_ : scientificaly valid, peer reviewed, blinded study where the researchers : concluded that Buteyko is both safe and effective. : The only scientific study performed on Buteyko was the Bisbane trial and : that blew a hole in the central belief of Buteyko (that asthmatics : breathe more than non-asthmatics).  Of course a Buteyko practiconer : simply went and wrote his own version of the study where he ignored the : inconvient data and expert opinions. Having read the results of the B_r_isbane trial (you pride yourself on your scientific approach, and you can’t even get the name of the place right!), I can’t see where you get this line from.  I have read the researchers conclusions (written by the researchers themselves, and not the Buteyko practitioner involved) and I did not see anything that supports this statement. : Why don’t you try the technique and learn about it before you criticise? : Because of the comment in the Bisbane study that Buteyko may simply mask : asthma symptoms without affecting overal disease severity.  (I bet your : Buteyko practicioner didn’t tell you about this – right?) Actually, my practitioner was quite open with me about the results of the Brisbane study.   As I recall, the Brisbane researchers (among others) queried the validity of their measurement techniques when measuring how much people breathe, and carbon dioxide levels. I am a scientist myself, and I know the flaws in the scientific method which you value so highly.  I was not willing to wait until the medical profession had removed their blindfolds in order to test the Buteyko technique impartially.  I had heard so much positive annecdotal evidence, and nothing negative (although I asked for it) I thought it was worth a try.  What did I have to lose?  A little cash.   There’s no doubt in my mind – it’s the best thing I ever did.  Despite a shocking hay fever season in Melbourne I am hardly suffering (and my hay fever has always been appalling).  In addition, I have not needed any asthma medication in over a month, and the most convincing thing is I feel great.  I have more energy, need less sleep, and feel better than I’ve felt in years.  That’s quite enough evidence for me. — — You can’t depend on your judgment when your imagination is out of focus.         (Mark Twain)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : (whatever is meant by "average asthmatic"). The only reports I have seen : quoted are Dr Buteyko’s research in the USSR in the 1950’s (with no : external verification of the data), and the Brisbane trial of a handful : of Pre-selected patients. I can’t speak for everyone, but it has worked for me – amazingly well, in fact. The problem is that how do you know that you are not expierencing the placebo effect? Almost a year ago I challanged the Buteyko supporters to produce _one_ scientificaly valid, peer reviewed, blinded study where the researchers concluded that Buteyko is both safe and effective.

snip In this world there are negative personalities and positive personalities; constructive personalities and destructive personalities. Optimists whose glasses are half full and pessimists whose glasses are half empty. People who embrace life and are willing to take a chance and people who believe all they are told and do all they are told to do. The former, when presented with the anecdotal evidence available so far about the Buteyko method would  say "This sounds interesting. Why don’t we get together and pressurise the various asthma research foundations (many, with plenty of available funds) to carry out a scientificaly valid, peer reviewed, blinded study into the Buteyko method." The latter would say "There are no scientifically valid, peer reviewed, blinded studies into the Buteyko method, therefore we should deride the protagonists of the method  and continue to overuse scientificallly sanctioned bronchodilators" ( which have not been submitted to a scientifically valid, peer reviewed, blinded study into the side effects of 40 plus years of use) Iain MacDonald

Response:

: I don’t think anyone says that it is impossible that this technique works : for some people, but rather that there is no basis for broad-based claims : of effectiveness for all asthmatics. That’s why I asked for any failure stories, before I started the course.  I got no response.   Which I recognise is not proof of anything, it’s just that I’ve not heard of anyone for whom the technique has not worked.  Actually, there was one guy who posted to this group saying he’d tried it from the video, but I’m hoping he’ll clarify his comments – it wasn’t clear what he’d tried or whether he’d taken up the offer of email consultation. I don’t object to people questioning the technique – it just riles me when people slam it as quackery without having tried it.  I may well be oversensitive to that, since it’s a common theme on this newsgroup.  My apologies if that’s the case. — — WYSIWYG – they call it that because "What You See Bears Some Faint Resemblance To What You Might Eventually Get If You Are Lucky -WYSBSFRTWYMEGIYAL" doesn’t have quite the same ring to it.  

Response:

That’s why I asked for any failure stories, before I started the course.  I got no response.   Which I recognise is not proof of anything, it’s just that I’ve not heard of anyone for whom the technique has not worked.

I could see why you’d find that encouraging, although it’s also possible that those who’ve tried it generally don’t read this group. I don’t object to people questioning the technique – it just riles me when people slam it as quackery without having tried it.

There are people, (myself included) who aren’t so much slamming the technique as the lack of scientific evidence for the technique.  If it really does help people, research can and should be conducted to prove this (there are millions of asthmatics in the U.S. who are suffering, and if Buteyko could be proven to work to the satisfaction of the FDA, I’d be more supportive.   As for trying it, I’ve tried on several occasions to use "reverse Buteyko", where I intentionally take MORE air in (in the form of very deep breaths) to reduce an attack.  It works best when I think it will stop my attack, but for me it *works*. No money, no videos, no training…just a really practical application of the placebo effect (and I don’t care why it works as long as it holds me together long enough to get better help.)  I think that both regular and my "reverse" Buteyko both work on increasing adreniline, but it’s very difficult to measure small changes in adrenaline levels because taking a blood sample increasese the level, too (this was one of the few medical bits covered in my marketing research class.) My points are that: a.  I’m glad your asthma is better (and I understand your enthusiasm.)   b.  The scientific method can help us find out if there’s a more efficent way to do things…otherwise we’re still mucking about with the 3 cc of mouse blood and a hen’s egg (non-Terry Pratchett fans, don’t ask.  Just read his books.) c.  My main criticism of Dr. B. is not that he doesn’t work for some people, but that the exact opposite of what he suggests works for me.  Since, indirectly, that’s helped, maybe I shouldn’t be so critical.  Certainly we should both keep seeing a doctor, in case either theory doesn’t work in the long run. Scott T.

Response:

:I don’t think anyone says that it is impossible that this technique works :for some people, but rather that there is no basis for broad-based claims f effectiveness for all asthmatics. Precisely my point. "Trust us, try it and see" is not an approach designed to engender confidence:- "I can fly, you can too. All you do is just flap your arms and jump out of a window. You dont believe me? Just try it and see." (But ***please** do not!) : iana Walker : : : Why don’t you try the technique and learn about it before you criticise? : : — : Linda McIver                           : : : Barry Landy                        Computer Laboratory:+44 1223 334600 University of Cambridge Computing Service Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG

Response:

I don’t think anyone says that it is impossible that this technique works for some people, but rather that there is no basis for broad-based claims of effectiveness for all asthmatics. Diana Walker – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why don’t you try the technique and learn about it before you criticise? — Linda McIver                              

Response:

: (whatever is meant by "average asthmatic"). The only reports I have seen : quoted are Dr Buteyko’s research in the USSR in the 1950’s (with no : external verification of the data), and the Brisbane trial of a handful : of Pre-selected patients. I can’t speak for everyone, but it has worked for me – amazingly well, in fact.

The problem is that how do you know that you are not expierencing the placebo effect? Almost a year ago I challanged the Buteyko supporters to produce _one_ scientificaly valid, peer reviewed, blinded study where the researchers concluded that Buteyko is both safe and effective. The only scientific study performed on Buteyko was the Bisbane trial and that blew a hole in the central belief of Buteyko (that asthmatics breathe more than non-asthmatics).  Of course a Buteyko practiconer simply went and wrote his own version of the study where he ignored the inconvient data and expert opinions. Why don’t you try the technique and learn about it before you criticise?

Because of the comment in the Bisbane study that Buteyko may simply mask asthma symptoms without affecting overal disease severity.  (I bet your Buteyko practicioner didn’t tell you about this – right?)

Response:

: It is simply untrue that : "as was shown by many documented tests every average asthmatic is a : chronic hyperventilator" : (whatever is meant by "average asthmatic"). The only reports I have seen : quoted are Dr Buteyko’s research in the USSR in the 1950’s (with no : external verification of the data), and the Brisbane trial of a handful : of Pre-selected patients. I can’t speak for everyone, but it has worked for me – amazingly well, in fact. : The only way the above assertion could be properly proved would be to : take a large (10,000 say) sample of random people; to separately screen : them for asthma and for hyperventilation; and then to correlate the : results. : Every anecdotal report I have seen of people who have been "cured" by : Buteyko have been genuine asthma sufferers on a bad drug regime; : typically overdosing (uselessly) on Salbutamol (Ventolin) and : underdosing on bronchodilators such as Beclamethasone. I was not on a bad drug regime – my asthma was well controlled (by western medical standards.  Nonetheless I am now drug free and the quality of my life has improved dramatically.  I am going to bed late, getting up early and feeling amazingly energetic throughout the day. Why don’t you try the technique and learn about it before you criticise? — Linda McIver                             — "The truth knocks on the door and you say ‘Go away, I’m looking for the truth,’ and so it goes away.  Puzzling."                 — Robert M Pirsig.  Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance.

Response:

: : … : … : It is simply untrue that : : "as was shown by many documented tests every average asthmatic is a : chronic hyperventilator" : : (whatever is meant by "average asthmatic"). The only reports I have seen : quoted are Dr Buteyko’s research in the USSR in the 1950’s (with no : external verification of the data), and the Brisbane trial of a handful : of Pre-selected patients. : :Right, then not "every average asthmatic", but average asthmatics in :those :trials and research works (BTW I have couple more of them with thousands f patients participating). That is more than enough for me to get :convinced :to try such a trivial and easy approach. Please give references. : : : The only way the above assertion could be properly proved would be to : take a large (10,000 say) sample of random people; to separately screen : them for asthma and for hyperventilation; and then to correlate the : results. : :What an interesting idea, could you elaborate ? :How high correlation do you then need ? 99.9% ? :Is there anything in medicine about asthma that was proven in that :extent ? There are a very large number of things about all proven medical reatments that are proved on massive trials involving thousands of patients. 99.9 % is not needed, unless, as in fact you appear to do, the assertion is that *all* asthmatics hyperventilate, since then even one who does not hyperventilate disproves the assertion. If the assertion is that "a large majority of asthmatics hyperventilate", then obviusly the large trial needs to find such a large majority, eg 75%. Whatever is asserted must be clearly stated BEFORE the trial (a given of a scientific trial). Notice also the other key point; those who are assessing for hyperventilation must be completely independent of those assessing for asthma, and vice versa, so that no presumptions can bias the findings. Barry Landy                        Computer Laboratory:+44 1223 334600 University of Cambridge Computing Service Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG

Response:

:

: : Hi I am in US and just heard about this technique.  My girl friend who is : India has been suffering from Asthma since she was 14 years old.  She is : 25 now.  Nothing so far has helped her and she gets periodic attacks of : asthma every now and then.  Does anyone knows any side effect of this : therapy.  As long as there is no side effect I don’t mind using this : therapy for her.  Please suggest.  Thanks in advance. : : There is NO documentation that this technique works for ANY of the : diseases for which it is recommended.  Have your girlfriend see a doctor. : : Chris Owens : :There is enough documentation. Just do a Web Search with "Buteyko" and :"hyperventilation" or "asthma". Obviously certain confused people have :problems with the fact that it works, it is for free, and the possible :side effects do not seem to be greater than from doing a moderate sport :activity. To see a doctor might be a good idea for doing the :hyperventilation tests (level of arterial CO2 and the minute volume), :because as was shown by many documented tests every average asthmatic is :a chronic hyperventilator. To see a doctor will also show if and how :confused he/she is. It is simply untrue that "as was shown by many documented tests every average asthmatic is a chronic hyperventilator" (whatever is meant by "average asthmatic"). The only reports I have seen quoted are Dr Buteyko’s research in the USSR in the 1950’s (with no external verification of the data), and the Brisbane trial of a handful of Pre-selected patients. The only way the above assertion could be properly proved would be to take a large (10,000 say) sample of random people; to separately screen them for asthma and for hyperventilation; and then to correlate the results. Every anecdotal report I have seen of people who have been "cured" by Buteyko have been genuine asthma sufferers on a bad drug regime; typically overdosing (uselessly) on Salbutamol (Ventolin) and underdosing on bronchodilators such as Beclamethasone. :I am sure you and your girlfriend will be able to see yourself what :makes sense and what is a brainwashing. : : Vladimir : : Barry Landy                        Computer Laboratory:+44 1223 334600 Head of Systems and Development    Direct line:        +44 1223 334713 University of Cambridge Computing Service Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG

Response:

… … It is simply untrue that "as was shown by many documented tests every average asthmatic is a chronic hyperventilator" (whatever is meant by "average asthmatic"). The only reports I have seen quoted are Dr Buteyko’s research in the USSR in the 1950’s (with no external verification of the data), and the Brisbane trial of a handful of Pre-selected patients.

Right, then not "every average asthmatic", but average asthmatics in those trials and research works (BTW I have couple more of them with thousands of patients participating). That is more than enough for me to get convinced to try such a trivial and easy approach. Once I had tried the method I stopped to speculate wheather I was convinced or not, because I could see what it did to me. I can call myself "Pre-selected" as well. But also completely cured. The only way the above assertion could be properly proved would be to take a large (10,000 say) sample of random people; to separately screen them for asthma and for hyperventilation; and then to correlate the results.

What an interesting idea, could you elaborate ? How high correlation do you then need ? 99.9% ? Is there anything in medicine about asthma that was proven in that extent ? I am quite happy that I do not need to care any more. I just find it quite amusing how many confused people are talking about a super science and at the same time are involved in conventional therapies which in my opinion reached only the level of quackery. The only common sense and scientific approach I found in Dr. Buteyko method. Every anecdotal report I have seen of people who have been "cured" by Buteyko have been genuine asthma sufferers on a bad drug regime; typically overdosing (uselessly) on Salbutamol (Ventolin) and underdosing on bronchodilators such as Beclamethasone.

Great, so you know them all very well and in person ? I do not remember you. Again, I am reasonably convinced that every asthmatic is a: CHRONIC HYPERVENTILATOR I was one, and maybe you could stop to speculate and try to convince your doctor to get some tests to find it out for yourself.  Vladimir

Response:

Hi I am in US and just heard about this technique.  My girl friend who is India has been suffering from Asthma since she was 14 years old.  She is 25 now.  Nothing so far has helped her and she gets periodic attacks of asthma every now and then.  Does anyone knows any side effect of this therapy.  As long as there is no side effect I don’t mind using this therapy for her.  Please suggest.  Thanks in advance. There is NO documentation that this technique works for ANY of the diseases for which it is recommended.  Have your girlfriend see a doctor. Chris Owens

There is enough documentation. Just do a Web Search with "Buteyko" and "hyperventilation" or "asthma". Obviously certain confused people have problems with the fact that it works, it is for free, and the possible side effects do not seem to be greater than from doing a moderate sport activity. To see a doctor might be a good idea for doing the hyperventilation tests (level of arterial CO2 and the minute volume), because as was shown by many documented tests every average asthmatic is a chronic hyperventilator. To see a doctor will also show if and how confused he/she is. I am sure you and your girlfriend will be able to see yourself what makes sense and what is a brainwashing.  Vladimir

Response:

Hi I am in US and just heard about this technique.  My girl friend who is India has been suffering from Asthma since she was 14 years old.  She is 25 now.  Nothing so far has helped her and she gets periodic attacks of asthma every now and then.  Does anyone knows any side effect of this therapy.  As long as there is no side effect I don’t mind using this therapy for her.  Please suggest.  Thanks in advance.

There is NO documentation that this technique works for ANY of the diseases for which it is recommended.  Have your girlfriend see a doctor. Chris Owens

Response:

Question:

I’m in my thirties, and I’ve been recently diagnosed with asthma.  My doctor prescribed the inhalant Albuterol which has negative side effects (such as faster heartbeat), so I’m looking for alternative treatments.

How about a nice, non-invasive aid? No medicines, no supplements. Did you play a wind instument when you were in school? If so, dig the trumpet or clarinet out of the attic and start practicing again. If not, now is not too late to start. Boehm developed the modern flute as a means to build up ailing respiratory systems. Or sing- a lot, anytime you can, whether or not you are any good. If you are alone in the car, who cares? If music does not interest you at all, consider practicing the breathing exercises associated with yoga, martial arts, or eastern religions. Or, if you’re up for it-do them all, but please check with your health care provider first. (We don’t know about the specifics of your condition which might entail special risks.) S/he probably would not oppose any of these activities as a supplement to treatment, but might take a dim view of them as a replacement, at least until your condition improves. As to the suggestion to build up your aerobic conditioning, that is fine-IF you are not at risk in doing that sort of exercise at this time. In some individuals it may induce asthma attacks, and should be done gradually and only with careful and knowledgeable supervision. Good luck, LC — "I would prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty–to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy." Abraham Lincoln, 1855 Was Abe

Question:

I’m in my thirties, and I’ve been recently diagnosed with asthma.  My doctor prescribed the inhalant Albuterol which has negative side effects (such as faster heartbeat), so I’m looking for alternative treatments. Any suggestions?  Also, any insight on why are so many adults developing asthma these days?

I am in my early 50’s, and developed asthma after being placed on hormone replascement therapy, i.e., Premarin.  I am vegan, and have many food and chemical sensitivities.  This is complicated by the fact that I also have emphysema.  I am on 3 different inhalers and other medication, all of which causes side  effects.  I did go to acupuncture for a couple of years and took herbs, prescribed by my acupuncturist.  It really helped, but finally got so bad that I had to go the Dr. route.  I still combine acupuncture with the medication, hoping that I will improve enough someday that I will be able to get off at least some of the meds. Theory??  LOTS of pollution, from cars, Gulf War, volcanoes, etc, ad nauseum – our air is not clean, our homes and offices are sealed off from fresh air, we live and work in places that are breathing lots of different chemicals, especially if you work in a large building that is clean air environment, and we are developing breathing problems because of it…..      Sharon

Response:

I’m in my thirties, and I’ve been recently diagnosed with asthma.  My doctor prescribed the inhalant Albuterol which has negative side effects (such as faster heartbeat), so I’m looking for alternative treatments.   Any suggestions?  Also, any insight on why are so many adults developing asthma these days?

Response:

I’m in my thirties, and I’ve been recently diagnosed with asthma.  My doctor prescribed the inhalant Albuterol which has negative side effects (such as faster heartbeat), so I’m looking for alternative treatments.  

(1) get yourself in superb aerobic shape. (2) here are some past posts (I’ll send you more privately): Newsgroups: alt.support.asthma Asthma.  I turned 44 in July.  I’ve had asthma since birth.  I’m allergic to a lot of environmentals, as well a lot of foods.   It has made surviving a challenge. We are a nutritionally-oriented association, emphasizing mineral nutrition. Our asthmatic members have reported significant results supressing asthmatic reactions using magnesium aspartate along with pyridoxal-5-phosphate, a metabolite of Vit. B-6. This is an accepted treatment for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Not everyone responded; however, over 75% did. The nutrients used were plain and simple, no additives, and excellent quality control. More expensive than a health food store’s, too! The MgAsp formula was one we commissioned and the P-5-P was from Klaire Labs, Inc. of San Marcos, CA 92069 under their "Vital Life" label. Hope you find the "right stuff" and it works for you. Ask your local apothecary. Ralph Burr, Director The Zeda Association "The Mineral People" Newsgroup: alt.support.asthma I recently read a summary from a scientific journal(1995) suggesting that increased consumption of magnesium is very beneficial for asthmatics–preventing attacks or lessening their severity.  Does anyone have knowledge or experience with taking magnesium?

I started taking magnesium, about three times the RDA, back in February and have been very pleased with the results.  It hasn’t "cured" my asthma (I wish!) but it has enabled me to cut way back on my meds without any increase in attacks.  In fact, I’ve only had three this summer (one a month), and they were very minor, knocked down immediately with a couple puffs of Proventil!  Usually, if I have what I think of as a minor attack I’m in bad shape for a week or more afterwards, prone to further attacks. And I spent my first spring in years without a course of prednisone, but we had a drought so I can’t be sure if it was the dry weather or the magnesium that kept me off pred. Of course, I haven’t yet gone through ragweed and cedar seasons with magnesium.  That will be the real test.  I have high hopes that this Christmas I won’t be on prednisone for the holidays. Laura

Response:

: : I’m in my thirties, and I’ve been recently diagnosed with asthma.  My : doctor prescribed the inhalant Albuterol which has negative side effects : (such as faster heartbeat), so I’m looking for alternative treatments. : Any suggestions? I have a friend who owns some health food stores who claims his asthma, for which he required daily inhalers, completely disappeared within a week of drinking four ounces twice a day of Aloe Vera 10X concentrated juice. I don’t know if it will help you, but for what it’s worth.  A caveat, though, most of the aloe you find in health food stores is diluted so that there is very little of the active ingredient (mucopolysaccharides) in the bottle.  Look for a product containing over 14,000 mg per liter and endorsed by Lee Ritter, who wrote the book on aloe vera. If you can’t find it at local healthfood stores, try New Sun Herbal Products where you can get a liter of guaranteed 10X concentrate w/ 14,000+mg MPS for $26.95, member price.  (This is equivalent to 10 liters of most of the products, only with more MPS.) New Sun has a $20 New Member training kit purchase requirement to qualify for the member prices.  They can be reached at (800) 544-0777.  (Please tell them that Dr. Schmidt referred you!) Email me if you’d like a pricelist for New Sun Products. If you prefer, you can also order it at retail ($35) from HealthNet Nutritionals at (561) 622-6560. — Dr. George Schmidt

Response:

I’m in my thirties, and I’ve been recently diagnosed with asthma.  My doctor prescribed the inhalant Albuterol which has negative side effects (such as faster heartbeat), so I’m looking for alternative treatments.  

I found a large web site on asthma at:   http://www.noah.cuny.edu/asthma/asthma.html Here is the page at: http://pharminfo.com/pubs/msb/mg_asthma.html Dietary Magnesium and Asthma Reprinted from Medical Sciences Bulletin , February 1995, published by Pharmaceutical Information Associates, Ltd. Magnesium is fourth on the list of the most abundant cations in the body (following calcium, sodium, and potassium), and it is second only to potassium as the most abundant intracellular cation. It is an essential cofactor in more than 300 different enzymatic reactions, including carbohydrate utilization, ATP metabolism, muscle contraction, transmembrane ion transport (calcium, sodium, chloride, potassium), and the synthesis of fat, protein, and nucleic acids. Magnesium also appears to play an important role in lung function. In a large study of adults selected randomly from the general population, Britton et al. found that high dietary magnesium intake was independently associated with better lung function and less asthma and wheezing. The investigators calculated dietary magnesium intake (by food frequency questionnaire) and evaluated lung function and atopy in 2633 volunteers aged 18 to 70 years. Lung function was measured as one-second forced-expiratory volume (FEV1) and by airway reactivity to inhaled methacholine. Atopy was measured as skin-prick response to three environmental allergens. Subjects described their respiratory symptoms and gave social, medical, occupational, and smoking histories. Mean magnesium intake was 380 mg/day, although intake varied widely and was significantly lower in females than males. Intake also decreased significantly with increasing age. After adjusting for age, sex, height, and the effects of atopy and smoking, the investigators found that a 100 mg/day higher magnesium intake was associated with a significantly higher FEV1 and a reduction in lung hyperreactivity. Magnesium has several antiasthmatic actions: as a calcium antagonist it relaxes airway smooth muscle (in vitro) and dilates bronchioles (in vivo). It also inhibits cholinergic transmission, increases nitric oxide release, and reduces airway inflammation (by stabilizing mast cells and T- lymphocytes). The investigators concluded, "Low magnesium intake may therefore be involved in the etiology of asthma and chronic obstructive airways disease." Dietary magnesium is obtained from cereals, nuts, green vegetables, and dairy products. However, according to Britton et al., a substantial amount is lost in cooking or in refining foods. Diets high in refined or processed foods are thus likely to be low in magnesium. Magnesium deficiency is surprisingly common. In one study, hypomagnesemia was found in 65% of an intensive care population and 11% of an outpatient population. Magnesium is used pharmacologically in acute myocardial infarction, angina, cardiac arrhythmias, alcohol withdrawal, and pre-eclampsia. It has been used to treat acute asthma, and now it appears that magnesium may also help prevent asthma. (Britton J et al. Lancet. 1994; 344: 357-361. McLean RM. Am J Med. 1994; 96: 63-76.)

Response:

I’m in my thirties, and I’ve been recently diagnosed with asthma.  My doctor prescribed the inhalant Albuterol which has negative side effects (such as faster heartbeat), so I’m looking for alternative treatments.

How about a nice, non-invasive aid? No medicines, no supplements. Did you play a wind instument when you were in school? If so, dig the trumpet or clarinet out of the attic and start practicing again. If not, now is not too late to start. Boehm developed the modern flute as a means to build up ailing respiratory systems. Or sing- a lot, anytime you can, whether or not you are any good. If you are alone in the car, who cares? If music does not interest you at all, consider practicing the breathing exercises associated with yoga, martial arts, or eastern religions. Or, if you’re up for it-do them all, but please check with your health care provider first. (We don’t know about the specifics of your condition which might entail special risks.) S/he probably would not oppose any of these activities as a supplement to treatment, but might take a dim view of them as a replacement, at least until your condition improves. As to the suggestion to build up your aerobic conditioning, that is fine-IF you are not at risk in doing that sort of exercise at this time. In some individuals it may induce asthma attacks, and should be done gradually and only with careful and knowledgeable supervision. Good luck, LC — "I would prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty–to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy." Abraham Lincoln, 1855 Was Abe

Question:

: : Does anyone know if asthma attacks can truely be initiated in the mind? : <snip Well, the night I went into the ER with atrial fib, I guess I must have gotten pretty upset. They were asking me if I was having trouble breathing, but I knew it was my asthma and not my heart causing it. This was the first time I’ve ever had an asthmatic episode due to stress/being upset. I’ve had asthma for 30 years. …Carly…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This was told to me by an eminent allergy consultant … He went to great lengths to isolate and prepare sufficient quantities of a particular allergen to use for provocation testing with a patient. The first test went extremely well and seemed to show a clear link between exposure to the allergen and a response in the patient.  After all his hard work he was very pleased with the result. Just to be sure, he repeated the test with the allergen replaced with an inert control substance.  Exactly the same response from the patient! Further investigation showed that just placing the patient in the room and turning on a pump used in the test was sufficient to trigger an asthma attack.  The patient had been conditioned to respond to the sound of the pump … He told me that in his opinion such a strong psychosomatic reaction is very rare. So there is one anecdotal example of psychosomatic asthma.  

I don’t think it’s an example of psychosomatic asthma.  If the patient had experienced the same procedure a number of times using a bronchoconstrictive substance, he/she could have been physiologically conditioned to react, like Pavlov’s dogs. It’s the same reason that patients undergoing chemotherapy often develop nausea and vomiting on the way to the hospital or clinic where they go to get their chemo. All the best, Elaine Elaine Turner, MD, FACP Allergy and Clinical Immunology

Response:

i believe the term you are looking for is srtess induced asthma.   and yes it is possible. subconciously i can even bring on an asthma attack when faced with a strange/stressful situation.  even though i don’t think of it as being stressful. you need to talk to someone(professional) about your feelings about your future MIL and even your upcomming marriage. of course it just could be her perfume. write me if you have more questions. kathy. kathy. OL Rep for B de F Yarns                                 Bergere de France                       1-800-236-6140 http://www.xmission.com/~arts/bergere/

Response:

Does anyone know if asthma attacks can truely be initiated in the mind? I remember reading a study somewhere that asthmatics developed symptoms when they believed allergens were in the air even though there were not.   I am curious because I have had mild asthma (ventolin twice a day if needed) my whole life and never had serious problems. Now, everytime I go to my fiance’s mother’s house I cannot breathe. I was taken to the hospital once in severe resperatory arrest. After being at this house for a few hours, I have to leave or else I will be in trouble. I initially thought it was some allergen in the air, but we can’t place it. My fiance believes it is in my head because I don’t like being there with his family. Does anyone have any similar experiences or suggestions?   -jen    

Response:

Does anyone know if asthma attacks can truely be initiated in the mind?

<snip My nephew used to get sick every time he and my sister were getting ready to go out of town for vacation or other trips.  He would get so excited (and probably stressed out) that it would bring on a major asthma attack.  It finally got to where she packed and made all the arrangements and told him where they were going when they were walking out the door.   Does this happen when you are around the same relatives in other places, like a restaurant?  Try to meet with his family somewhere else other than the house and see what happens.  It may be something in the building materials or plants in the yard that you might be hypersensitive to and are usually not exposed to. Good luck.  Let us know how your sleuthing comes out. Donna

Response:

Does anyone know if asthma attacks can truely be initiated in the mind?

Yes and no.  Stress all by itself will not cause you to develop asthma. However, stress can be a powerful trigger for an underlying asthmatic condition. No! It’s not all in your mind.  Some people use the fact that stress can trigger an attack to "prove" that asthma is some kind of mental condition.  Wrong.  It’s the lungs, not the mind. Also, don’t be so quick to discount an airborne allergy or other trigger. Just because your fiance doesn’t notice it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.  Perhaps you could pre-medicate the next time you go to visit his parents. BTW, I wouldn’t like visiting someone if I had an attack every time I visited them, either.  Does this occur even if you see them at another location? Kathy Nicklas-Varraso

Response:

Does this happen when you are around the same relatives in other places, like a restaurant?

Come to think of it, I was on vacation with them to Martha’s Vineyard once when I had an attack. We drove around their car most of the time, so the allergen could be there too.  I was thinking it could be hay? My fiance’s sister works in a horse barn. My nephew used to get sick every time he and my sister were getting ready to go out of town for vacation or other trips.  He would get so excited (and probably stressed out) that it would bring on a major asthma attack.

This used to happen to me as well, I couldn’t go to slumber parties because I couldn’t breathe in the middle of the night. Thanks. I’ll be seeing the family this weekend. Wish me luck! -jen

Response:

Does anyone know if asthma attacks can truely be initiated in the mind?

This was told to me by an eminent allergy consultant … He went to great lengths to isolate and prepare sufficient quantities of a particular allergen to use for provocation testing with a patient. The first test went extremely well and seemed to show a clear link between exposure to the allergen and a response in the patient.  After all his hard work he was very pleased with the result. Just to be sure, he repeated the test with the allergen replaced with an inert control substance.  Exactly the same response from the patient! Further investigation showed that just placing the patient in the room and turning on a pump used in the test was sufficient to trigger an asthma attack.  The patient had been conditioned to respond to the sound of the pump … He told me that in his opinion such a strong psychosomatic reaction is very rare. So there is one anecdotal example of psychosomatic asthma.  However, I suspect that nearly all diagnoses of psychosomatic asthma by non-specialists are likely to be asthma with an unidentified physical trigger.  That certainly seemed to be the case when I was a child!   Being told by a doctor that the cause of asthma attacks is "all in the mind" is rarely of any use. It also suggests to some that the cause of the asthma attacks may be under conscious control which I suspect is highly unlikely! I never believed that my asthma was psychosomatic but I was over forty when I had the first tentative identification of the allergen, fungal spores from Didymella exitialis.  These spores can be released in vast quantities during thunderstorms.  The "easy" diagnosis would be psychosomatic asthma triggered by a (presumably repressed) fear of thunderstorms.  However, it’s difficult to explain how that fear would be absent except in July and August Regards —

Response:

To all…and especially Kathy Nicklas-Varraso I did not see the original post. I saw just the words as they were… out of context if you will..and not your intent behind them…and so I jumped in with guns blazing like the idiot that I am… My apologies, Mitch   Regards to all. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No! It’s not all in your mind.  Some people use the fact that stress can trigger an attack to "prove" that asthma is some kind of mental condition.  Wrong.  It’s the lungs, not the mind. Not all that long ago, unthinking, narrow and ignorant people believed that the condition, now known as asthma, was not real. Scientific evidence was all but non existant because there was no need to investigate something that everyone in the know, knew as fake. Even as society became aware of the sheer number of asthma cases, money was not spent in research. Why? Because experts argued that it was a mental condition – it was not real. Early experiments even supported this theory. People died. To keep this post from getting overlong I’ll jump many years to when the inhaler came into widespread use. Asthma by then was shown to be a "real" condition. Children and adults alike, however, hid their asthma. They were ashamed to be seen using their inhalers, and felt that they were outside mainstream society. They could not participate in sports and outdoor activities. They were 2nd class citizens in a world that did not understand their problem and considered them weak, lazy, fakers… Today asthma is better understood by both those who suffer and those who don’t. As a result research funds are up, treatment is improving and once closed doors are open in jobs, activities and social interactions. Research has proven "stress" as a trigger and has shown significant instances of asthma in people with reflux oesophagitiss, Panic Disorder and Depression…. but Asthma is a real diagnosable and treatable disease. I define a disease as something that significantly affects quality of life for a period of time. Asthma is therefore a disease. A mental condition also affects quality of life and must also be considered a disease. The brain is an organ as much as a lung..yet research on mental health is poor, people who have got mental diseases are considered 2nd class citizens, people die…<you get the picture!! In 1996 a post to this support group (see top) says stress triggered asthma is sometimes used as "an attack to "prove" that asthma is some kind of mental condition" and that… "It’s not all in your mind." …and further goes on to state that "It’s the lungs, not the mind" <sigh Regards to all, Mitch. aka Mitch from PCS, P.O. Box 206   |  the daughter Moreland, Victoria, AUSTRALIA 3058 |  of time." Aardvark Internet Tel: 03 9886 3800|  (c) Anon

aka Mitch from PCS, P.O. Box 206   |  the daughter Moreland, Victoria, AUSTRALIA 3058 |  of time." Aardvark Internet Tel: 03 9886 3800|  (c) Anon

Response:

No! It’s not all in your mind.  Some people use the fact that stress can trigger an attack to "prove" that asthma is some kind of mental condition.  Wrong.  It’s the lungs, not the mind.

Not all that long ago, unthinking, narrow and ignorant people believed that the condition, now known as asthma, was not real. Scientific evidence was all but non existant because there was no need to investigate something that everyone in the know, knew as fake. Even as society became aware of the sheer number of asthma cases, money was not spent in research. Why? Because experts argued that it was a mental condition – it was not real. Early experiments even supported this theory. People died. To keep this post from getting overlong I’ll jump many years to when the inhaler came into widespread use. Asthma by then was shown to be a "real" condition. Children and adults alike, however, hid their asthma. They were ashamed to be seen using their inhalers, and felt that they were outside mainstream society. They could not participate in sports and outdoor activities. They were 2nd class citizens in a world that did not understand their problem and considered them weak, lazy, fakers… Today asthma is better understood by both those who suffer and those who don’t. As a result research funds are up, treatment is improving and once closed doors are open in jobs, activities and social interactions. Research has proven "stress" as a trigger and has shown significant instances of asthma in people with reflux oesophagitiss, Panic Disorder and Depression…. but Asthma is a real diagnosable and treatable disease. I define a disease as something that significantly affects quality of life for a period of time. Asthma is therefore a disease. A mental condition also affects quality of life and must also be considered a disease. The brain is an organ as much as a lung..yet research on mental health is poor, people who have got mental diseases are considered 2nd class citizens, people die…<you get the picture!! In 1996 a post to this support group (see top) says stress triggered asthma is sometimes used as "an attack to "prove" that asthma is some kind of mental condition"  and that… "It’s not all in your mind." …and further goes on to state that "It’s the lungs, not the mind" <sigh Regards to all, Mitch. aka Mitch from PCS, P.O. Box 206   |  the daughter Moreland, Victoria, AUSTRALIA 3058 |  of time." Aardvark Internet Tel: 03 9886 3800|  (c) Anon

Response:

Be careful folks.  Asthma attacks may be triggered by stress but please never give a person with asthma a reason to feel that they will be called crazy for seeking help. I ended up in intensive care once because I was afraid that nothing was really wrong – that it was a stress reaction – not real – psychosomatic – call it what you will… BELIEVE ME – IT’S REAL – AND IT CAN KILL IF YOU DON’T RESPECT IT! Sharon Krantz

Response:

I believe it is important to distinguish between the illness and the response to the illness.  Asthma is absolutely, 100%, biologically based illess which has NO psychological component any more than a cold has a psychological component.  I agree that one’s response to a

That is completely crap.  To say that asthma has NO psychological component suggests you have never experienced the fear that increases the difficulty you have in breathing when a major, emergency room requiring attack is underway.   If you have never experienced an increase in your difficulties breathing due to emotional stress in your life, you deserve a medal, you handle stress better than anyone I have ever met. If you have NEVER ever reached for an inhaler when you didn’t really need it, you deserve another medal. If you NEVER used your asthma as an *excuse*, even as a child, then you deserve to stand at the top of the podium. YES, asthma is a biologically based disease.  It is not a mental illness – it is not a 100% psychosomatic disease.  MOST hyperresponsiveness in asthmatic lungs is caused an environmental factor – not "emotions".  BUT, please remember, emotions trigger biological responses – those biological responses can influence the chemical substances that cause the hyperresponsiveness in asthmatic lungs.   I am not responsible for the fact that I am an asthmatic. However, I am responsible for it’s control.  I am responsible for seeing that the world does not make me physically ill as often as I can.  I am responsible for understanding my emotions about having this disease and how that influences my control of the disease.   Yes, I agree, we need to fight stereotypes concerning asthma. Every time they are portrayed on TV, I cringe.  It’s always some wimpy kid with no friends who has a bunch of social problems.  Well, that arises from the fact that asthmatic children often are sick alot from school and restricted from some activities at school – and that does set them apart and make it more difficult for them socially at school.  However, the stereotype in the media is extreme.   To deny that how a person "feels" about themselves doesn’t contribute to their physical well-being is crap.  While I don’t know about asthma studies on this – there is tons of literature on how cancer patients patients do better if the pysche is also cared for.  All chronic and long-term illnesses have an emotional component.  Diabetes, cancer, AIDS, cystic fibrous, MS, etc. So, for all you out there who say "emotions" aren’t important to asthma, get a grip on reality. — Kathie Sindt

Response:

I’m sorry that i caused such an emotional reaction in you, but in all honesty, i think you missed my point.  I was NOT saying that one’s emotions aren’t important, rather, i was pointing out that it is important to distinguish between one’s emotional response to a problem (cause) and the effect.   As a person who has, and is currently, going through group therapy i find it extremely important to my personal well being to be able to distinguish between those things which are external to me (the biological illness) and those which are internal to me (my response to the illness).  I think that it is VERY important for those of us who have asthma and allergies (or anyone with a chronic illness) to learn to distinguish between the two so that we can apply ourselves to gaining as much control over our lives as possible by applying the appropriate response to each. … jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe it is important to distinguish between the illness and the response to the illness.  Asthma is absolutely, 100%, biologically based illess which has NO psychological component any more than a cold has a psychological component.  I agree that one’s response to a That is completely crap.  To say that asthma has NO psychological component suggests you have never experienced the fear that increases the difficulty you have in breathing when a major, emergency room requiring attack is underway.   If you have never experienced an increase in your difficulties breathing due to emotional stress in your life, you deserve a medal, you handle stress better than anyone I have ever met. If you have NEVER ever reached for an inhaler when you didn’t really need it, you deserve another medal. If you NEVER used your asthma as an *excuse*, even as a child, then you deserve to stand at the top of the podium. YES, asthma is a biologically based disease.  It is not a mental illness – it is not a 100% psychosomatic disease.  MOST hyperresponsiveness in asthmatic lungs is caused an environmental factor – not "emotions".  BUT, please remember, emotions trigger biological responses – those biological responses can influence the chemical substances that cause the hyperresponsiveness in asthmatic lungs.   I am not responsible for the fact that I am an asthmatic. However, I am responsible for it’s control.  I am responsible for seeing that the world does not make me physically ill as often as I can.  I am responsible for understanding my emotions about having this disease and how that influences my control of the disease.   Yes, I agree, we need to fight stereotypes concerning asthma. Every time they are portrayed on TV, I cringe.  It’s always some wimpy kid with no friends who has a bunch of social problems.  Well, that arises from the fact that asthmatic children often are sick alot from school and restricted from some activities at school – and that does set them apart and make it more difficult for them socially at school.  However, the stereotype in the media is extreme.   To deny that how a person "feels" about themselves doesn’t contribute to their physical well-being is crap.  While I don’t know about asthma studies on this – there is tons of literature on how cancer patients patients do better if the pysche is also cared for.  All chronic and long-term illnesses have an emotional component.  Diabetes, cancer, AIDS, cystic fibrous, MS, etc. So, for all you out there who say "emotions" aren’t important to asthma, get a grip on reality. — Kathie Sindt

Response:

I believe it is important to distinguish between the illness and the response to the illness.  Asthma is absolutely, 100%, biologically based illess which has NO psychological component any more than a cold has a psychological component.  I agree that one’s response to a situation is a matter of the psyche but i think it is very important that we don’t re-inforce sterotypes concerning Asthma. Personally, i think we have problems enough making our way through a world that makes us physically ill, i don’t think we want the added burden of guilt that we’re responsible for this illness, i.e., that all we need is an attitude adjustment or that we’re looking for sympathy or that we want others to take on our burdens for us.  The illusion that asthma is psychosomatic belongs to those who don’t have the illness, let us not spread their illusions. … jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t believe in psychosomatic asthma.  I have yet to see an illness that is in your mind kill you by suffocation. However it’s labeled, there is an emotional component to asthma and the severity and frequency of attacks in some individuals… It’s not a sign of "mental instability" or a sign of weakness…it is simply that the body reacts to the chemical changes in the body brought about by stress, increasing the susceptibility to problems with asthma…. Later, Deb…. No, Who’s on third….

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Milner) writes: However it’s labeled, there is an emotional component to asthma and the severity and frequency of attacks in some individuals… It’s not a sign of "mental instability" or a sign of weakness…it is simply that the body reacts to the chemical changes in the body brought about by stress, increasing the susceptibility to problems with asthma…. I have often seen this fact stated and quoted and I know of anectdotal reports of emotions triggering an asthma attack, but can anyone show any true references to this connection?  I wonder if the link between stress and asthma is a chicken and egg kind of question.  It’s stressing to not be able to catch your breath.

Agreed.  And I would also like some better proof than anecdotal evidence. But when I was an undergrad, my asthma went in approximately three-month cycles, with the bad times perfectly correlated with exam period.  And somehow I doubt that the exams were brought about by my shortness of breath! Pat —

Response:

Hi RJ,

: I don’t believe in psychosomatic asthma.  I have yet to see an illness : that is in your mind kill you by suffocation. I also have yet to see anybody who is able to say, "well, I think I’m going to turn myself blue and suffocate tomorrow afternoon" ! Seriously though, if you have been diagnosed with asthma, you have asthma.  I think the emotional component that has been discussed is related more to being unable to breathe than actually having emotions cause an attack. Did anybody here watch "Hand that rocks the cradle ?"  - what did you think of the character with asthma ? Amber

Response:

I don’t believe in psychosomatic asthma.  I have yet to see an illness that is in your mind kill you by suffocation.

However it’s labeled, there is an emotional component to asthma and the severity and frequency of attacks in some individuals… It’s not a sign of "mental instability" or a sign of weakness…it is simply that the body reacts to the chemical changes in the body brought about by stress, increasing the susceptibility to problems with asthma…. Later, Deb…. No, Who’s on third….

Response:

Milner) writes: However it’s labeled, there is an emotional component to asthma and the severity and frequency of attacks in some individuals… It’s not a sign of "mental instability" or a sign of weakness…it is simply that the body reacts to the chemical changes in the body brought about by stress, increasing the susceptibility to problems with asthma….

I have often seen this fact stated and quoted and I know of anectdotal reports of emotions triggering an asthma attack, but can anyone show any true references to this connection?  I wonder if the link between stress and asthma is a chicken and egg kind of question.  It’s stressing to not be able to catch your breath.

Response:

I don’t believe in psychosomatic asthma.  I have yet to see an illness that is in your mind kill you by suffocation.

Response:

 I don’t believe in psychosomatic asthma.  I have yet to see an illness  that is in your mind kill you by suffocation.

The juxtaposition of the word psychosomatic and any illness is bound to trigger anger and resentment among sufferers of the disease.  The most painfull interpretation is that the disease is "all in the mind". For an infinitesimal group of neurotic inviduals, the state of mind is the causal root (they imagine that they have the illness and therefore create/mimic the symptoms). But for the rest of us, there is a genetic predisposition and/or an environmental root that sets the stage for the chronic disease, and mental state is just one of the many factors in the state of the illness. There is a significant link between mind and body. In many chronic illnesses, observers can sometimes see a relationship between mental state and exacerbations of the symptoms. That doesn’t mean that the mental state is at the root of the illness, nor does it mean that the mental state is entirely separate. Often it is impossible to tell whether stress triggered a particular exacerbation or the whether the exacerbation triggered the stress. For chronic asthmatics, it goes both ways. These are probably the most common links of the disease to the mental state of the patient, and hardly equate to some notion of "imagined illness". Probably the most common misuse of the phrase "psychosomatic asthma", though, is when some casual (insensitive) observer does not believe that the sufferer’s symptoms are real. They’re basically saying "If you believe that you can’t breathe but I believe that you can, then your asthma is in your mind." A good bout of acute asthma may be the only way to get these knuckleheads to reform their attitudes. But I wouldn’t even wish it upon them. — Mark Feblowitz,   GTE Laboratories Inc., 40 Sylvan Rd.  Waltham, MA 02254

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However you label it, when I was very stressed (change of job, loss of relationship, etc) my asthma was severe to the point of 6 puffs of Becloforte plus ingested drugs a day (that is the equal of 30 puffs of Beclovent). My life has changed in the past 7 months and I’m now down to two puffs a day, no attacks and still reducing. John, Toronto

Dear    John,         In dealing with people with breathing difficulties I have often seen that the psychsomatic causes of the problem needs to be dealt with before the individuals can actually breathe better.         Have you thought of looking beyond the llimitations o the medical establishment to some alternative method of not only treaing asthma but maybe even curing it. I have been teaching people how to breathe for 26 years now and have to say I have seen people dissolve some rather serious breathing disorders. It only takes some good breath training and then perhaps 20 minutes a day of regular breathing exercise to permanently  cure the problem.  The medical association may not admit to this because it is not yet part of there education, but I will attach here one letter from one of my last years students. Dave To whom it concerns,         My wife and I both participated in a yoga workshop led by Dave Goulet during a two week period in January 1995 in Mexico. This was an unplanned event from our perspective.         I am now 49 years old and have experienced chronic asthma since 2 years of age. My parents who live in Montreal will confirm this fact. ( tel: 514 683-****). David’s course taught me how to breathe properly and I am ecstatic to relate that I no longer experience asthma. I would be happy to speak with anyone at any place to relate my experience. Each day for a period of 30 minutes I practice breathing exercises as a maintenance program.         I am strongly recommending Dave Goulet for his knowledge, teachings, and dedication to his work.                                                                 yours truly,                                                                 Bob Daniels Dave Goulet, Director of:= CREATIVE HEALTH INSTITUTE voice:604 472-8496         1819 Hillcrest Ave.         http://vvv.com/bizvic/chi/

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My observation is that stress aggravates any chronic condition.   I, also, think maybe that "stress" tabs (B vitamins) help asthma because they reduce the effects of stress on asthma. Regardless of the degree of stress I am under, allergins induce asthma.  They induce it less severly when I am not under stress or when I am taking B vitamins but am under stress but they still have a definite effect. | My wife and I both had asthma as kids. Our second child has asthmatic | tendencies that have slowly gone away as he’s gotten older. (now almost | 7). | | It was striking to note that when my wife was under stress, Norman’s | asthma would flare up. This would in turn further stress out (for good | reason) my wife, which would further aggravate Norman’s situation. | | This seemed to be independent of housekeeping, seasons, foods, etc. | | The best thing we’ve done for Norman’s asthma has been to accept it and | live with it without getting alarmed. We give him his medicine, if needed, | then all of us go about our normal activiites. Seems like he does a lot | better this way. | | A side benefit is that Norman is not growing up the "Momma’s boy" that I | was and therefore has it much easier with his peers than I did. | | I can’t generalize all of this to others with asthma. I also want to | emphasize that his asthma was real. Yes, stress and psychology may have | had a major influence on my son’s lungs, but his symptoms were real and | not just made up; in fact, he required hospitalization when he was two. | | — — Judy E. Stephens    |                             |           Dayton, Ohio  45401 |                             |    …!uccba!mead!judys

Response:

My wife and I both had asthma as kids. Our second child has asthmatic tendencies that have slowly gone away as he’s gotten older. (now almost 7). It was striking to note that when my wife was under stress, Norman’s asthma would flare up. This would in turn further stress out (for good reason) my wife, which would further aggravate Norman’s situation. This seemed to be independent of housekeeping, seasons, foods, etc. The best thing we’ve done for Norman’s asthma has been to accept it and live with it without getting alarmed. We give him his medicine, if needed, then all of us go about our normal activiites. Seems like he does a lot better this way. A side benefit is that Norman is not growing up the "Momma’s boy" that I was and therefore has it much easier with his peers than I did. I can’t generalize all of this to others with asthma. I also want to emphasize that his asthma was real. Yes, stress and psychology may have had a major influence on my son’s lungs, but his symptoms were real and not just made up; in fact, he required hospitalization when he was two. —

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] writes: } }Does anyone know if asthma attacks can truely be initiated in the mind? }I remember reading a study somewhere that asthmatics developed symptoms }when they believed allergens were in the air even though there were not.   }I am curious because I have had mild asthma (ventolin twice a day if needed) }my whole life and never had serious problems. Now, everytime I go to my }fiance’s mother’s house I cannot breathe. I was taken to the hospital once in }severe resperatory arrest. After being at this house for a few hours, I have to }leave or else I will be in trouble. I initially thought it was some allergen in the air, }but we can’t place it. My fiance believes it is in my head because I don’t like }being there with his family. }Does anyone have any similar experiences or suggestions?   }-jen     }

your husband may be right……sorta…… an emotional stress (like one which one goes to aberant inlaws) could start a hormonal process that could exacerbate an otherwise mild condition. On the other hand when one is sensitive to allergens, perhaps there is something in the house that could trigger it. Aaaahhhh, here’s an easy test….Take your in lawout law mom out to lunch at a patio restaurant….If you get the same reaction, then she is bad news…well that is if the local flowers aren’t shedding. If it is the house, then look around for….. – animals – poor housekeeping practices ( but for gods sake, don’t say anything (;-() – mold on windows eg bathroom – type of heating systemventilation – new furniture, cupboards etc….maybe even new paint somewhere. you know what they say about stress….. when you can’t get away from it, find ways to deal with it…… some insensative husband you have…sorry bout that hope it helps some…even with the little humor. regards tom c.

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: Be careful folks.  Asthma attacks may be triggered by stress but : please never give a person with asthma a reason to feel that they will : be called crazy for seeking help. : I ended up in intensive care once because I was afraid that nothing : was really wrong – that it was a stress reaction – not real – : psychosomatic – call it what you will… : BELIEVE ME – IT’S REAL – AND IT CAN KILL IF YOU DON’T RESPECT IT! : Sharon Krantz I agree.  As a teacher, I deal with administrators and others who assume their students are faking an attack.  One administrator felt strongly that the three asthmatic girls in her school were having stress reactions, not something in need of attention. I deal with stupid and inane behaviours in the school system regularly.  Once, I intervened because a teacher had put a student close to the staff room photocopier (a source of fumes to which this child was allergic) because the teacher did not want a potential attack to disrupt the final exam in progress in her classroom. I’ve seen too many kids treated as if the asthma is a psychological condition not as a medical issue.  Some teachers think these children should be under hospital care and not in the classroom.  I have no problems adapting the environment and teaching for children with athsma.  I once went to the trouble of switching rooms with another class so that a student of mine could get away from the fumes that triggered attacks.  To me, making such changes are part of my job as a teacher, and are not a problem. I’ve seen too many children who become afraid of being assertive, sometimes denying themselves medication or hanging around trigger situations because their school and peers have made them feel like it’s in their heads. Scott

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Be careful folks.  Asthma attacks may be triggered by stress but : please never give a person with asthma a reason to feel that they will : be called crazy for seeking help. : I ended up in intensive care once because I was afraid that nothing : was really wrong – that it was a stress reaction – not real – : psychosomatic – call it what you will… : BELIEVE ME – IT’S REAL – AND IT CAN KILL IF YOU DON’T RESPECT IT! : Sharon Krantz I agree.  As a teacher, I deal with administrators and others who assume their students are faking an attack.  One administrator felt strongly that the three asthmatic girls in her school were having stress reactions, not something in need of attention. I deal with stupid and inane behaviours in the school system regularly.  Once, I intervened because a teacher had put a student close to the staff room photocopier (a source of fumes to which this child was allergic) because the teacher did not want a potential attack to disrupt the final exam in progress in her classroom. I’ve seen too many kids treated as if the asthma is a psychological condition not as a medical issue.  Some teachers think these children should be under hospital care and not in the classroom.  I have no problems adapting the environment and teaching for children with athsma.  I once went to the trouble of switching rooms with another class so that a student of mine could get away from the fumes that triggered attacks.  To me, making such changes are part of my job as a teacher, and are not a problem. I’ve seen too many children who become afraid of being assertive, sometimes denying themselves medication or hanging around trigger situations because their school and peers have made them feel like it’s in their heads. Scott

        Or because they realize that for what ever reasons every time they have an obviouse attake around there teachers and pears, there teachers freek and there pears get scared and avoid them. Tends to put a real damper on ones sochail life. Man if I had a ten spot for every time I was grabed by a teacher and told "You cant do that you could have an asthma attack and die"  I wouldnt need aid for school. Its realy rather frightning for a child in the 5-10 range getting told that they could die. — Elf-Kin -Every inch of me that is not carnivorous is 100% vegitarian.

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Question:

        Asthma meds fall under two catagories -Amphetamins and beta-steriods (or such).

This is completely incorrect.  Amphetamines are not used to treat asthma.   Asthma meds could be classified a number of ways, but it is useful to think of them as bronchodilators and anti-inflammatories.  Bronchodilators include the various beta-2-agonists (albuteral, salmeterol, and others), which are all derivatives of adrenalin (epinephrine); theophylline, and ipatroprium bromide (Atrovent).  Anti-inflammatories include corticosteroids (inhaled, oral and parenteral), cromolyn (Intal) and nedocromil (Tilade).  The latter two work principally by inhibiting mast cell degranulation. To answer the question about behavior, all the bonchodilators, with the possible exception of Atrovent (which could potentially cause tachycardia), can cause jitteryness, a fine tremor and a feeling of nervousness as side effects.  Corticosteroids when taken by mouth or intravenously can also cause mood changes in some people.  These mood changes can vary both in character and intensity from person to person. — All the best, Elaine Elaine Turner, MD, FACP Allergy and Clinical Immunology

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I’m interested in comments from parents of asthmatic children regarding the behavioral effects of asthma.  …… He is also highly gifted, but his behavior shows a lot of similarities with ADHD children (two psychologists and a psychiatrist as well as all his teachers say he is not; his asthma doc thinks he is, but then he generally sees him when he’s on an incredible cocktail of meds ). …..

We have three gifted kids. Someone referred us to a great book, Parenting the Active, Alert Child (or something very close to that title – somebody borrowed the book and didn’t return it). It’s one of the best books on child rearing I’ve read. Real smart kids can be a handful, with or without asthma. The author, a psychologist, draws a clear distinction between what she calls the "active, alert child" and a kid with ADD. Sorry to be hazy on the title. It has a lurid, yellow cover and can be found in the child-rearing section of any bookstore. —

Response:

   Asthma meds fall under two catagories -Amphetamins and beta-steriods (or such). Amphetamins act simalurly to adrenalin and do make one hyper.

Well, not exactly.  Quoting from the alt.support.asthma FAQ:  Asthma — General Information, there are actually six categories:      "   – steroidal anti-inflammatories,          - non-steroidal anti-inflammatories,          - beta-agonists,          - xanthines,          - anticholinergics, and          - anti-allergics.      The first two categories of drug treat the underlying      inflammation of the lung.  All steroidal anti-inflammatories      are glucocorticosteroids, which are entirely different from the      anabolic steroids that have become notorious for their abuse      by athletes.  There are many different corticosteroids available      for the treatment of asthma, almost all available via inhaler      to reduce the amount of side effects (see section 2.2.6).  The      non-steroidal anti-inflammatories currently available are      nedocromil sodium and cromolyn sodium, though cromolyn sodium      is perhaps more properly known as a mast cell stabilizer, since      it blocks both the release of histamine and inflammatory      mediators, which means that although it blocks the inflammatory      response, it cannot reverse inflammation once it has taken place.      For this reason, I have classed it as an anti-allergic since it      is mostly commonly taken for asthma that has a strong allergy      component.      The second two classes of asthma medications, beta-agonists and      xanthines, are both bronchodilators.  Beta-agonists are      chemically related to adrenalin.  They are usually taken in      inhaled form, and all but one (salmeterol) are short-acting.      The major xanthine, theophylline, is present in tea,      and is taken orally.  Theophylline is chemically related to      caffeine, since caffeine is also a xanthine derivative.      Anticholinergics, the fourth class of medication, work by      blocking the contraction of the underlying smooth muscle of      the bronchi.  Although used to treat asthma in Canada, the      anticholinergic ipratropium bromide (Atrovent) has not approved      by the US Food and Drug Administration for the treatment of      asthma, but is used for the treatment of COPD.      (It is interesting to note, however, that in the April 1982      issue of The FDA Drug Bulletin, the FDA states that "the      FD&C Act does not, however, limit the manner in which a      physician may use an approved drug.  Once a product has been      approved for marketing, a physician may prescribe it for uses      or in treatment regimens or patient populations that are not      included in a approved labeling."  The FD&C Act is the Food,      Drug, and Cosmetic Act.)      The last class, the anti-allergics, has been included because      the two anti-allergic drugs, cromolyn sodium and ketotifen, are      commonly taken for the prevention of allergic asthma.  Cromolyn      sodium is a mast cell stabilizer — it blocks the release of      histamine from mast cells, which acts to prevent asthma flares      since histamine is a very strong bronchoconstrictor.  However,      it isn’t considered an antihistamine because it cannot prevent      the effects of histamine once the histamine has been released      from the cell.  Similarly, it blocks the release of inflammatory      mediators from the mast cell, and so prevents the inflammatory      response, although it cannot reverse inflammation once the      mediators have been released.  Ketotifen fumarate (Zaditen),      a non-sedating antihistamine used mostly for the treatment of      pediatric allergic asthma, is not currently available in the      United States." Pat Disclaimer:  I am not a doctor, just a reasonably well-informed              asthmatic.  This posting should not be construed as              medical advice. —

Response:

I’m wondering what the relation is between his allergies/asthma/medications and behavior. I can remember when he was a preschooler with an acute asthma flareup and the medication had him literally running around in circles and sleeping for two hours a night. He doesn’t do that now, but I do note an increase in behavioral problems at school (irritable outbursts, distractibility with things he’s bored with) during peak allergy seasons each spring and fall.  

Some asthma medications (beta agonists, theophylline)can cause jitteryness and irritability.  But I’d be irritable too if the pollen was making my eyes and throat itchy, my nose stuffy, and my chest tight. — All the best, Elaine Elaine Turner, MD, FACP Allergy and Clinical Immunology

Response:

I’m interested in comments from parents of asthmatic children regarding the behavioral effects of asthma. I have a twelve year old who developed asthma at nine months of age which is reasonably well controlled with allergy shots,  Volmax, Aerobid, Intal, and Ventolin , plus prednisone bursts when needed. He is also highly gifted, but his behavior shows a lot of similarities with ADHD children (two psychologists and a psychiatrist as well as all his teachers say he is not; his asthma doc thinks he is, but then he generally sees him when he’s on an incredible cocktail of meds ). I’m wondering what the relation is between his allergies/asthma/medications and behavior. I can remember when he was a preschooler with an acute asthma flareup and the medication had him literally running around in circles and sleeping for two hours a night. He doesn’t do that now, but I do note an increase in behavioral problems at school (irritable outbursts, distractibility with things he’s bored with) during peak allergy seasons each spring and fall.  Sometimes he’s on increased meds; sometimes not. I’ve read books linking  asthma,. ADHD, manic-depression, alcoholism and diabetes to a common supposed metabolic imbalance causing brain swelling. What are your thoughts?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m interested in comments from parents of asthmatic children regarding the behavioral effects of asthma. I have a twelve year old who developed asthma at nine months of age which is reasonably well controlled with allergy shots,  Volmax, Aerobid, Intal, and Ventolin , plus prednisone bursts when needed. He is also highly gifted, but his behavior shows a lot of similarities with ADHD children (two psychologists and a psychiatrist as well as all his teachers say he is not; his asthma doc thinks he is, but then he generally sees him when he’s on an incredible cocktail of meds ). I’m wondering what the relation is between his allergies/asthma/medications and behavior. I can remember when he was a preschooler with an acute asthma flareup and the medication had him literally running around in circles and sleeping for two hours a night. He doesn’t do that now, but I do note an increase in behavioral problems at school (irritable outbursts, distractibility with things he’s bored with) during peak allergy seasons each spring and fall.  Sometimes he’s on increased meds; sometimes not. I’ve read books linking  asthma,. ADHD, manic-depression, alcoholism and diabetes to a common supposed metabolic imbalance causing brain swelling. What are your thoughts?

        Asthma meds fall under two catagories -Amphetamins and beta-steriods (or such). Amphetamins act simalurly to adrenalin and do make one hyper. As far as the brain swelling thing goes I dont know. I do know that pete-male psezers, exspechaly when they occure frequently or very frequently completly mimic the symptoms of ADHA ( A spaced look twitching of hands and feet, loosing track of whats going on ) and are oftain mis diagnosed as ADHA initaly. This is from personal experiance, I was lucky enufe that they never actualy put me on ritlin but know someone who was on ritlin for over a year befor he was properly diagnosed. — Elf-Kin -Every inch of me that is not carnivorous is 100% vegitarian.

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writes: But by far the majority of these studies [if not almost all of them] deal with one of two groups of patients: – those whose asthma is STABLE; or – those in MILD to MODERATELY SEVERE attacks. Most of the studies that deal with people in acute attacks specifically exclude patients who are in a severe attack.

I said "if used properly with a spacer" precisely because of that.  If you cannot hold your breath for 5-10 seconds because of the severity of your asthmatic attack an inhaler is not going to work and a nebulizer will work better.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry, I can’t find the post right now, but someone posted that nebulizers deliver more medication because there is 10-12 times as much medication in them.   It is true that the usual adult dose of albuteral placed in a nebulizer is 2.5 mg as opposed to 180 ug contained in two puffs from an albuteral metered dose inhaler (MDI).  However, the reason for this is that MDI’s are actually 4-5 times MORE efficient at delivering the medication in particle sizes that reach the lower airways.  The amount of medication that actually reaches the airways by either method is <10% of the amount which exits the device in question.  Within that limit, the amount a patient actually receives can vary enormously depending on quite a number of variables. Assuming optimal use of each device, however, the amount of bronchodilation achieved with an inhaled beta agonist bronchodilator is comparable with the two methods.

I thought that nebulized bronchodilators had the advantage that the medication is delivered over time, so that the bronchi dilate while the dose is still being delivered, and the latter part of the medication thus has a chance to reach further into the lungs than if the entire dose was given at once. Pat Disclaimer:  I am not a doctor, just a reasonably well-informed              asthmatic.  This posting should not be construed as              medical advice. —

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cut  …Also, I find that asthmatics who use nebuizers on a regular basis often either feel quite restricted in where they can go or else become a little neurotic in terms of never wanting to be away from their nebulizer. The botton line is this for me in my practice: I only prescribe home nebulizers for those who have difficulty using inhalers — either because of hand-lung coordination or for other reasons.  For those patients they’re fine.

cut Elaine Turner, M.D., F.A.C.P

Elain: You should be aware of the portable nebulizers. When our daughter was too young to coordinate a MDI, we felt "trapped". couldn’t let ourselves get a 1/2 hour away from a plug. Then we got our portable–Weee!!— hikes, camping, airplane rides to Hawaii, long drives. They come in different sizes and costs. Ours was pretty clunkey and heavy but we loved it anyway (well—some curseing about a sore shoulder from the strap on longer hikes). — Looking forward:

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: (Patricia Rose Wrean) writes: : I thought that nebulized bronchodilators had the advantage that the : medication is delivered over time, so that the bronchi dilate while : the dose is still being delivered, and the latter part of the medication : thus has a chance to reach further into the lungs than if the entire : dose was given at once. : Studies have shown that an inhaler used properly with a spacer device has : the equivalent effectiveness of a nebulized treatment. But by far the majority of these studies [if not almost all of them] deal with one of two groups of patients: – those whose asthma is STABLE; or – those in MILD to MODERATELY SEVERE attacks. Most of the studies that deal with people in acute attacks specifically exclude patients who are in a severe attack. Further, it has generally beeen found that there must be a dose ratio of multiple MDI with spacer inhalation comparing to one typical nebulizer treatment [the actual ratio varies from study to study]. Also of course, depending on what other symptoms are present, a mask/nebulizer treatment may work better for a particular patient, or at particular times; of course, some patients will respond betetr to one form of the drug or another as well [just as some respond better to Proventil versus Ventolin, etc...]. DC.

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: Sorry, I can’t find the post right now, but someone posted that nebulizers : deliver more medication because there is 10-12 times as much medication in : them.   Actually, that is not exactly what I said.  What I did say is that the typical adult dose from a nebulizer will gave the same effect as 10 to 12 or so doses form an MDI [using a spacer]. Kerem et al, in "Efficacy of albuterol administered by nebulizer versus spacer device in children with acute asthma" [_The Journal of Pediatrics_, August 1993, pp. 313-317], found that [p. 317]: :         "Our study indicated that albuterol, delivered by an MDI-spacer, did         not differ, in terms of effectiveness, in relieving asthma         symptoms and improving lung function than when it was delivered by         nebulization to a select group of         children with mild to moderate airway obstruction." Their study involved using a dose ratio of 1:5 by spacer versus nebulizer [such that children who weighed, for example, 35 kg or more woudl receive either 5 mg albuterol via nebulizer, or 10 puffs  [100 ug per puff] ffrom an MDI coupled with a spacer]. In their discussion [p. 316] they stated:         "For logistic reasons, it would have been difficult to give an         equivalent dose of albuterol by spacer, and it is probably not         necessary to do so, because less drug is delivered to the lungs         from a nebulizer system as a result of the loss of drug in the         tubing and atmosphere and the retention of drug in         the nebulizer.  In previous studies, the dose ratios for         [Beta-2]-agonsists delivered by MDI-spacer and by nebulizer havee         varied  widely (from 1:1 to 1:10).  In our study, therefore,             we arbitrarily selected a dose ratio for albuterol of 1:5 by spacer         device versus nebulizer.  In a recent study of 12 adults with stable         asthma, it was estimated (on the basis of histamine provocation as a         bioassay for the amount of drug reaching the [Beta-2]-adrenergic         receptors in the lung) that 0.9 mg albuterol from an MDI-spacer would         deliver approximately the same amount of drug to lung receptors as 2.5         mg from a nebulizer." : actually 4-5 times MORE efficient at delivering the medication in particle : sizes that reach the lower airways.  The amount of medication that actually : reaches the airways by either method is <10% of the amount which exits the Most studies I have seen [including the above study] indicate or reference that with a nebulizer, upto 90% of the medication is left in the nebulizer or is lost to the atmosphere [and of the 10% or more that makes it into the patient, obviously not all is going to make it to the lower airways...].  While an estimated 15 to 22% of radiotracer [representing the drug] makes it to the lungs when using an MDI with a spacer [the method and rapidity of inahltions seems to affect how much gets tot eh lungs]. : device in question.  Within that limit, the amount a patient actually : receives can vary enormously depending on quite a number of variables. Definitely. : Assuming optimal use of each device, however, the amount of bronchodilation : achieved with an inhaled beta agonist bronchodilator is comparable with the : two methods. According to the studies I have seen [and based on personal experience], this is only true when one uses a non-1:1 dose ratio [i.e. one needs multiple MDI doses compared to a single nebulizer trreatment; how many "multiple" is depends on a variety of factors, and does vary fomr study to study]. : For those who have trouble with hand -lung coordination (either all the time : or simply because of being short of breath) a nebulizer is a good choice.   There is also the problem that some people experience with propellents or otehr additives in MDIs causing problems of their own. : For those who are technically good or well coordinated at using MDI’s, they : are quicker, more convenient and more portable than nebulizers. Turbuhalers have beeen shown to be even better, but they are unfortunately not yet available in the US DC. <note: all typos, especially in the quoted material, are MY fault, not the authors of the paper cited! The above is not to be construed in any way as medical advice, or any otehr kind of advice

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Sorry, I can’t find the post right now, but someone posted that nebulizers deliver more medication because there is 10-12 times as much medication in them.   It is true that the usual adult dose of albuteral placed in a nebulizer is 2.5 mg as opposed to 180 ug contained in two puffs from an albuteral metered dose inhaler (MDI).  However, the reason for this is that MDI’s are actually 4-5 times MORE efficient at delivering the medication in particle sizes that reach the lower airways.  The amount of medication that actually reaches the airways by either method is <10% of the amount which exits the device in question.  Within that limit, the amount a patient actually receives can vary enormously depending on quite a number of variables. Assuming optimal use of each device, however, the amount of bronchodilation achieved with an inhaled beta agonist bronchodilator is comparable with the two methods. For those who have trouble with hand -lung coordination (either all the time or simply because of being short of breath) a nebulizer is a good choice.   For those who are technically good or well coordinated at using MDI’s, they are quicker, more convenient and more portable than nebulizers. If you have access to a medical library and wish to read more about this subject I suggest the following readings: 1) Aerosols: generation, methods of administration, and therapeutic applications in asthma; in chapter 28 of _Allergy, Principles and Practice_; Eliot Middleton (Ed.); pp712-739. 2) Lee N, Rachelefsky G., et al: Efficacy and safety of albuteral administered by power-driven nebulizer (PND) versus metered dose inhaler (MDI) with Aerochamber and mask in infants and young children with acute asthma, J. Allergy Clin. Immunol. 87:307, 1991. Hope this clears things up. Elaine Turner, M.D., F.A.C.P Allergy and Clinical Immunology Richmond, VA.

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        I have been eating the algae since February, and have noticed GREAT results.  I feel more energy, less fatigue, my afternoon slup is gone, I sleep better, my mental clarity is way up…  I love the stuff. As a former Distributor Services agent at Cell Tech I would reccomend that you keep with it, as some people experience the changes more gradually than immediately.  I was lucky, had no cleansing, and felt it like *snap* that.  What you might want to do is make a daily chart and put down anything you feel is a positive change and take a look at it after about a month.   Health and Happiness, Chris

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   I have been eating the algae since February, and have noticed GREAT results.  I feel more energy, less fatigue, my afternoon slup is gone, I sleep better, my mental clarity is way up…  I love the stuff. As a former Distributor Services agent at Cell Tech I would reccomend that you keep with it, as some people experience the changes more gradually than immediately.  I was lucky, had no cleansing, and felt it like *snap* that.  What you might want to do is make a daily chart and put down anything you feel is a positive change and take a look at it after about a month.  

Oh, why do you suppose the algae would make you feel that way? Here are some clues: WHAT IS ANATOXIN-A? Quoting from _Journal_of_Medical_Microbiology_, "Cyanobacteria and Human Health", 1992, volume 36, page 301: "… produces anatoxin-a, which is an alkaloid cocaine analogue, and causes death in experimental animals within 5-30 min from respiratory paralysis." WHERE DOES ANATOXIN-A COME FROM? Quoting from _Journal_of_Applied_Phycology_, "Anatoxin-A Concentration in _Anabaena_ and _Aphanizomenon_ Under Different Environmental Conditions And Comparison Of Growth By Toxic And Non-Toxic _Anabaena_ Strains:  A Laboratory Study", 1993, volume 5, number 6, page 581: "Anatoxin-a-concentration in cells of _Anabaena_- and _Aphanizomenon_-strains and in their growth media were studied in the laboratory in batch cultures at different temperatures, light fluxes, orthophosphate and nitrate concentrations and with different nitrogen sources for growth." "The highest light flux studied did not limit the growth or decrease the level of the toxin in the cells of _Aphanizomenon_." WHAT DO USERS OF _APHANIZOMENON_ SAY? Odwalla (Davenport, CA 95017) makes a bottled drink called SUPERFOOD which contains 0.5 grams of _Aphanizomenon_ per serving.  Quoting an employee interview with Harold Youngren in _Odwallaspeak_, Spring/Summer 1995, page 10: "I drink two Superfoods every morning when I get into my truck.  The physical effect kicks in after about 25 minutes — an energy rush just in time to start stocking juice at my first stop."

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WHAT IS ANATOXIN-A? Quoting from _Journal_of_Medical_Microbiology_, "Cyanobacteria and Human Health", 1992, volume 36, page 301. "… produces anatoxin-a, which is an alkaloid cocaine analogue, and causes death in experimental animals within 5-30 min from respiratory paralysis."

        Well, there are 200,000+ distributors nationwide, and their families, friends, and customers.  We’re talking lots of people here and I have never heard of any mysterious deaths where respiratory paralysis occured.  You’d think that if this occured in a healthy body, it would be headline news, and it would be traced to the source.  Also, anything in great enough volume is a poison.  Asprin is a wonderful drug, but if you eat too much of that, you’ll get poisoned too. "I drink two Superfoods every morning when I get into my truck.  The physical effect kicks in after about 25 minutes — an energy rush just in time to start stocking juice at my first stop."

        Maybe he’s just feeling the energy from the nutrients.  I’m not sure if you know, but the A.Flos Aquae cell wall is composed of glycogen.  Now I’m no nutritionist, but I have been told by many people that glycogengives the body instant energy. Chris

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WHAT IS ANATOXIN-A? Quoting from _Journal_of_Medical_Microbiology_, "Cyanobacteria and Human Health", 1992, volume 36, page 301. "… produces anatoxin-a, which is an alkaloid cocaine analogue, and causes death in experimental animals within 5-30 min from respiratory paralysis."    Well, there are 200,000+ distributors nationwide, and their families, friends, and customers.  We’re talking lots of people here and I have never heard of any mysterious deaths where respiratory paralysis occured.  You’d think that if this occured in a healthy body, it would be headline news, and it would be traced to the source.  Also, anything in great enough volume is a poison.  Asprin is a wonderful drug, but if you eat too much of that, you’ll get poisoned too.

Ain’t it amazing how fast the alternative types understand the concept that "only the dose makes the poison" when their own profits are involved.  Chris, could you maybe talk to the fluoride people some? They need you.                                              Steve Harris, M.D.

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I would suggest stop taking the algae for a few days.  If you don’t notice any difference then stop taking it and ask for your money back. I have been taking it for about a month.  Have not noticed any tremendous surge in mental energy.  However I have some pretty bad allergies. Symptoms include fatigue, muscle and joint aches, angioedema, and wheezing.  Since taking the algae and acidophilus, there is a marked decrease in the fatigue, muscle and joint aches, and angioedema.  I still go into acute asthma when exposed to perfumes and fragrances.  But the angioedema and fatigue that usually accompanies the wheezing is drastically reduced.  I have forgotten the algae for a couple of days two different times and the symptoms returned. I tried the algae because traditional medicine has little to offer me other than antihistamines (which do minimal good) and inhalers for the acute wheezing.  I figured what could be the harm in trying something else. (Started taking the algae before I read all the comments in this group)  If it didn’t work I had wasted no more money than I had on the antihistamines.  I really would have loved to be able to say that my respiratory sensitivity to fragrances had lessen.  But it hasn’t, however the other benifit are worth continuing to take the algae and acidophilus. However, until I have more information I will not try it on my daughter who has many of the same allergies I do.

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I have been on the sure start program for four weeks now. Cell Tech – Blue Green Algae is suppose to be a sure thing! I have only notice   minuscle changes if any in my physical and mental energy levels. Should I give up on this  food supplement and get my money back or should I stay with the program. Can anyone help me out there?

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I have been on the sure start program for four weeks now. Cell Tech – Blue Green Algae is suppose to be a sure thing! I have only notice   minuscle changes if any in my physical and mental energy levels. Should I give up on this  food supplement and get my money back or should I stay with the program. Can anyone help me out there?

That’s like asking if you should continue to shell out bucks to go to Kevin Costner movies.  It’s an entertainment question.  You’re the expert.                                           Steve Harris, M.D.

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