Question:

Just came home from a visit with my pulmonologist.  I’m having absolutely NO upper respiratory symptoms (runny nose, sinus drip, etc.)., but my asthma is not responding to prednisone, serevent, flovent, etc.  This has been a long-term chronic flare-up, and now my dr. wants me to see an allergist to see if allergies could be causing the asthma but not affecting my upper respiratory tract.  Has anyone heard of this?  My normal course is to get a sinus infection, drain into my chest, bronchitis and asthma problems.  I seemed to have skipped everything and went straight to the asthma. By the way, my doc gave me two new inhalers, which I’d never seen before. The Pulmicort is a cylindrical inhaled powder, and the Serevent Diskus is also a powder, but looks like a little green flying saucer.  Evidently they’re just coming out with them. Would appreciate knowing if anyone else is having allergic reactions such as mine. Thanks, Mary

Response:

Hi Russell, I have both allergic & non allergic induced asthma. There are some things I’m allergic to that I’m more lung sensitive to than my nose is, so yes, definitely check out the allergy aspect.  Mold definitely comes into this category for me. Both those drugs have been out a while.  Serevent is a long acting inhaler of the type your fast acting one is.  I can’t do with out it, Serevent is a great help. However, powder inhalers do not do well by me, cause spasms. But most folks seem to do well with it.  Are you paying much for these?  I think the actual Serevent inhaler is cheaper than the disks, or so it turns out in my area. Pulmicort may be a stronger inhaled cortisone than what you were using before. I use Flovent, about the same intensity I believe.  Sounds like you need it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just came home from a visit with my pulmonologist.  I’m having absolutely NO upper respiratory symptoms (runny nose, sinus drip, etc.)., but my asthma is not responding to prednisone, serevent, flovent, etc.  This has been a long-term chronic flare-up, and now my dr. wants me to see an allergist to see if allergies could be causing the asthma but not affecting my upper respiratory tract.  Has anyone heard of this?  My normal course is to get a sinus infection, drain into my chest, bronchitis and asthma problems.  I seemed to have skipped everything and went straight to the asthma. By the way, my doc gave me two new inhalers, which I’d never seen before. The Pulmicort is a cylindrical inhaled powder, and the Serevent Diskus is also a powder, but looks like a little green flying saucer.  Evidently they’re just coming out with them. Would appreciate knowing if anyone else is having allergic reactions such as mine. Thanks, Mary

Response:

I seemed to have skipped everything and went straight to the asthma

One of my students seems to have had your problem.  After asthma diagnosis, MDI’s and such for a month or less, her allergist put her on a pill (seritin? caritin?  I can’t remember, but it’s the one they advertise on TV and in the magazine ads) and she has been symptom free for six months, except for one time she went into a moldy basement.  She still carries her ventolin, but hasn’t used it all winter. Hoping your problem turns out to be that easy.  Wish mine was. Good luck

Response:

By the way, my doc gave me two new inhalers, which I’d never seen before. The Pulmicort is a cylindrical inhaled powder, and the Serevent Diskus is also a powder, but looks like a little green flying saucer.  Evidently they’re just coming out with them. Had Asthma induced by overage of pulmonary sickness, made my lungs

reactive to some very minor allergies. was put on flovent abd serevent standard inhalers those made my voicelower raw throat and seemed to make  things worse. Pulmicort powder looks a bit like a small white cigar & serevent is the teal ufo was on a taper with these for approx. 10 months with no real side effects. wish you luck! At the moment bronchitis has forced me back to pulmicort for awhile.     Ordinary —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Just came home from a visit with my pulmonologist.  I’m having absolutely NO upper respiratory symptoms (runny nose, sinus drip, etc.)., but my asthma is not responding to prednisone, serevent, flovent, etc.  This has been a long-term chronic flare-up, and now my dr. wants me to see an allergist to see if allergies could be causing the asthma but not affecting my upper respiratory tract.  Has anyone heard of this?  My normal course is to get a sinus infection, drain into my chest, bronchitis and asthma problems.  I seemed to have skipped everything and went straight to the asthma.

There are 2 types of asthma; allergic and nonallergic. Most asthmatics with allergic asthma also have allergic rhinitis [hay fever] with nasal congestion and runny now; they often have other allergic conditions as well, such as eczema, hives, allergic dermatitis, allergic conjuctivitis. It sounds like you are subject to sinusitis. This can occur even when you don’t have symptoms; then flares and causes post nasal drip and lung problems. An ENT can diagnose with CT scan. Saline nasal washes can help keep the nasal passages clear. Another possibility is GE reflux. Pulmicort and Serevent are very effective; I use both. I assume your pulmonologist has given you lung function tests that diagnose the asthma as a reversible disease. Test involves measuring lung function before and after administering a bronchodilator like albuterol; a 12% improvement tends to support the asthma diagnosis. If you have Acute Bronchitis, this can take 6-8 weeks to get over. Links on sinusitis: http://www.aaaai.org/public/publicedmat/tips/sinusitis.stm  SINUSITIS (AAAAI) http://www.ama-assn.org/special/asthma/treatmnt/updates/sinus.htm  Asthma and Sinusitis 11-97 JAMA Ellis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – By the way, my doc gave me two new inhalers, which I’d never seen before. The Pulmicort is a cylindrical inhaled powder, and the Serevent Diskus is also a powder, but looks like a little green flying saucer.  Evidently they’re just coming out with them. Would appreciate knowing if anyone else is having allergic reactions such as mine. Thanks, Mary

Response:

My asthma has not been responding to prednisone and flovent since my attack from candle fragrance the latter part of November.       I have been on prednisone since before the attack, trying to get weaned off and each time I get to 5 mg the cough starts again & the pulmonary dr puts me back on 40 mg (the first time) now this time 20 mg. I am on 10 mg right now plus the flovent 220 but still not as clear as I had been before.  No problem (knock on wood) at the moment with sinus or head congestion which normally leads into the bronchial asthma.

Response:

Ask your doctor if it would help to clear your nose/sinuses and restore nasal cilia function. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just came home from a visit with my pulmonologist.  I’m having absolutely NO upper respiratory symptoms (runny nose, sinus drip, etc.)., but my asthma is not responding to prednisone, serevent, flovent, etc.  This has been a long-term chronic flare-up, and now my dr. wants me to see an allergist to see if allergies could be causing the asthma but not affecting my upper respiratory tract.  Has anyone heard of this?  My normal course is to get a sinus infection, drain into my chest, bronchitis and asthma problems.  I seemed to have skipped everything and went straight to the asthma. By the way, my doc gave me two new inhalers, which I’d never seen before. The Pulmicort is a cylindrical inhaled powder, and the Serevent Diskus is also a powder, but looks like a little green flying saucer.  Evidently they’re just coming out with them. Would appreciate knowing if anyone else is having allergic reactions such as mine. Thanks, Mary

Hi Mary, There’s a Bunch of information about asthma on http://wwwprod.healthcite.com/HealthReview/p1110.html You can find some stuff comparing allergies and asthma, as well as the different types of asthma, under the heading "Basic Info". I hope this helps. Best Regards, Jolanta Stolarczyk HealthCite

Response:

Question:

"Fingers and toes getting tingly is from hyperventilating.  She’s panting because of the asthma attack and getting too much oxygen.  When she gets the tingly sensation, have her breathe into a paperbag. " Actually, it is from low CO2. This changes the pH, alters calcium binding to albumin, and changes neuronal function. It can be corrected by breathing into the bag because that recirculates the CO2. This is fine if it is just a panic attack but I wouldn’t give this more than a brief try if it is from an asthma attack. — Good Luck, CBI, M.D.

Response:

Show me a doctor willing to give telephone advice and instructions on how to care for a patient he or she has never seen and knows nothing objective about and I’ll show you a doctor with judgement so bad I don’t know that I’d want them to be my doctor.

you’re absolutely correct. I didn’t think the Dr would actually give advice over the phone. I was trying suggest  some way of  getting past the receptionist and speak to the Doctor, in the hopes that the Dr would   move up the appointment after hearing how concerned the parent was for his child. I’ve done this myself when I come across a receptionist who can’t give me an appointment because she’s staring at a full y loaded appointment book. (Actually, I learned this tactic while working in a Dr’s office!) If I think my daughter’s got to be seen, I’m going to convince the Dr of it! Donna

Response:

My own policy is that we’ll make room for anyone who has an urgent problem. Other patients are told and mostly understand that we’re going to spend as much time as necessary for every patient we see and this means their appointment may run late but when they’re the ones who need the time they get it too when they need it. There’s obviously a limit to how many people you can overbook and we can’t always do it for a patient’s convenience but we can do it if the urgency of the problem requires it. There are usually no-shows (sometimes the patients even call when they can’t make it) that make up for the overbooks. Show me a doctor willing to give telephone advice and instructions on how to care for a patient he or she has never seen and knows nothing objective about and I’ll show you a doctor with judgement so bad I don’t know that I’d want them to be my doctor. you’re absolutely correct. I didn’t think the Dr would actually give advice over the phone. I was trying suggest  some way of  getting past the receptionist and speak to the Doctor, in the hopes that the Dr would   move up the appointment after hearing how concerned the parent was for his child. I’ve done this myself when I come across a receptionist who can’t give me an appointment because she’s staring at a full y loaded appointment book. (Actually, I learned this tactic while working in a Dr’s office!) If I think my daughter’s got to be seen, I’m going to convince the Dr of it! Donna

– Don Elton Columbia, SC http://www.midcarolina.org

Response:

month away.  My question is   with maintenance should she be able to participate in band ?  She plays a trumpet.  When do I as a parent nudge

First of all, pushing her is probably a bad idea, espeically right now with the asthma not controlled.  Once it is controlled, "pushing" perhaps isn’t the best word.  Making sur she isn’t putting up artificial barriers, or having them put in place for her by others, is a good role to take.  Being her advocate, both to her and to others, I suppose is the term that I would use. Second, once the asthma gets under control, she probably will be able to continue participating in band.  But the asthma likely needs to be under good control first.  And depending on how well it can be controlled with specific triggers, she may have to do something like forgo marching band and take up concert or symphonic band, which are inside bands.  That is something that you probably just can’t guage right now since the asthma is messed up. In terms of playing a wind instrument, she should be fine with the asthma well-managed.  though obviously there are no guarantees.  My MD is quite certain that playing flute for so many years is what gave me the high peak flows that I have [my personal best is a 620, while the PREDICTED for me is only around a 480...], and that it probably ended up keeping me alive on more than one occasion, because my lng capacitiy was just that much larger than it "should" have been… I developed asthma at 14 and was able to continue to play the flute [with some adjustments in terms of there wer just times I couldn't do it], and my asthma actually was under very bad control throughout high school.  I also managed to participate in ross counry running, though would have to walk about a third of the race, and I always came in dead last… but I finished and that made ME happy Finally, if your daughter would like someone to correspond with who was in somewhat of her shoes, please feel free to ave her send me an email.  I was 13 when I had my first attack, 14 when I was diagnosed [finally] with asthma, and I have had it since.  I am now 26 and in Graduate School, and these last 12 years have been an adventure, especially with the curves asthma can throw at you at times. Oh, and one more thing — the tingly fingers and toes cna come form one of twot hings.  For most people, it is from hyperventilating, often triggered by anxiey.  if that is the cause, then slowing one’s breathing down and calming down will correct the problem.  Worst case, the person hyperventilates themselves into fainting, which is harmless [as long as they don't hit anything on the way down ] and self-correcting — they will wake up shortly and the problem is solved.  Of course, that is not the optimal solution, so slowing down breahting and calming down is the preferred solution. However, it can also be caused because of improper gas exchanges as a result of an asthma attack [or similar respiratory problem].. How to tell the difference?  If the person can slow down their breathing and calm down right away, it is probably hyperventilation. if the person is breathing rapidly [which they will; anything over 20 breaths a minute for an adult is too fast, but someone hyperventilating can easily be over 30; SO CAN SOMEONE IN AN ASTHMA ATTACK].  But if they are breahting fast BUT CAN STILL SPEAK IN COMPLETE SENTENCES before needing another breath, they are probably hyperventilating.  If he person can only speak in phrases or words, it is probably an asthma attack and they need to be using meds.  There are some other indicators of an asthma attack [like wheezing, but not everyon wheezes], and they may help ifferentiating the two as well. Finally, speak with her MD about pre-medicating before band.  This would involve taking 1-2 puffs form the rescue inhaler about 30 minuts before band started, and it may prevent an attack from occurring.  it is what people with execise-induced asthma often have to do so they are able ot exercise.  Also, if she isn;t already on he, something like an antihistamine like Zyrtec or Allegra might be an idea, and may help significantly [though it may not; some people find it helps the asthma, others do not]. Good luck. SW.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At the age of 14 my daughter was just diagnosed with Asthma last week. She went to her local Doctor after complaining of coughing fits at Band Practice.  She said she was very mild and gave her a rescue inhaler ( Max-Air)  We went about our business and went to a local amusement park.  She had an attack and was treated by paramedics Oxygen level down to 90% ( is this bad ? )  and released.  2 hours later she had another while sitting still and was taken by ambulance to an ER.  Upon arriving home we went to the local care Dr again  who gave her two more inhalers, a cortisone one, and another ( sorry I don’t know what at this time ) She also prescribed Antibiotic in case of infection.  The poor girl can’t participate in band which she worked so hard for.  The most field time she can get in is 30 minutes.  She says her chest tightens up, her fingers and toes get tingly.  5 minutes in an air-conditioned car or building and she is ok.  The practice field is acres of grass, surrounded by cornfields.  The pollen count shot up after a july and most of august of no rain ( We are in PA)  it is now 98.

Most likely she has asthma induced by allergies to the grass pollen and irritated by the dust. Asthmatics should take care to always breath thru the nose to filter the air; hard for a trumpet player to do since they have to gulp air between toots. Most likely she would need to discontinue marching band; and just participate in concert band and orchestra. She should not be in situation where she is pressured to continue performing with an imminent asthma attack.    We got an appointment with the local allergist/Asthma specialist but it is one month away.  My question is   with maintenance should she be able to participate in band ?  She plays a trumpet.  When do I as a parent nudge her, push her, or let her give in.  She gets anxious and wants to give up 5 minutes into practice.  I have allergies and My first wife died of cystic fibrosis so I am aware of breathing distress, but I don’t want to baby her too much.  She was so fired up for band, made it through two weeks of 9 hour practices ( before the rain came ) and now has a defeated attitude.  Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you, Dave and my daughter Hollie

Once she sees the specialist, she can develop an Action Plan to deal with asthma; this involves monitoring peak flow with a peak flow meter; and increasing meds when peak flow drops. It also involves minimizing exposure to allergens and irritants, that trigger the asthma. Playing a wind instrument and marching on a grassy dusty field is not a good idea for an asthmatic. I also suggest you be sympathetic to the asthma problem. Oxygen level of 90% and trip to ER suggest a real problem. You don’t recover from an asthma attack in 5 min in air conditioning. This is where the peak flow meter would be useful; be sure to get one ASAP; requires a doctor’s prescription, but he can call one in. $25 or so at Walgreen’s. Also, she should always carry her rescue inhaler (Maxair) when she leaves the house. Link: http://www.mayohealth.org/mayo/9809/htm/asth_prep.htm Planning for next attack http://www.ama-assn.org/special/asthma/support/educate/action.htm Asthma Action Plan Ellis

Response:

Of course none of what I type below should be construed as medical advice or the practice of medicine in your state wherever that may be… Some general comments though – an asthma attack doesn’t resolve with 5 minutes of airconditioning. Tingling in the fingers associated with respiratory distress is usually hyperventilation – usually caused by and usually causes anxiety and stress. The symptoms come from too little carbon dioxide and not too much oxygen. Primary treatment is getting the patient to calm down. Sometimes rebreathing air helps but I would recommend that a layperson do this as it’s easy to make someone worse who is really having an asthma attack if you try this trick. A saturation of 90% isn’t normal for a healthy person but it isn’t low enough to be harmful in and of itself. Pulse oximeters are frequently innaccurate particularly in inadequately trained hands. No one should be "treated and released" by paramedics for asthma. Paramedics aren’t allowed to give proper treatment for asthma  that’s good enough to allow anyone to be "released" without a medical evaluation. I’m biased toward a pulmonologist’s care for asthma as opposed to an allergist but there are many allergists who can do a good job – unfortunately most aren’t available to help you out if you really get sick and go into the hospital though. Something like a competitive band environment would be a typical cause of anxiety attacks and hyperventilation attacks in susceptible individuals – of course I have no way of knowing whether this applies to your daughter but it’s offered for informational purposes only. Hope this helps you out some. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At the age of 14 my daughter was just diagnosed with Asthma last week. She went to her local Doctor after complaining of coughing fits at Band Practice.  She said she was very mild and gave her a rescue inhaler ( Max-Air)  We went about our business and went to a local amusement park.  She had an attack and was treated by paramedics Oxygen level down to 90% ( is this bad ? )  and released.  2 hours later she had another while sitting still and was taken by ambulance to an ER.  Upon arriving home we went to the local care Dr again  who gave her two more inhalers, a cortisone one, and another ( sorry I don’t know what at this time ) She also prescribed Antibiotic in case of infection.  The poor girl can’t participate in band which she worked so hard for.  The most field time she can get in is 30 minutes.  She says her chest tightens up, her fingers and toes get tingly.  5 minutes in an air-conditioned car or building and she is ok.  The practice field is acres of grass, surrounded by cornfields.  The pollen count shot up after a july and most of august of no rain ( We are in PA)  it is now 98.    We got an appointment with the local allergist/Asthma specialist but it is one month away.  My question is   with maintenance should she be able to participate in band ?  She plays a trumpet.  When do I as a parent nudge her, push her, or let her give in.  She gets anxious and wants to give up 5 minutes into practice.  I have allergies and My first wife died of cystic fibrosis so I am aware of breathing distress, but I don’t want to baby her too much.  She was so fired up for band, made it through two weeks of 9 hour practices ( before the rain came ) and now has a defeated attitude.  Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you, Dave and my daughter Hollie

– Don Elton, MD, FCCP Columbia, SC http://www.midcarolina.org

Response:

Show me a doctor willing to give telephone advice and instructions on how to care for a patient he or she has never seen and knows nothing objective about and I’ll show you a doctor with judgement so bad I don’t know that I’d want them to be my doctor. We publish general information on our web pages etc but would never presume to treat or give advice to someone we have never seen – to do so is dangerous for us and the patient. If you need a doctor evaluation then you need a doctor evaluation – shop around if necessary to find someone who can see you sooner if necessary. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: At the age of 14 my daughter was just diagnosed with Asthma last week. The practice field is acres of grass, surrounded by cornfields.  The pollen count shot up after a july and most of august of no rain ( We are in PA)  it is now 98. I’ve been having the same problem with my daughter. Due to the lack of rain (I’m in NY) the ragweed pollenated earlier this year, and my daughter had to go back on the full regimine of medications to get her asthma back under control.  We got an appointment with the local allergist/Asthma specialist but it is one month away. I would give them a call and try to speak directly with the Dr. I now it’s difficult to get past the receptionist sometimes, but tell them that your appointment is a month away, and you’d like to talk to the Dr about what to do for your daughter in the meantime. If you explain the situation to the Dr, and if he/she feels her condition is serious, they’ll move your appointment up. My question is  with maintenance should she be able to participate in band ?  She plays a trumpet.  When do I as a parent nudge her, push her, or let her give in. I’m sure once she’s diagnosed, the Dr will get her on a good maintenance plan, and she should be able to participate in band. I suspect that her asthma is exasperated by her allergies, and that if you can control them, you have get a handle on the asthma. This is the situation with my daughter, and the fall is the worst time of the year for her. But, by keeping up with monitering her peak flow, we are able to head off an attack with additional medication before she gets real bad. Don’t let her get too discouraged though, I’m sure she’s devasted at the thought of having to give up playing the trumpet after all the hard work she’s put into it. I know how scared I was when my daughter was first diagnosed, so I hope this helps! good luck with everything, Donna Mauriello Donna

– Don Elton Columbia, SC http://www.midcarolina.org

Response:

writes: At the age of 14 my daughter was just diagnosed with Asthma last week. The practice field is acres of grass, surrounded by cornfields.  The pollen count shot up after a july and most of august of no rain ( We are in PA)  it is now 98.

I’ve been having the same problem with my daughter. Due to the lack of rain (I’m in NY) the ragweed pollenated earlier this year, and my daughter had to go back on the full regimine of medications to get her asthma back under control.  We got an appointment with the local allergist/Asthma specialist but it is one month away.

I would give them a call and try to speak directly with the Dr. I now it’s difficult to get past the receptionist sometimes, but tell them that your appointment is a month away, and you’d like to talk to the Dr about what to do for your daughter in the meantime. If you explain the situation to the Dr, and if he/she feels her condition is serious, they’ll move your appointment up. My question is  with maintenance should she be able to participate in band ?  She plays a trumpet.  When do I as a parent nudge her, push her, or let her give in.

I’m sure once she’s diagnosed, the Dr will get her on a good maintenance plan, and she should be able to participate in band. I suspect that her asthma is exasperated by her allergies, and that if you can control them, you have get a handle on the asthma. This is the situation with my daughter, and the fall is the worst time of the year for her. But, by keeping up with monitering her peak flow, we are able to head off an attack with additional medication before she gets real bad. Don’t let her get too discouraged though, I’m sure she’s devasted at the thought of having to give up playing the trumpet after all the hard work she’s put into it. I know how scared I was when my daughter was first diagnosed, so I hope this helps! good luck with everything, Donna Mauriello Donna

Response:

At the age of 14 my daughter was just diagnosed with Asthma last week. She went to her local Doctor after complaining of coughing fits at Band Practice.  She said she was very mild and gave her a rescue inhaler ( Max-Air)  We went about our business and went to a local amusement park.  She had an attack and was treated by paramedics Oxygen level down to 90% ( is this bad ? )  and released.  

Yes, this is not good.  Around 90% I start getting tunnel vision and passing out. 2 hours later she had another while sitting still and was taken by ambulance to an ER.  Upon arriving home we went to the local care Dr again  who gave her two more inhalers, a cortisone one, and another ( sorry I don’t know what at this time ) She also prescribed Antibiotic in case of infection.  The poor girl can’t participate in band which she worked so hard for.  The most field time she can get in is 30 minutes.  She says her chest tightens up, her fingers and toes get tingly.  

Fingers and toes getting tingly is from hyperventolating.  She’s panting because of the asthma attack and getting too much oxygen.  When she gets the tingly sensation, have her breathe into a paperbag.   5 minutes in an air-conditioned car or building and she is ok.  The practice field is acres of grass, surrounded by cornfields.  The pollen count shot up after a july and most of august of no rain ( We are in PA)  it is now 98.    

I’d say she may need to give up marching band.  Asthma is Not something to mess around with.  People die from it. We got an appointment with the local allergist/Asthma specialist but it is one month away.  

You could call and ask if there is a cancellation and you can get in earlier. My question is   with maintenance should she be able to participate in band ?  She plays a trumpet.  When do I as a parent nudge her, push her, or let her give in.  She gets anxious and wants to give up 5 minutes into practice.  

It’s NEVER a good idea to push an asthmatic.  If she wants to quit, LET HER! She needs to get her asthma under control before she pushes herself. She’s anxious because she is having problems breathing.  THat’s enough to panic ANYONE.  She needs an assessment by a pulmonary specialist. Don’t just take her to an allergist, get a pulmonary specialist involved. I have allergies and My first wife died of cystic fibrosis so I am aware of breathing distress, but I don’t want to baby her too much.  She was so fired up for band, made it through two weeks of 9 hour practices ( before the rain came ) and now has a defeated attitude.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Can she play in the high school indoor band?  Marching band isn’t the only band at our school. Thank you, Dave and my daughter Hollie

Sue Smoke Often Die Young

Response:

At the age of 14 my daughter was just diagnosed with Asthma last week. She went to her local Doctor after complaining of coughing fits at Band Practice.  She said she was very mild and gave her a rescue inhaler ( Max-Air)  We went about our business and went to a local amusement park.  She had an attack and was treated by paramedics Oxygen level down to 90% ( is this bad ? )  and released.  2 hours later she had another while sitting still and was taken by ambulance to an ER.  Upon arriving home we went to the local care Dr again  who gave her two more inhalers, a cortisone one, and another ( sorry I don’t know what at this time ) She also prescribed Antibiotic in case of infection.  The poor girl can’t participate in band which she worked so hard for.  The most field time she can get in is 30 minutes.  She says her chest tightens up, her fingers and toes get tingly.  5 minutes in an air-conditioned car or building and she is ok.  The practice field is acres of grass, surrounded by cornfields.  The pollen count shot up after a july and most of august of no rain ( We are in PA)  it is now 98.    We got an appointment with the local allergist/Asthma specialist but it is one month away.  My question is   with maintenance should she be able to participate in band ?  She plays a trumpet.  When do I as a parent nudge her, push her, or let her give in.  She gets anxious and wants to give up 5 minutes into practice.  I have allergies and My first wife died of cystic fibrosis so I am aware of breathing distress, but I don’t want to baby her too much.  She was so fired up for band, made it through two weeks of 9 hour practices ( before the rain came ) and now has a defeated attitude.  Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you, Dave and my daughter Hollie

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Question:

It maybe amines. We have patients who have papain and bromine as triggers which are found in papayas and pineapples. Alcohol has amines but may also cause reflux ( so can aciditic fruits) In our experience a large percentage of asthmatics including children suffer from GERDS. The literature suggests 50 -70 % of adult asthmatics have reflux Reflux can trigger cough and asthma by acid presence in the lower esophagus or worse micro-aspiration into the upper airway. Reflux symptoms include acid taste, bubbling or chest pain/tightness. All our suspected or diaganosed GERDS patients have their beds raised with a 6 inch block under the legs at the head end. They can eat nothing 3 hours before bed. We put them on PPIs such as Losec They cannot have alcohol, coffee, fatty foods or spicy food or drink. They are not allowed to wear tight clothing. We put them on exercise programs for weight loss if required. know your triggers including GERDS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -well….. i have that …… i get asthma when i eat things like coconut, pineapples….. and any form of alchohol…… i haven’t found anyone like that in my area …… any of you get that ? i live in a tropical country and i’ve found that travelling to temperate countries like England can actually cure my asthma because of the dry air…. as long as it’s not too cold there…… the thing is that i used to get asthma quite often (once a week or so) and when i went to england it happened almost every night…. but when i came back i haven’t had it since, and that was last year in june……. just thoughts to share….. i do appreciate correspondence though….. amanda

– thanks and best regards Paul Horn

Response:

well….. i have that …… i get asthma when i eat things like coconut, pineapples….. and any form of alchohol…… i haven’t found anyone like that in my area …… any of you get that ?

Both pinapple and coconut contain amines and salicylates, so you could have an allergy to either or both of those substances. Most alcohol also contains moderate to high levels of amines, and some level of salicylates (I’m not sure how much). There are a whole lot of other foods containing these compounds in various levels, so you would most likely be reacting to  a variety of things. Eg spinach, a lot of fish and most cheeses are very high in amine content. If you think this might be the case you might want to see a dietician or nutritionalist dealing with food allergies, who could put you on an elimination diet and then challenge with potential offending foods. Jane.

Response:

well….. i have that …… i get asthma when i eat things like coconut, pineapples….. and any form of alchohol…… i haven’t found anyone like that in my area …… any of you get that ? i live in a tropical country and i’ve found that travelling to temperate countries like England can actually cure my asthma because of the dry air…. as long as it’s not too cold there…… the thing is that i used to get asthma quite often (once a week or so) and when i went to england it happened almost every night…. but when i came back i haven’t had it since, and that was last year in june……. just thoughts to share….. i do appreciate correspondence though….. amanda

Response:

Question:

In article <35bcba96.80279…@news.easynet.co.uk>, jral…@easynet.co.uk (J Ralph Blanchfield) wrote: >Hello "Demon UK" and Everyone, >Scientists at >University of Nebraska (probably the world’s number one centre for >scientific research on food allergens) applied a standard test (see >below) and found that the experimental modified soya contained a known >proteinaceous allergen from Brazil nuts (Nordlee et al, 1995).

There is no such thing as a standard test which is one hundred percent accurate.   >The >company concerned (Pioneer Hi-Bred) reported these findings publicly >and discontinued the Brazil nut/soybean research programme.

Which is to their credit. >This represents a straightforward case of preventing the introduction >of a known allergen.

I don’t see any prevention here.  The company displayed an unusual sensitivity; a person might suspect they are ripe for a takeover. >The testing of genetically modified products for >suspected allergens is done by an IgE test with serum from sensitive >individuals [e.g. Herian et al (1990)].

I repeat that there is no such thing as a one hundred percent accurate test. >However, there is also a need to test products where genes have been >inserted, copied from sources not known to be allergenic.

Wrong.  There is a need not to insert and copy foreign genes into foods.  There is no such thing as an accurate allergy test, and who knows what non-IgE sensitivities may turn up years later. When we go to the store we need to be sure that we are not getting a rice that is "improved" with maize and fruit fly genes.  Otherwise the only way we (food allergy sufferers) are going to survive is by a massive rejection of all commercially grown food.  We already have to reject nearly all processed food. >Astwood et >al (1996) have developed a method. Stability of a protein or protein >fragments to digestion in simulated gastric fluid (SGF) is used to >assess the potential allergenicity of a protein.

This sounds even less credible than the IgE blood tests in terms of its potential accuracy.  You are looking for a cheap, simple and reliable test so that you can modify our food with impunity.  As I think I mentioned before, there isn’t one… …mcbob

Response:

Hello "Demon UK" and Everyone, On Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:11:23 +0100, "Demon UK" <c…@crazygirls.demon.co.uk> wrote:

—–snip—– >Another writer suggested the following reason (though he didn’t know this >for a fact):- >the problem people are experiencing with soy is due to the genetic >engineering projects which combined soy with certain nuts, i believe, in >order to make it more pest-resistant?  so, if one uses pure soy, one is >normally fine…  those reactions sound like nut allergy reactions…

Oh, no! Not again! Not surprising that "he did not know this for a fact". It is nor a fact, but an assiduously peddled urban myth. No soya "combined with certain nuts" has ever been put on the market anywhere.  The story, which gets repeated on the Internet over and over again,  relates back to an experimental research programme in 1994-95 to modify soya (not the highly-publicised "roundup-ready" modification) with a copy of a gene from Brazil nut. Scientists at University of Nebraska (probably the world’s number one centre for scientific research on food allergens) applied a standard test (see below) and found that the experimental modified soya contained a known proteinaceous allergen from Brazil nuts (Nordlee et al, 1995). The company concerned (Pioneer Hi-Bred) reported these findings publicly and discontinued the Brazil nut/soybean research programme. This represents a straightforward case of preventing the introduction of a known allergen. The testing of genetically modified products for suspected allergens is done by an IgE test with serum from sensitive individuals [e.g. Herian et al (1990)]. However, there is also a need to test products where genes have been inserted, copied from sources not known to be allergenic. Astwood et al (1996) have developed a method. Stability of a protein or protein fragments to digestion in simulated gastric fluid (SGF) is used to assess the potential allergenicity of a protein. References ~~~~~~~~~ Astwood J D et al (1996) Nature Biotechnology, 14, 1269-1273. Nordlee J A et al (1995) "Identification of Brazil-nut allergen in transgenic soybeans", New England Journal of Medicine, 334, 688-692. Herian A M et al (1990) "Identification of soybean allergens by immunoblotting in sera from soy-allergic adults", Int. Arch. Allergy Appl. Immunol., 92, 193-198. Regards Ralph ****************************************************************** J Ralph Blanchfield, MBE Food Science, Food Technology & Food Law Consultant Chair, IFST External Affairs Web Editor, Institute of Food Science & Technology IFST Web address <http://www.easynet.co.uk/ifst/> e-mail: <jral…@easynet.co.uk>     ICQ# 6254687. ICQ Web page <wwp.mirabilis.com/6254687> ******************************************************************

Response:

Hello Everyone, First, my apologies to those who want only serious information and discussion on allergies here, and may not really be interested in this sort of debate; but this is my final word in regard to the unpleasant McCharles. On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:53:36 -0700, mc…@well.com (Robert McCharles) wrote a self-discrediting posting, including, in reply to my >>"Out of nowhere", Robert? Hardly. >I didn’t say this.

Well, let us see whether he is truthful or lying. Responding to Ralph, Robert McCharles wrote on Sunday, 26 July 05.14 >>>I’ve been posting here off and on for months about the poor reliability >>>of allergy tests.   You come out of nowhere and start offering >>>longwinded papers

Responding to Robert McCharles,  Ralph wrote on Mon, 27 July 23.06 >>"Out of nowhere", Robert? Hardly.

Responding to Ralph, Robert McCharles wrote on Tuesday, 28 July  04.53 >>"Out of nowhere", Robert? Hardly. >I didn’t say this.

Condemned and discredited out of his own mouth. Would any readers buy a used car from such a person? His pathetic lie is on a par with the general tenor of his illogical and unprincipled posting. And he claims to be a member of a respected profession! Ratrional discussion with him appears impossible; he is clearly only spoiling for a fight and doesn’t care what he says to provoke it. But it "takes two to tango" and I shall not engage in any further interchange with him. I am entirely content to invite any subscribers who are interested in the matters at issue to re-read my actual posts of 27 July and his of 28 July and judge for themselves. He may, of course, bluster on, unchallenged, but I think subscribers here will now give little or no credence to what he says. Regards to all except McCharles (who has forfeited any regard). Ralph ****************************************************************** J Ralph Blanchfield, MBE Food Science, Food Technology & Food Law Consultant Chair, IFST External Affairs Web Editor, Institute of Food Science & Technology IFST Web address <http://www.easynet.co.uk/ifst/> e-mail: <jral…@easynet.co.uk>       ICQ# 6254687. ICQ Web page <wwp.mirabilis.com/6254687> ******************************************************************

Response:

I’ve checked with all major supermarkets who checked with their bread & flour manufacturers – Soya is used as a bleaching agent, but unfortunately not only in white flours Very few flours don’t use it, though you are quite right MOST organic ones don’t and a FEW normal flours don’t Soya oil is used in most vegetable oils and hydrogenated vegetable oils, again, this is according to the manufacturers (who should know) and the the propellant for most inhalers A consultant specialising in Soya allergies was on the Countryfile  TV program a while ago saying that the dramatic increase in soya allergy was directly related to the introduction of genetically engineered Soya Another writer suggested the following reason (though he didn’t know this for a fact):- the problem people are experiencing with soy is due to the genetic engineering projects which combined soy with certain nuts, i believe, in order to make it more pest-resistant?  so, if one uses pure soy, one is normally fine…  those reactions sound like nut allergy reactions… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jack Campin wrote in message <3…@purr.demon.co.uk>…

Response:

Hello Everyone, On Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:47:52 -0700, in alt.support.food-allergies Robert McCharles wrote >In article <35bcba96.80279…@news.easynet.co.uk>, >jral…@easynet.co.uk (J Ralph Blanchfield) wrote: >>Hello "Demon UK" and Everyone, >>Scientists at >>University of Nebraska (probably the world’s number one centre for >>scientific research on food allergens) applied a standard test (see >>below) and found that the experimental modified soya contained a known >>proteinaceous allergen from Brazil nuts (Nordlee et al, 1995). >There is no such thing as a standard test which is one hundred >percent accurate.  

As nothing in life is one hundred percent certain, that assertion is is too pointless and meaningless to warrant discussion. But he is confusing this test with testing a person for what s/he is  allergic to. This is a test of a _substance_  to see if it is capable of provoking the formation of IgE antibodies. >>The >>company concerned (Pioneer Hi-Bred) reported these findings publicly >>and discontinued the Brazil nut/soybean research programme. >Which is to their credit. >>This represents a straightforward case of preventing the introduction >>of a known allergen. >I don’t see any prevention here.  The company displayed an unusual >sensitivity; a person might suspect they are ripe for a takeover.

Before the company could act in any way, the result of the testing also displays the role and capability of science in detecting and preventing new allergic hazards.  Failure to see that suggests a political agenda and an attitude of  "my mind is made up, don’t confuse me with facts" >>The testing of genetically modified products for >>suspected allergens is done by an IgE test with serum from sensitive >>individuals [e.g. Herian et al (1990)]. >I repeat that there is no such thing as a one hundred percent >accurate test.

See my comments above. >>However, there is also a need to test products where genes have been >>inserted, copied from sources not known to be allergenic. >Wrong.  There is a need not to insert and copy foreign genes into >foods.

And there is his political agenda. > There is no such thing as an accurate allergy test, and >who knows what non-IgE sensitivities may turn up years later.

Third repetition of "there is no such thing…" McBob evidently follows the Lewis Carroll "Hunting of the Snark" principle "I have told you once, I have told you twice, what I tell you three times is true". >When we go to the store we need to be sure that we are not >getting a rice that is "improved" with maize and fruit fly >genes.  

Distinctive labelling, as is now mandatory in EU Member States, takes care of that. BTW, plain ordinary unmodified rice is itself a significant food allergen, and the best hopes of solving or at any rate alleviating that problem, are two major research projects in Japan. One  is that of  developing  hypoallergenic rice by enzymatic treatment (Watanabe et al, 1990).  The other is to develop a transgenic rice with a low allergen content (Matsuda and Nakamura, 1993). It is even possible that genetic modification of  known major serious allergenic foods could be aimed at removing their allergenicity. What about genetically-modified peanut that is no longer allergenic? Many life-threathened sufferers would rejoice, but would it offend McBob/s closed mind? >Otherwise the only way we (food allergy sufferers) >are going to survive is by a massive rejection of all >commercially grown food.  We already have to reject nearly >all processed food.

See remark above about distinctive labelling. >>Astwood et >>al (1996) have developed a method. Stability of a protein or protein >>fragments to digestion in simulated gastric fluid (SGF) is used to >>assess the potential allergenicity of a protein. >This sounds even less credible than the IgE blood tests in >terms of its potential accuracy.  You are looking for a >cheap, simple and reliable test so that you can modify >our food with impunity.  

Why would McBob assume that (other than that alleging it suits his line of attack)? Unlike McBob, I have no political agenda. I have no personal or business connection whatever with any biotech or genetic modification company or interest. I am a scientist who tries to be objective, and who happens, through study, to know something about the science involved, and also an allergy-sufferer who is particularly interested in the science of food allergens. I posted in this thread only to dispel the recently quoted urban myth that nut-modified soya was the cause of current soya allergy. I am happy to see that Jack agrees with me in that matter. BTW, as a scientist, I give references for the scientific research papers that I quote, though I expect that they will be wasted on McBob. >As I think I mentioned before, >there isn’t one…"

Repeating his mantra ad nauseam, McBob goes one better than Lewis Carroll. "What I tell you four times is true"! References ~~~~~~~~~ Watanabe M et al (1990), "Production of hypoallergenic rice by enzymatic decomposition of constituent proteins", Journal of Food Science, 55, 781-783. Matsuda T and Nakamura R, (1993) "Molecular structure and immunological properties of food allergens", Trends in Food Science & Technology, 4(9), 289-293. ****************************************************************** J Ralph Blanchfield, MBE Food Science, Food Technology & Food Law Consultant Chair, IFST External Affairs Web Editor, Institute of Food Science & Technology IFST Web address <http://www.easynet.co.uk/ifst/> e-mail: <jral…@easynet.co.uk>       ICQ# 6254687. ICQ Web page <wwp.mirabilis.com/6254687> ******************************************************************

Response:

jral…@easynet.co.uk (J Ralph Blanchfield) writes: > Robert McCharles wrote >> jral…@easynet.co.uk (J Ralph Blanchfield) wrote: >>> Scientists at >>> University of Nebraska (probably the world’s number one centre for >>> scientific research on food allergens) applied a standard test (see >>> below) and found that the experimental modified soya contained a known >>> proteinaceous allergen from Brazil nuts

The test, as Ralph described it, involved seeing if the substance was degraded by digestive enzymes.  If it wasn’t, it was considered suspect. >> There is no such thing as a standard test which is one hundred >> percent accurate. > As nothing in life is one hundred percent certain, that assertion is > is too pointless and meaningless to warrant discussion. But he is > confusing this test with testing a person for what s/he is  allergic > to. This is a test of a _substance_  to see if it is capable of > provoking the formation of IgE antibodies.

But since there are many substances that provoke IgE reactions on contact with the lining of the respiratory tract, or with the mouth and oesophagus, this test appears to be entirely meaningless.  What conceivable relevance have digestive enzymes got to asthma induced by airborne particles?  Or to the anaphylactic reactions some people get before they can even swallow peanut?  Not much comfort that the stuff isn’t going to provoke an allergic reaction in your intestine if you’re already dead because of what it’s done on its way there, is it? –> email to "jc" at the site in the "From:" line: mail to "jack" bounces <– Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html  food intolerance data and recipes, freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources

Response:

"Demon UK" <c…@crazygirls.demon.co.uk> writes: > A consultant specialising in Soya allergies was on the Countryfile  TV > program a while ago saying that the dramatic increase in soya allergy > was directly related to the introduction of genetically engineered Soya

I think I have a fair idea of how many allergy specialists there are in the UK, and most certainly there are *not* enough for there to be anybody medically qualified who specializes in soya allergy.  I suspect this "consultant" was some crank activist.  (Remember, the media never puts anybody’s head on the box without labelling them as a "leading expert" in whatever they’re mouthing off about). Genetically engineered soya is so recent an import into the UK that there is *no way* it can be responsible for much allergy.  (There are, however, many *other* reasons for fighting against it; but introducing bogus scares only weakens the opposition). > Another writer suggested the following reason (though he didn’t know this > for a fact):- > the problem people are experiencing with soy is due to the genetic > engineering projects which combined soy with certain nuts, i believe, in > order to make it more pest-resistant?

This is a garbled report of an early experiment in which brazil nut genes were introduced into soy.  Someone noticed that one gene was potentially allergenic and the strain was never developed further or marketed.  It is most likely completely extinct by now. > so, if one uses pure soy, one is normally fine…

Of course "one" is.  All allergies affect only a minority.  But legume allergies, including soy allergies, are widespread and have been causing illness and misery for generations.  The development that turned it into a major public health problem was not genetic engineering, but the adoption of soy as a major product by American agribusiness in the 1960s.  Since then, vastly more people have ben exposed to soy than ever before in human history, including many people genetically ill-equipped to deal with it. The result is fairly predictable – hitting whole populations with totally new foods is always going to kill a minority of them.  (As well as the allergic potential of soy, due to the chemicals it shares with the other legumes, it has a high level of oestrogenic compounds; these may even have been implicated in your friend’s ovarian cancer, if she habitually ate a lot of it). > those reactions sound like nut allergy reactions…

All allergy reactions produce basically the same symptoms.  You can never diagnose an allergy by the effects it produces. None of which helps your friend one iota.  She has an established allergy, and unless she takes some specific steps to help herself she will be dead long before any political action against soya can take effect.  Ovarian cancer is 100% fatal if untreated and every day counts.  I would suggest that, as well as seeing an allergist, she should get a referral to the best anaesthesiologist she can possibly find; anaesthesia is presumably the main reason the surgery is too hazardous, but good anaesthetists are well able to deal with metabolic or allergic idiosyncrasies.  Almost all anaesthetics in common use cause lethal reactions in some fraction of the people they’re used on; this is a well-understood problem and a good doctor can handle it.  If you can’t find anyone local, I repeat, please get in touch with me by phone or email and I’ll try to put you in touch with someone who can help. *You don’t have much time to spare*.  Please drop the political discussion for now and get on with saving your friend’s life. –> email to "jc" at the site in the "From:" line: mail to "jack" bounces <– Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html  food intolerance data and recipes, freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources

Response:

In article <35dcf8d6.146887…@news.easynet.co.uk>, jral…@easynet.co.uk (J Ralph Blanchfield) wrote: >Hello Robert and Everyone, >Robert seems to be as offended by some of my response comments as I >was by his original false accusation. Before this escalates,  let’s >"cool it".

Dated and stale prose.  You should get a facelift for your teletype, dear. >Robert. you  now appear to be switching to "distinctive labelling" in >respect of allergens (I won’t ignore that topic, see later)– and >that impression is created by your omitting to quote your paragraph to >which my "distinctive labelling" was a response.

Anyone who has read my previous posts in this group (outside of this thread) will know that I am not switching anything.  Proper nettiquette dictates shortening the quotes; as a rule I try to leave only enough to remind the reader what subject was under discussion.  If you want to read what was previously written, you can scroll back in your newsreader or look in deja news (http://www.dejanews.com). >Properly quoted it is >Robert — >>>When we go to the store we need to be sure that we are not >>>getting a rice that is "improved" with maize and fruit fly >>>genes.  

I still agree with that paragraph. >Ralph — >>Distinctive labelling, as is now mandatory in EU Member States, takes >>care of that. >I thinkon reflection you will agree that your original comment and my >"distinctive labelling" response were both in respect of GM crops and >food products made from them. You asked me to elaborate, so —

I have no idea what you are talking about.  Is General Motors in the soya business? >Distinctive EU labelling of GM foods was agreed in principle last >year, but was followed by (too) lengthy bickering among the >politicians of the various Member States, about detailed provisions of >the EU legislation.  Regulation 1139/98 was finally adopted on 26 May >1998. (For those unfamiliar with EU legislative terminology, whereas a >Directive has to be implemented subsequently by national legislation >in each Member state, an EU Regulation _itself_ takes effect in each >Member State).

Notice how the style here is completely different.  It was written by a different person; probably lifted verbatim from a search on the net. >The labelling requirement applies to GM soya or maize and products >containing them as ingredients.

Does it apply to all foods or only to soya and maize? >Using soya flour to illustrate, it >requires declaration as >"soya flour (produced from genetically modified soya)" or >"soya (genetically modified) flour" or >"soya * flour" with a footnote, in print at least as large, >" * genetically modified" or >" * produced from genetically modified soya".

Just telling me that something is "genetically modified" isn’t really much help, since I expect rather soon everything we eat is going to be genetically modified.  We need to be very specific about which modification has been made.  Perhaps these modifications even need to be patented and regulated so that we can read on the label of the package "Registered soy genetic modification 12345 (maize and fruit fly genes)."  Then we can start to be scientific about tracking any problems that this particular modification introduces. BTW, "rice with maize and fruit fly genes" is intendend to be a slightly humorous hypothetical example.  How could anyone take that as a serious comment? >Because of justifiable impatience with the prolonged debate among the >politicians, retailers’ associations, both in the UK and across >Europe…

Perhaps some of the reason for the debate is that there is no practical way to implement the regulations? >adopted voluntary practices along similar lines in advance of >the Regulation, and all the major supermarket groups insisted on their >manufacturer suppliers labelling accordingly. Incidentally, two of the >largest groups, Sainsbury and Safeway, have both had cans of >concentrated tomato paste on sale for over two years, prominently >labelled "Produced from genetically modified tomatoes", alongside, and >reportedly outselling,  cans of unmodified concentrated tomato paste.

So what?  People who have the kinds of allergy problems we discuss here can’t use much canned food.  Are you saying that because other people like it, we should eat it too? >But Robert’s new comment, quoted above, clearly switches his >earlier-expressed concern from GM distinctive labelling

I could not possibly have expressed any such concern, because I have no idea what "GM distinctive labelling" is.  Your explanation hasn’t helped much either. >to  that of labelling in relation to allergens;

The name of this newsgroup is "alt.support.food-allergies."   Most reasonable people would realize that I might have been talking about that all along. >"Self advertisement, Robert"? Well, maybe, but justified in the >circumstances.

Why are you defensive about this? I was not complaining about your plug per se, but about your contentention in your previous post that you had no connection with any biotechnology interest, which appeared to contradict your plug.  Perhaps in British English it isn’t a contradiction? >"Out of nowhere", Robert? Hardly.

I didn’t say this. >green beans, peas, lentils. It was Robert who brought rice into the >discussion. (But then,  perhaps you don’t use rice in USA as much as >they do in Japan, where rice allergy is sufficient of a problem to >warrant those research projects).

I brought rice in as a hypothetical example of somthing that was *not* allergenic (unless modified by adding maize and fruit fly genes).  There is no logical connection between what I said and the Japanese research you referenced in your reply.  It does not seem to me as though you understand what I write. >>urban myth, and I accept your explanation for the story. >>However the very persistence of a myth suggests that it >>strikes a cord of uneasiness in people.   >Not necessarily. Someone recounts a garbled story, it is rapidly >repeated on the Internet numerous times, getting increasingly garbled >and changed in the process (I hope no-one is offended if I mention >"Chinese whispers"),

Once again I am completely mystified.  What on earth are you talking about? >then at some future time someone starts the whole >cycle again, posting  a half-remembered travesty of a totally garbled >story, opening with the fateful words "I seem to remember >reading….". This myth has gone through several such cycles since >1995.

What you are describing is one of the more frustrating aspects of the internet.  Still garbled stories are posted for a reason. Sometimes people are paid to post them, in other cases it is because the story strikes some deep emotional insecurity in people.  There are also AI programs which can take other posts and your own responses and mangle them into something that almost makes sense.  The earliest one was known as ELIZA.  It produced a convincing enough online therapist that people would talk to it for hours.  Certain intelligence organizations sometimes use such programs to harrass people they don’t like, or simply for their own amusement.  The pay off is all the time people waste responding to those machine generated posts. It is not too far fetched to suppose that one of those ELIZA-bots would be detailed to jump in at any mention of the soya with nut genes urban legend, and plug IFST hoping to drum up new members. >Robert — >>We all know that >>genetic manipulation is coming, and your selfrighteous and >>simplistic approach to testing for allergy problems is far >>more frightening than the original story. >"Sticks and stones….." Robert?

That’s a standard ELIZA-bot response to somthing it can’t parse, but which it thinks might be hostile… …mcbob

Response:

Hello Robert and Everyone, Robert seems to be as offended by some of my response comments as I was by his original false accusation. Before this escalates,  let’s "cool it". On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 21:14:09 -0700, mc…@well.com (Robert McCharles) wrote: —snip—  Ralph — >>Distinctive labelling, as is now mandatory in EU Member States, takes >>care of that. Robert — >The last time I was in an EU member state I was ill for the whole >month from the food.  I am planning another trip soon, and I don’t >know what "distincive labeling" is.  Would you care to explain this >term, and how it will help me know what foods I need to avoid?

Robert. you  now appear to be switching to "distinctive labelling" in respect of allergens (I won’t ignore that topic, see later)– and that impression is created by your omitting to quote your paragraph to which my "distinctive labelling" was a response. Properly quoted it is Robert — >>When we go to the store we need to be sure that we are not >>getting a rice that is "improved" with maize and fruit fly >>genes.   Ralph — >Distinctive labelling, as is now mandatory in EU Member States, takes >care of that.

I thinkon reflection you will agree that your original comment and my "distinctive labelling" response were both in respect of GM crops and food products made from them. You asked me to elaborate, so — Distinctive EU labelling of GM foods was agreed in principle last year, but was followed by (too) lengthy bickering among the politicians of the various Member States, about detailed provisions of the EU legislation.  Regulation 1139/98 was finally adopted on 26 May 1998. (For those unfamiliar with EU legislative terminology, whereas a Directive has to be implemented subsequently by national legislation in each Member state, an EU Regulation _itself_ takes effect in each Member State). The labelling requirement applies to GM soya or maize and products containing them as ingredients. Using soya flour to illustrate, it requires declaration as "soya flour (produced from genetically modified soya)" or "soya (genetically modified) flour" or "soya * flour" with a footnote, in print at least as large, " * genetically modified" or " * produced from genetically modified soya". There is a 6-month transitional period for products where other forms of wording have been used to indicate the presence of GM ingredients. Because of justifiable impatience with the prolonged debate among the politicians, retailers’ associations, both in the UK and across Europe, adopted voluntary practices along similar lines in advance of the Regulation, and all the major supermarket groups insisted on their manufacturer suppliers labelling accordingly. Incidentally, two of the largest groups, Sainsbury and Safeway, have both had cans of concentrated tomato paste on sale for over two years, prominently labelled "Produced from genetically modified tomatoes", alongside, and reportedly outselling,  cans of unmodified concentrated tomato paste. But Robert’s new comment, quoted above, clearly switches his earlier-expressed concern from GM distinctive labelling to  that of labelling in relation to allergens; and I most certainly will not evade that — on the contrary, although there is no easy solution, I do not believe in "letting the perfect be the enemy of the good" and I am proud that many think that I have personally been instrumental in making this a recognised food safety issue in UK and Europe. The lead was given, at my instigation, by IFST, the professional qualifying body of food scientists and technologists. I was the original drafter of the IFST Position Statement on Food Allergens, which was adopted and published last year. It insisted that industry must regard food allergy as a major food safety issue, dealt with the strict measures and precautions that manufacturers should take in product formulation and in production, and the way in which they should adopt distinctive labelling in regard to the presence of at least the "big eight" and possible the "second eight". It urged legislation, but pending that it made detailed recommendations that manufacturers should voluntarily adopt.  You can see the full text of the IFST Position Statement on the IFST Website at <http://www.easynet.co.uk/ifst/hottop19.htm> A few weeks later the UK Government followed our lead, and the issue is now also actively being pursued as part of the EU Commission’s review of legislation. Subsequently, I wrote a new chapter "Dealing with Food Allergens" for the 4th Edition of the IFST Guide "Food and Drink: — Good Manufacturing Practice: A Guide to its Responsible Management" due out on 1 September, and of which I am the Editor. Previous editions have been the "bible" of  responsible food manufacturers for over a decade, and the new edition will be equally influential. "Self advertisement, Robert"? Well, maybe, but justified in the circumstances. "Out of nowhere", Robert? Hardly. Ralph — >>BTW, plain ordinary unmodified rice is itself a significant food >>allergen, and the best hopes of solving or at any rate alleviating >>that problem, are two major research projects in Japan.

Robert — >Rice is about the most widely tolerated food there is.  Of course >some people are allergic to it.  It is just that peanuts, maize, >dairy, MSG, wheat, yeast and other things are bigger >problems.  (But then then you don’t use as much peanuts >and maize in the EU as we do in the US.

Indeed. That is why I previously wrote >>It is even possible that genetic modification of  known major serious >>allergenic foods could be aimed at removing their allergenicity. What >>about genetically-modified peanut that is no longer allergenic? Many >>life-threathened sufferers would rejoice

I am of course full aware of the "big eight" that are responsible between them or about 80-90 percent of allergies, and also of the "second eight" which includes sesame seeds, sunflower seeds, cottonseed (meal, not oil), poppy seed, molluscs, beans other than green beans, peas, lentils. It was Robert who brought rice into the discussion. (But then,  perhaps you don’t use rice in USA as much as they do in Japan, where rice allergy is sufficient of a problem to warrant those research projects). >>One  is that of  developing  hypoallergenic rice by enzymatic >>treatment (Watanabe et al, 1990).  The other is to develop a >>transgenic rice with a low allergen content (Matsuda and Nakamura, >>1993).

—-snip—- >>Unlike McBob, I have no political agenda. I have no personal or >>business connection whatever with any biotech or genetic modification >>company or interest. I am a scientist who tries to be objective, and >>who happens, through study, to know something about the science >>involved, and also an allergy-sufferer who is particularly interested >>in the science of food allergens. I posted in this thread only to >>dispel the recently quoted urban myth that nut-modified soya was the >>cause of current soya allergy. I am happy to see that Jack agrees with >>me in that matter. >I do agree with you that he nut-modified soya is most likely an >urban myth, and I accept your explanation for the story. >However the very persistence of a myth suggests that it >strikes a cord of uneasiness in people.  

Not necessarily. Someone recounts a garbled story, it is rapidly repeated on the Internet numerous times, getting increasingly garbled and changed in the process (I hope no-one is offended if I mention "Chinese whispers"), then at some future time someone starts the whole cycle again, posting  a half-remembered travesty of a totally garbled story, opening with the fateful words "I seem to remember reading….". This myth has gone through several such cycles since 1995. Robert — >We all know that >genetic manipulation is coming, and your selfrighteous and >simplistic approach to testing for allergy problems is far >more frightening than the original story.

"Sticks and stones….." Robert? Ralph — >>BTW, as a scientist, I give references for the scientific research >>papers that I quote, though I expect that they will be wasted on >>McBob. Robert — >Thank you for lowering this discussion to the level of >personal insult.  I do not expect to look up the references >at the present time, although I will save them in case they >should be on interest later.  They do not relate to my point.

Not intended as an insult. Rather, it appeared obvious from your comments that you had not looked up the three original references. Robert — >I have experienced allergy tests, other people >here in this group have experienced allergy tests, and none >of them are even 90 percent reliable.  The only way to get a handle >on food allergies is to go on a careful elimination diet.

Robert, you persist in confusing testing of _substances for potential allergenicity_  with testing of  _people to find the cause of their personal allergic reactions_. They are two entirely different things. Why are you confusing them?  I find it hard to believe that you cannot perceive the distinction. >Maybe you were lucky, and the tests worked for you.  For a >lot of people they don’t.  

See above. Actually I was very lucky (but not through testing) more than half a century ago, in being able to make, in each case, complete correlation between a series of allergic incidents and exposures to the cause, and thereafter I avoided the causes. That has only failed, in one case, a few times over the intervening years,  through the allergen being present, without my realising it, in a restaurant dish. Robert– – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Actually I am a trained engineer with a PhD, and I have studied >scientfic methodologies in a good university as well as being an >allergy sufferer.  I assure you that I am just as critical about >pseudo science in the computer industry as I am in the food >industry.  My

… read more »

Response:

In article <35ddf8e0.146897…@news.easynet.co.uk>, jral…@easynet.co.uk (J Ralph Blanchfield) wrote: >Hello Jack and Everyone,

<snip> >So you are right and Robert McCharles is right that the test is not >comprehensively perfect. But you are mistaken in writing that "this >test appears to be entirely meaningless". It works for the serious >allergens and thus is meaningful and valuable.  

Another of your fine verbal prestidigitations, Ralph. It only works for *some* serious allergens, and it is therefore meaningless to people who have those particular allergies.  You refuse to attach any significance so this point.   There are many of us who have such allergies, and we are quite justified in being somewhat offended by your arrogant dissmissal of our complaints.  This is how you keep people arguing with you forever.  You really have nothing to say, and no point to make, do you? …mcbob

Response:

Hello Jack and Everyone, On 25 Jul 1998 23:22:23 GMT, j…@purr.demon.co.uk (Jack Campin) wrote:On 25 Jul 1998 23:22:23 GMT, in alt.support.food-allergies Jack wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->jral…@easynet.co.uk (J Ralph Blanchfield) writes: >> Robert McCharles wrote >>> jral…@easynet.co.uk (J Ralph Blanchfield) wrote: >>>> Scientists at >>>> University of Nebraska (probably the world’s number one centre for >>>> scientific research on food allergens) applied a standard test (see >>>> below) and found that the experimental modified soya contained a known >>>> proteinaceous allergen from Brazil nuts >The test, as Ralph described it, involved seeing if the substance was >degraded by digestive enzymes.  If it wasn’t, it was considered suspect. >>> There is no such thing as a standard test which is one hundred >>> percent accurate. >> As nothing in life is one hundred percent certain, that assertion is >> is too pointless and meaningless to warrant discussion. But he is >> confusing this test with testing a person for what s/he is  allergic >> to. This is a test of a _substance_  to see if it is capable of >> provoking the formation of IgE antibodies. >But since there are many substances that provoke IgE reactions on >contact with the lining of the respiratory tract, or with the mouth >and oesophagus, this test appears to be entirely meaningless.  What >conceivable relevance have digestive enzymes got to asthma induced >by airborne particles?  Or to the anaphylactic reactions some people >get before they can even swallow peanut?  Not much comfort that the >stuff isn’t going to provoke an allergic reaction in your intestine >if you’re already dead because of what it’s done on its way there, >is it?

What you have written would be valid _only_   1. _if_ substances which cause IgE reactions on contact the lining of the respiratory tract, or with the mouth and oesophagus, are incapable of causing IgE reactions on ingestion. But the allergens in a substance that act in those locations are in fact also capable of acting in other parts of the body. As far as I am aware, there is none which is incapable of causing an IgE reaction on ingestion. The "worst case" clincher is that the major allergens in peanuts are quite resistant to digestion and would therefore fail the digestibility test. So, if peanut were an unknown food source and were tested by this method, it would be definitely identified as allergenic. or 2. _if_ food substances which cause IgE reactions by inhalation, are incapable of causing IgE reactions on ingestion. It is true that heavy occupational exposure to day-in, day-out to inhalation (conditions not met with in normal consumer circumstances) may _appear_ to fulfil condition 2. The classic is bakers’ asthma from occupational inhalation of wheat flour, yet where many of those affected can eat wheat products without any problem. But that is not to say that wheat products are _incapable_ of causing IgE reactions on ingestion, when indeed we know that wheat is one of the "big eight" allergens.  I know of no food substances which fulfil condition 2. There remains, however, the field about which you have written extensively, Jack,  the oral cavity syndrome involving foods that cross-react with pollen allergies, where the initial sensitisation is to the pollen, and the oral allergy symptoms occur from foods that have allergens that cross-react with pollen allergies.  Well known examples includes ragweed pollen and the various melons; mugwort pollen and celery and various fruits; birch pollen and hazelnuts, apples, and potatoes. Those allergens are digestible, so the digestibility test does not work for them.  But digestible allergens are much less risky than others. So you are right and Robert McCharles is right that the test is not comprehensively perfect. But you are mistaken in writing that "this test appears to be entirely meaningless". It works for the serious allergens and thus is meaningful and valuable.   Regards Ralph ****************************************************************** J Ralph Blanchfield, MBE Food Science, Food Technology & Food Law Consultant Chair, IFST External Affairs Web Editor, Institute of Food Science & Technology IFST Web address <http://www.easynet.co.uk/ifst/> e-mail: <jral…@easynet.co.uk>       ICQ# 6254687. ICQ Web page <wwp.mirabilis.com/6254687> ******************************************************************

Response:

In article <35c618a5.102267…@news.easynet.co.uk>, jral…@easynet.co.uk (J Ralph Blanchfield) wrote: >Hello Everyone, >On Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:47:52 -0700, in alt.support.food-allergies >Robert McCharles wrote >>There is no such thing as a standard test which is one hundred >>percent accurate.   >As nothing in life is one hundred percent certain, that assertion is >is too pointless and meaningless to warrant discussion. But he is >confusing this test with testing a person for what s/he is  allergic >to. This is a test of a _substance_  to see if it is capable of >provoking the formation of IgE antibodies.

This is not just theoretical, if you would look back at some previous posts here you would see that the allergy tests you are using are quite worthless to some of us. The question of whether the substance in and of itself is capable of forming IgE antibodies is not particularly significant.  The important question is whether the substance when prepared as a food, digested and metabolized will provoke a reaction (sometimes several days later).  Some of the reactions are not IgE reactions. >Before the company could act in any way, the result of the testing >also displays the role and capability of science in detecting and >preventing new allergic hazards.  Failure to see that suggests a >political agenda and an attitude of  "my mind is made up, don’t >confuse me with facts"

You are the one who is not looking at the facts. >>Wrong.  There is a need not to insert and copy foreign genes into >>foods. >And there is his political agenda.

I’ve been posting here off and on for months about the poor reliability of allergy tests.   You come out of nowhere and start offering longwinded papers justifying genetic manipulation that barely relate to the topic, and somehow *I* have a political aggenda?  My point is that *because* *we* *know* the allergy tests are not accurate [read this group], we also know that your supposedly scientific  methodology is flawed when applied to testing genetically manipulated food for allergic reactions. If you had read my previous posts you would also know that I have nothing against gene splicing *in* *principle*.  What I wrote sounded stronger only because I was thinking of modifying existing foods, which is what we were talking about.   My major worry is that food labelling (in a previous case the label "organic," in the current case "soya") should not be compromised in a way that confuses people who depend so much on those labels. >Third repetition of "there is no such thing…" McBob evidently >follows the Lewis Carroll "Hunting of the Snark" principle "I have >told you once, I have told you twice, what I tell you three times is >true".

Well, it was intended as humor, but with a point.  Sorry if you didn’t find the repetition humorous.  At least you have read Lewis Carroll, which is a point in your favor/favour. >Distinctive labelling, as is now mandatory in EU Member States, takes >care of that.

The last time I was in an EU member state I was ill for the whole month from the food.  I am planning another trip soon, and I don’t know what "distincive labeling" is.  Would you care to explain this term, and how it will help me know what foods I need to avoid? >BTW, plain ordinary unmodified rice is itself a significant food >allergen, and the best hopes of solving or at any rate alleviating >that problem, are two major research projects in Japan.

Rice is about the most widely tolerated food there is.  Of course some people are allergic to it.  It is just that peanuts, maize, dairy, MSG, wheat, yeast and other things are bigger problems.  (But then then you don’t use as much peanuts and maize in the EU as we do in the US). >One  is that of  developing  hypoallergenic rice by enzymatic >treatment (Watanabe et al, 1990).  The other is to develop a >transgenic rice with a low allergen content (Matsuda and Nakamura, >1993).

I am mystified by this approach.  Instead of helping people to cope with their rice allergy, they want to come up with a new rice that doesn’t cause an allergy.  Even if you had such a thing, cross contamination in production and in the distribution channels would likely render it useless (see the discussion celliacs have about wheat contamination in buckwheat and oats for example). >See remark above about distinctive labelling.

I know you don’t like repetition, but would you please explain for those of us in the US and other non-EU parts of the world just what you mean by "distinctive labelling?"  You certainly didn’t explain it the first time.  I once asked a consuler official here about it, and she couldn’t understand it. >Unlike McBob, I have no political agenda. I have no personal or >business connection whatever with any biotech or genetic modification >company or interest. I am a scientist who tries to be objective, and >who happens, through study, to know something about the science >involved, and also an allergy-sufferer who is particularly interested >in the science of food allergens. I posted in this thread only to >dispel the recently quoted urban myth that nut-modified soya was the >cause of current soya allergy. I am happy to see that Jack agrees with >me in that matter.

I do agree with you that he nut-modified soya is most likely an urban myth, and I accept your explanation for the story. However the very persistence of a myth suggests that it strikes a cord of uneasiness in people.  We all know that genetic manipulation is coming, and your selfrighteous and simplistic approach to testing for allergy problems is far more frightening than the original story. >BTW, as a scientist, I give references for the scientific research >papers that I quote, though I expect that they will be wasted on >McBob.

Thank you for lowering this discussion to the level of personal insult.  I do not expect to look up the references at the present time, although I will save them in case they should be on interest later.  They do not relate to my point. I have experienced allergy tests, other people here in this group have experienced allergy tests, and none of them are even 90 percent reliable.  The only way to get a handle on food allergies is to go on a careful elimination diet. Maybe you were lucky, and the tests worked for you.  For a lot of people they don’t.  You are ingnoring everything else that has been said in this group in order to promote genetic manipulation in food using a test that we know is flawed to demonstrate the safety.  You sound not like a scientist, but rather more like what we in the US would call a Philladelphia Lawyer. >>As I think I mentioned before, >>there isn’t one…" >Repeating his mantra ad nauseam, McBob goes one better than Lewis >Carroll. "What I tell you four times is true"!

Actually I am a trained engineer with a PhD, and I have studied scientfic methodologies in a good university as well as being an allergy sufferer.  I assure you that I am just as critical about pseudo science in the computer industry as I am in the food industry.  My favorite quote regarding scientific truth comes from the fourth century Chinese Engineer named Ma Chun who said "Empty arguments with words cannot in any way compare with a test which will show practical results." Anyone who has food allergies has had an earful of lofty sounding bad advice from people you’d think would know something.  The problem is that allergies are extremely individual.  We all have to learn how to do our own careful tests, and respect our own results above what the doctor/nutritionist/ or self-appointed expert tells us is good for us.   That is the only way we can ever get better. >****************************************************************** >J Ralph Blanchfield, MBE >Food Science, Food Technology & Food Law Consultant >Chair, IFST External Affairs >Web Editor, Institute of Food Science & Technology >******************************************************************

To my eye this self-advertisment you inserted at the end of your post contradicts an asertion in the body of your message. At the risk of proving your point, I repeat it: >I have no business connection whatever with any biotech or genetic >modification company or interest. I am a scientist who tries to be >objective, and who happens, through study, to know something about >the science involved,..

…mcbob (Robert H. McCharles PhD. EECS)

Response:

A friend of ours is asthmatic and was vegetarian until recently She suddenly got much worse We’ve now found out she was allergic to Soya Most asthma inhalers use Soya in the propellant Most vegetable oil (in almost ALL prepared food) contains cheap Soya oil Most flour is bulked out with cheap Soya flour Her lungs are a wreck Now she has osteoporosis from all the steroids for the asthma Which also exacerbated a weight problem Finally she now has ovarian cancer requiring major surgery, but unless her asthma can be stabilised she cannot undergo the surgery Is there anyone out there who knows enough about the asthma caused by Soya allergy to offer help and advice – there seems to be little experience over here as Soya allergies became a growing problem in the USA when you made genetically engineered Soya to make it cheaper to grow Now the USA is exporting it’s deadly crop Is there someone who can redress the balance and help her? br…@crazygirls.org

Response:

Pity you’re not in England – you could visit her and tell her she didn’t exist! Luckily, in spite of those who’ve tried to make this into a pseudo-political argument, some of the replies actually DID produce help On advice from other posters she has managed to get put on a new drug and cut out wheat and nut products as well as Soya which she had already done Result: Her peak flow is now up from 200 to 450 (as of last night) Brian – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dwight Shack wrote in message <35B97A1D.5DEB8…@silver-bayou.com>… >I’m starting to think there is no "friend" but that this was a way to put >across a political agenda. >Robert McCharles wrote: >> In article <35bcba96.80279…@news.easynet.co.uk>, >> jral…@easynet.co.uk (J Ralph Blanchfield) wrote: >> >Hello "Demon UK" and Everyone, >> >Scientists at >> >University of Nebraska (probably the world’s number one centre for >> >scientific research on food allergens) applied a standard test (see >> >below) and found that the experimental modified soya contained a known >> >proteinaceous allergen from Brazil nuts (Nordlee et al, 1995). >> There is no such thing as a standard test which is one hundred >> percent accurate. >> >The >> >company concerned (Pioneer Hi-Bred) reported these findings publicly >> >and discontinued the Brazil nut/soybean research programme. >> Which is to their credit. >> >This represents a straightforward case of preventing the introduction >> >of a known allergen. >> I don’t see any prevention here.  The company displayed an unusual >> sensitivity; a person might suspect they are ripe for a takeover. >> >The testing of genetically modified products for >> >suspected allergens is done by an IgE test with serum from sensitive >> >individuals [e.g. Herian et al (1990)]. >> I repeat that there is no such thing as a one hundred percent >> accurate test. >> >However, there is also a need to test products where genes have been >> >inserted, copied from sources not known to be allergenic. >> Wrong.  There is a need not to insert and copy foreign genes into >> foods.  There is no such thing as an accurate allergy test, and >> who knows what non-IgE sensitivities may turn up years later. >> When we go to the store we need to be sure that we are not >> getting a rice that is "improved" with maize and fruit fly >> genes.  Otherwise the only way we (food allergy sufferers) >> are going to survive is by a massive rejection of all >> commercially grown food.  We already have to reject nearly >> all processed food. >> >Astwood et >> >al (1996) have developed a method. Stability of a protein or protein >> >fragments to digestion in simulated gastric fluid (SGF) is used to >> >assess the potential allergenicity of a protein. >> This sounds even less credible than the IgE blood tests in >> terms of its potential accuracy.  You are looking for a >> cheap, simple and reliable test so that you can modify >> our food with impunity.  As I think I mentioned before, >> there isn’t one… >> …mcbob >– >D. Shack >——————— >visit the Zydeholics Anonymous webpage at >http://www.silver-bayou.com/cz >Visit the alt.culture.cajun Rogue’s Gallery at: >http://www.silver-bayou.com/cz/photo.htm

Response:

"Demon UK" <c…@crazygirls.demon.co.uk> writes: > A friend of ours is asthmatic and was vegetarian until recently > She suddenly got much worse > We’ve now found out she was allergic to Soya > Most asthma inhalers use Soya in the propellant > Most vegetable oil (in almost ALL prepared food) contains cheap Soya oil

So, she shouldn’t eat commercially prepared foods.  This is pretty normal for allergic people. > Most flour is bulked out with cheap Soya flour

This I very much doubt; in the EU, soya is not cheap enough to use that way.  At any rate organic wholemeal flour is easy enough to come by. BUT your friend’s reaction seems so bad there must be something else going on, like maybe another primary or secondary food intolerance (wheat being one of the more obvious ones to consider). > Is there anyone out there who knows enough about the asthma caused by > Soya allergy to offer help and advice –

One kind of allergic asthma is very much like another, and all are treated in the same way. > there seems to be little experience over here as Soya allergies became > a growing problem in the USA when you made genetically engineered Soya > to make it cheaper to grow

This sounds like paranoid wishful thinking.  Soy allergy as a public health problem long predates genetic modification. > Now the USA is exporting it’s deadly crop

But not to the UK in significant quantities; consumer resistance has had a substantial effect. > she now has ovarian cancer requiring major surgery, but unless her > asthma can be stabilised she cannot undergo the surgery > Is there someone who can redress the balance and help her?

I can suggest a private nutritional medicine specialist if you tell me what part of the UK she lives in (NHS provision for this sort of thing is wildly patchy).  However: the problems you posted are so difficult, and there’s so little time to do anything about them, that I don’t think anyone could promise much certainty of success, unless the ovarian cancer is proving unusually controllable by non-surgical measures.  For this kind of problem, private treatment doesn’t mean US-style extortion; nobody in the business is making much on it and most would prefer to be doing it under the NHS if it were possible. –> email to "jc" at the site in the "From:" line: mail to "jack" bounces <– Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html  food intolerance data and recipes, freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources

Response:

Thanks I’m forwarding this direct to her – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->None of which helps your friend one iota.  She has an established allergy, >and unless she takes some specific steps to help herself she will be dead >long before any political action against soya can take effect.  Ovarian >cancer is 100% fatal if untreated and every day counts.  I would suggest >that, as well as seeing an allergist, she should get a referral to the >best anaesthesiologist she can possibly find; anaesthesia is presumably >the main reason the surgery is too hazardous, but good anaesthetists are >well able to deal with metabolic or allergic idiosyncrasies.  Almost all >anaesthetics in common use cause lethal reactions in some fraction of the >people they’re used on; this is a well-understood problem and a good doctor >can handle it.  If you can’t find anyone local, I repeat, please get in >touch with me by phone or email and I’ll try to put you in touch with >someone who can help. >*You don’t have much time to spare*.  Please drop the political discussion >for now and get on with saving your friend’s life. >–> email to "jc" at the site in the "From:" line: mail to "jack" bounces <– >Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 >http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html  food intolerance data and recipes, >freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources

Response:

I’m starting to think there is no "friend" but that this was a way to put across a political agenda. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Robert McCharles wrote: > In article <35bcba96.80279…@news.easynet.co.uk>, > jral…@easynet.co.uk (J Ralph Blanchfield) wrote: > >Hello "Demon UK" and Everyone, > >Scientists at > >University of Nebraska (probably the world’s number one centre for > >scientific research on food allergens) applied a standard test (see > >below) and found that the experimental modified soya contained a known > >proteinaceous allergen from Brazil nuts (Nordlee et al, 1995). > There is no such thing as a standard test which is one hundred > percent accurate. > >The > >company concerned (Pioneer Hi-Bred) reported these findings publicly > >and discontinued the Brazil nut/soybean research programme. > Which is to their credit. > >This represents a straightforward case of preventing the introduction > >of a known allergen. > I don’t see any prevention here.  The company displayed an unusual > sensitivity; a person might suspect they are ripe for a takeover. > >The testing of genetically modified products for > >suspected allergens is done by an IgE test with serum from sensitive > >individuals [e.g. Herian et al (1990)]. > I repeat that there is no such thing as a one hundred percent > accurate test. > >However, there is also a need to test products where genes have been > >inserted, copied from sources not known to be allergenic. > Wrong.  There is a need not to insert and copy foreign genes into > foods.  There is no such thing as an accurate allergy test, and > who knows what non-IgE sensitivities may turn up years later. > When we go to the store we need to be sure that we are not > getting a rice that is "improved" with maize and fruit fly > genes.  Otherwise the only way we (food allergy sufferers) > are going to survive is by a massive rejection of all > commercially grown food.  We already have to reject nearly > all processed food. > >Astwood et > >al (1996) have developed a method. Stability of a protein or protein > >fragments to digestion in simulated gastric fluid (SGF) is used to > >assess the potential allergenicity of a protein. > This sounds even less credible than the IgE blood tests in > terms of its potential accuracy.  You are looking for a > cheap, simple and reliable test so that you can modify > our food with impunity.  As I think I mentioned before, > there isn’t one… > …mcbob

– D. Shack ——————— visit the Zydeholics Anonymous webpage at http://www.silver-bayou.com/cz Visit the alt.culture.cajun Rogue’s Gallery at: http://www.silver-bayou.com/cz/photo.htm

Response:

Question:

Doctors have cautioned that while exercise is a good thing, you should stop exercise prior to inducing symptoms (e.g. hightened wheeziness, lung pain). I’m new to asthma and am trying to get fitter and lose weight in hopes of improving things.  I find wheezyness comes and goes during the course of a one hour walk.  If I have about a half hour on the flat before taking on hills, wheezyness is milder on the uphill.  If I’m faced with a hill before much warm-up my breathing gets pretty loud and I have to stop often, but it mellows out eventually. I’ve never had an "attack" where I felt at risk of having no air. If I stopped because of wheezing, I wouldn’t get very far.  Should I be worried?

Asthmatics, for a lot of reasons, don’t tend to breathe very well in general. So, when exercising, it is sometimes difficult to distinguish between just breathing hard, and an attack.  Do you have a peak flow meter?  If, when you are exercising, your PFs take a drop, that is an indication that you are having an attack, and not just breathing hard. Chris Owens

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trot, not necessarily. But, it is something that should be discussed with your doctor. The interesting thing about exercise-induced asthma is that, once the original attack has occurred (15 minutes after the acivity has started), subsequent attacks, during exercise, are less frequent. A good reason to allow for adequte warm up.

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Doctors have cautioned that while exercise is a good thing, you should stop exercise prior to inducing symptoms (e.g. hightened wheeziness, lung pain).

I’m new to asthma and am trying to get fitter and lose weight in hopes of improving things.  I find wheezyness comes and goes during the course of a one hour walk.  If I have about a half hour on the flat before taking on hills, wheezyness is milder on the uphill.  If I’m faced with a hill before much warm-up my breathing gets pretty loud and I have to stop often, but it mellows out eventually. I’ve never had an "attack" where I felt at risk of having no air. If I stopped because of wheezing, I wouldn’t get very far.  Should I be worried?

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Swimming. I don’t know if anyone else has run into this but a friend and I went swimming a bit in the ocean on a cloudy day and both of us had problems with our asthma (shortness of breath and some wheezing) and had to stop. It might have had something to do with the dampness of the day and the exertion which caused us problems.

I have tried swimming repeatedly but have found that either the ocean air (could be ozone related, I don’t know) or the chemical fumes from pools did cause enough problems to make swimming not practical for me. This past weekend I tried swimming in a lake and found that I could actually swim there.  Now, the muscles used in swimming aren’t what they used to be so it would take a while to get back in shape for this, but looks as if I could actually do this.  The obvious problems are lack of a lake close by and winter swimming it out.  <sigh I’ll keep looking.  For now what works for me is walking. Loki

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We all know that exercise in one form or another is supposed to be good for us.  Is there actually any scientific evidence that exercise is beneficial for asthmatics; and if so, what is the best type of exercise? Jeff. Swimming.

I don’t know if anyone else has run into this but a friend and I went swimming a bit in the ocean on a cloudy day and both of us had problems with our asthma (shortness of breath and some wheezing) and had to stop. It might have had something to do with the dampness of the day and the exertion which caused us problems. ..diane

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I think I said walking and swimming were good exercises for asthmatics… The aim of asthma treatment is NOT to allow asthmatics to engage in aerobic activity. Simply, it’s to control symptoms enough to allow asthmatics to live as normal a life as possible. If this includes wanting to participate in aerobic activities, fine. But, the primary goal is to get the symptoms under control. Fact is, if an asthmatic wants to engage sports activities, depending on the severity of the asthma, a doctor may limit certain activities. These are mostly aerobic. AAAAI released a video tape series, last year, avaiable to doctors and their patients. One, titled: "Asthma and the Athlete" points to what I’ve said. Anaerobic activities are *prefferable* to aerobic. They even give a list of the two. It’s a VERY good idea for any asthmatic to use light aerobics to supplement their anaerobic activity. But, it would be wrong to think that a moderate asthmatic (particularly exercised induced) could start up basketball, or marathon running before getting his/her symptoms under control. Further, sustained activity is harder on the asthmatic lung. The continuous rush of air can dry, and irritate the linning, causing symptoms. Depending on the severity of the asthma, oxygen exchange is also reduced. It takes a fairly healthy lung to sustain an activity such as marathon running. Not saying it can’t be done, but the symptoms must be VERY controlled.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -OK, I’m being a little picky, but… Yes, exercise is benificial to asthmatics.. However, alone, it will not necessarily benifit asthmatics. The important thing is to get one’s asthma under good control first. This can certainly include SOME exercise, but depending on what type of asthma a person has, and the severity, some activities may be restricted at first. Walking and swimming (indoors, no allergens) is great exercise for asthmatics. But, overall, anaerobic activities are preferrable to aerobic. Sprint running as opposed to joging/marathon, football as opposed to basketball, downhill as opposed to cross country skiing, circuit training as opposed to aerobics, and so on. Anaerobic activities allow the person to rest and the lungs to relax. This tends to be much better for asthmatics, overall.

Surely the aim of treatment is to allow asthmatics to undertake aerobic excersise without problems.  IMHO anerobic excesise is harder on the lungs as it involve the body using oxygen faster than the lungs & cv system can shift it (and the metabolic byproducts) around the body. Whereas in a good walk the two are in balance for some time.  And aerobic activity is what helps weight control, also a problem for many people (asthmatic or not). So my vote is for the opposite.  Go for brisk walks in the woods (if you don’t have allergies which will trigger there) or on the moors.  And circuit training should be an aerobic activity.  Otherwise it can’t last for the hour classes here do. PS training for footballers and downhill skiiers involves raising their aerobic fitness.  At one time the record for running to the top of the Empire State building was held by a national downhill ski-team – Poles AFAIK. — Surfer! http://www.nevis-vieww.demon.co.uk http://www.nevis-vieww.demon.co.uk/flash Hopeful anti-spam: alter double ‘w’ to single ‘w’ to view site & send Email.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeffrey, In many cases exercise will probably improve your lung-function by building stronger, healthier lungs. However, what degree of exercise you can safely attempt will depend on how severe your asthma and how much exercise is an attack trigger. Doctors have cautioned that while exercise is a good thing, you should stop exercise prior to inducing symptoms (e.g. hightened wheeziness, lung pain). Otherwise you may be doing more harm than good. Using your bronchodilator five minutes before beginning exercise is also recommended. I wish I had been diagnosed as a child so my @^%$ gym teacher wouldn’t have forced me around the track and always griped at me for my 12minute miles. Thanks for hurting my lungs! grrr.. Dave Anderson — [Reply to e-mail address modified to prevent spamming] We all know that exercise in one form or another is supposed to be good for us.  Is there actually any scientific evidence that exercise is beneficial for asthmatics; and if so, what is the best type of exercise? Jeff.

I totally agree with you about your childhood and running the track. It was miserable for me, but I was led to believe it was because of my weight.  I never would have thought that that was why I always felt like someone was sitting on my chest.

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That’s probably true for a lot of asthmatics, but some of us have a lot of trouble with high humidity — such as in indoor pools — and chlorine, which is used in all public pools. For us, swimming is not all that good a choice.

<grin For those of us who are ‘poor swimmers’ it is probably an even worse choice.

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OK, I’m being a little picky, but… Yes, exercise is benificial to asthmatics.. However, alone, it will not necessarily benifit asthmatics. The important thing is to get one’s asthma under good control first. This can certainly include SOME exercise, but depending on what type of asthma a person has, and the severity, some activities may be restricted at first. Walking and swimming (indoors, no allergens) is great exercise for asthmatics. But, overall, anaerobic activities are preferrable to aerobic. Sprint running as opposed to joging/marathon, football as opposed to basketball, downhill as opposed to cross country skiing, circuit training as opposed to aerobics, and so on. Anaerobic activities allow the person to rest and the lungs to relax. This tends to be much better for asthmatics, overall.

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We all know that exercise in one form or another is supposed to be good for us.  Is there actually any scientific evidence that exercise is beneficial for asthmatics; and if so, what is the best type of exercise?

Well, there are several hundred articles published on the subject.  If asthma attacks during exercise can be controlled, exercise is beneficial to asthmatics in terms of overall health, just like anyone else.  Additionally, exercise for asthmatic children seems to have some benefit in the overall control of asthma. Aerobic exercise that doesn’t set off an attack is best — personally I plump for swimming outdoors in non-cholorinated water, horseback riding, walking the dogs, and gardening.  Your mileage may differ. Chris Owens

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We all know that exercise in one form or another is supposed to be good for us.  Is there actually any scientific evidence that exercise is beneficial for asthmatics; and if so, what is the best type of exercise? Jeff.

Any excercise that improves cardiopulminory performance is considered usefull (this is things like jogging, etc.).  The key is to look for some form of aerobic excercise. Here are some references.  Please note that they are not stating that excercise will produce a significant improvement in asthma – just that excercise is a ‘good thing.’ Pneumologie 1997 Aug;51(8):845-849 [Ambulatory sports in asthma improves physical fitness and reduces asthma-induced hospital stay]. Meyer A, Wendt G, Taube K, Greten H "We conclude from our findings that long-term physical training of adult patients with asthma in an outpatient setting once a week is effective in reducing hospitalisation days as well as in increasing cardiorespiratory fitness." N Z Med J 1992 Jul 8;105(937):253-256 Effects of a physical conditioning programme on asthmatic patients. Robinson DM, Egglestone DM, Hill PM, Rea HH, Richards GN, Robinson SM "In all participants subjective ratings of the ability to perform physical tasks was significantly increased as was the amount of habitual physical activity reported. Although the asthmatics’ bronchial responsiveness to histamine, medication usage and symptom scores did not change, the daily recorded peak expiratory flow (PEFR) increased slightly, and its variability declined. CONCLUSIONS: these findings demonstrate that with proper management severe asthmatics can engage in vigorous circuit training and enjoy the health benefits of regular exercise." Br J Dis Chest 1983 Apr;77(2):147-152 Short-term physical training in bronchial asthma. Bundgaard A, Ingemann-Hansen T, Halkjaer-Kristensen J, Schmidt A, Bloch I, Andersen PK "The training group decreased their use of aerosol from an average of 4.94 puffs per day to 3.41 puffs per day (P less than 0.05). The control group did not change their use of beta 2-agonist aerosol significantly. It is concluded that physical exercise which improves the maximal oxygen consumption decreases the use of beta 2-agonist spray and that heavy exercise is well tolerated by asthmatics." Br J Sports Med 1989 Jun;23(2):115-122 The effect of endurance running training on asthmatic adults. Freeman W, Nute MG, Williams C "The results of this study therefore suggest that endurance running training can improve the aerobic fitness of asthmatic adults, and may reduce the severity of exercise-induced asthma."

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We all know that exercise in one form or another is supposed to be good for us.  Is there actually any scientific evidence that exercise is beneficial for asthmatics; and if so, what is the best type of exercise? Jeff.

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We all know that exercise in one form or another is supposed to be good for us.  Is there actually any scientific evidence that exercise is beneficial for asthmatics; and if so, what is the best type of exercise? Jeff.

Swimming. Kim

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We all know that exercise in one form or another is supposed to be good for us.  Is there actually any scientific evidence that exercise is beneficial for asthmatics; and if so, what is the best type of exercise? Jeff. Swimming. Kim

That’s probably true for a lot of asthmatics, but some of us have a lot of trouble with high humidity — such as in indoor pools — and chlorine, which is used in all public pools. For us, swimming is not all that good a choice.

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Jeffrey, In many cases exercise will probably improve your lung-function by building stronger, healthier lungs. However, what degree of exercise you can safely attempt will depend on how severe your asthma and how much exercise is an attack trigger. Doctors have cautioned that while exercise is a good thing, you should stop exercise prior to inducing symptoms (e.g. hightened wheeziness, lung pain). Otherwise you may be doing more harm than good. Using your bronchodilator five minutes before beginning exercise is also recommended. I wish I had been diagnosed as a child so my @^%$ gym teacher wouldn’t have forced me around the track and always griped at me for my 12minute miles. Thanks for hurting my lungs! grrr.. Dave Anderson — [Reply to e-mail address modified to prevent spamming] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We all know that exercise in one form or another is supposed to be good for us.  Is there actually any scientific evidence that exercise is beneficial for asthmatics; and if so, what is the best type of exercise? Jeff.

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In addition to aerobic exercise to try and help control my diabetes, I am soon going to start lifting weights. Does anyone know whether there is a difference between short, intense workouts for muscle building and longer, more moderate routines for toning?  As far as helping w/ the diabetic condition, I mean. Is it the added muscle mass that helps or is the time spent working out?  If I knew specifically which would help bring blood sugar under control more I could customize my workout accordingly. Thanks…  —–  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web  —–   http://newsone.net/ — Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groups    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts

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Adding muscle mass is the important thing when lifting weights.  More muscle requires more glucose and provides more receptors to receive it. You really want to concentrate on adding muscle mass to the larger muscle groups if you are aiming for better BGs. JMK

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Hi ! I’m a t1 french diabetic, and I alternate lifting weights and biking every week. The best for lowering blood sugar may be stamina exercises (at least for 1 hour). The effects on blood sugar levels last longer than with pure strength exercices. Some physicians say that weight lifting, for medical reasons I couldn’t explain myself, may entail a transitory rise of the blood sugar level. Anyway, the solution would be to do both types of exercices in the same workout session. For example, you can start by lifting weights for 30 mn to 1 hour, then go for biking running, or aerobic for at least 30 mn. Both help anyway. But coupling those different types of exercices helps to keep your heart in good shape, above all. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In addition to aerobic exercise to try and help control my diabetes, I am soon going to start lifting weights. Does anyone know whether there is a difference between short, intense workouts for muscle building and longer, more moderate routines for toning?  As far as helping w/ the diabetic condition, I mean. Is it the added muscle mass that helps or is the time spent working out? If I knew specifically which would help bring blood sugar under control more I could customize my workout accordingly. Thanks…  —–  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the eb  —–   http://newsone.net/ — Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groups    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts made through NewsOne.Net violate posting guidelines, email

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Are  you still feeding your cat the same amount of food? What may have been appropriate for an active indoor/outdoor cat is probably excessive for a soley indoor one. As to toys, what about a suspended mouse that can be ‘jumped and batted’ at? Or a pillar ’scratching post’ with all the *whirly* add ons and platforms? I have seen these up to the ceiling! Heidi Aussie

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My first suggestion would be to change the food to a "light" version.  Most quality food have different foods for various stages of life.  In the adult category they typically have three feed level.  "Regular" for  a regularly healthyactive cat, "Active" which has extra proteins/vitamins etc for an extra active cat and "light" for less active cat.  If your current brand of food doesn’t have these levels I would suggest changing to one that does and get the light version. I have two cats on is 9lbs(Puff) and the other is 18lbs(Gizmo).  I leave Science Diet Feline Maintenance(Regular) out all the time.  At one time Gizmo was 22lbs so I changed them to the "Light" version for about 1 year. Both cats did well and Gizmo lost weight.  Now I have them back on "Maintenance" and both are doing well and maintaining good weight.  Gizmo is a big muscular cat.  The vet says he is in great shape for his build. Robert – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Grey Kitty used to be an indoor/outdoor cat– very active, very lean, and relatively skinny.  He’s now an indoor cat since I’ve moved, but while he’s still somewhat active (likes to chase his toys and my feet), he meows all the time for food and is clearly gaining weight. How do I keep him active?  I try to play with him whenever I’m home, but unfortunately, that’s probably not as often as he’d like. Any suggestions for toys he might like to chase?  I’m waiting on the harness I ordered to arrive– I’d like to take him outside on a leash, because he clearly likes to be outside (stares out the window at the grassy side of the house all day). Thanks! Michele Before you buy.

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My Grey Kitty used to be an indoor/outdoor cat– very active, very lean, and relatively skinny.  He’s now an indoor cat since I’ve moved, but while he’s still somewhat active (likes to chase his toys and my feet), he meows all the time for food and is clearly gaining weight. How do I keep him active?  I try to play with him whenever I’m home, but unfortunately, that’s probably not as often as he’d like. Any suggestions for toys he might like to chase?  I’m waiting on the harness I ordered to arrive– I’d like to take him outside on a leash, because he clearly likes to be outside (stares out the window at the grassy side of the house all day). Thanks! Michele Before you buy.

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Put him on a good quality Lite food to help fight the weight. Keep exercising him, and don’t give in to demands for extra food. If you can, get him a buddy kitten — someone to play with and be a companion when you aren’t there. Just staring out the window doesn’t necessarily mean he’s pining away to go out. They like to watch, and many are quite content with that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Grey Kitty used to be an indoor/outdoor cat– very active, very lean, and relatively skinny.  He’s now an indoor cat since I’ve moved, but while he’s still somewhat active (likes to chase his toys and my feet), he meows all the time for food and is clearly gaining weight. How do I keep him active?  I try to play with him whenever I’m home, but unfortunately, that’s probably not as often as he’d like. Any suggestions for toys he might like to chase?  I’m waiting on the harness I ordered to arrive– I’d like to take him outside on a leash, because he clearly likes to be outside (stares out the window at the grassy side of the house all day). Thanks! Michele Before you buy.

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Are  you still feeding your cat the same amount of food? What may have been appropriate for an active indoor/outdoor cat is probably excessive for a soley indoor one. As to toys, what about a suspended mouse that can be ‘jumped and batted’ at? Or a pillar ’scratching post’ with all the *whirly* add ons and platforms? I have seen these up to the ceiling! Heidi Aussie

Response:

My first suggestion would be to change the food to a "light" version.  Most quality food have different foods for various stages of life.  In the adult category they typically have three feed level.  "Regular" for  a regularly healthyactive cat, "Active" which has extra proteins/vitamins etc for an extra active cat and "light" for less active cat.  If your current brand of food doesn’t have these levels I would suggest changing to one that does and get the light version. I have two cats on is 9lbs(Puff) and the other is 18lbs(Gizmo).  I leave Science Diet Feline Maintenance(Regular) out all the time.  At one time Gizmo was 22lbs so I changed them to the "Light" version for about 1 year. Both cats did well and Gizmo lost weight.  Now I have them back on "Maintenance" and both are doing well and maintaining good weight.  Gizmo is a big muscular cat.  The vet says he is in great shape for his build. Robert – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Grey Kitty used to be an indoor/outdoor cat– very active, very lean, and relatively skinny.  He’s now an indoor cat since I’ve moved, but while he’s still somewhat active (likes to chase his toys and my feet), he meows all the time for food and is clearly gaining weight. How do I keep him active?  I try to play with him whenever I’m home, but unfortunately, that’s probably not as often as he’d like. Any suggestions for toys he might like to chase?  I’m waiting on the harness I ordered to arrive– I’d like to take him outside on a leash, because he clearly likes to be outside (stares out the window at the grassy side of the house all day). Thanks! Michele Before you buy.

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My Grey Kitty used to be an indoor/outdoor cat– very active, very lean, and relatively skinny.  He’s now an indoor cat since I’ve moved, but while he’s still somewhat active (likes to chase his toys and my feet), he meows all the time for food and is clearly gaining weight. How do I keep him active?  I try to play with him whenever I’m home, but unfortunately, that’s probably not as often as he’d like. Any suggestions for toys he might like to chase?  I’m waiting on the harness I ordered to arrive– I’d like to take him outside on a leash, because he clearly likes to be outside (stares out the window at the grassy side of the house all day). Thanks! Michele Before you buy.

Response:

Put him on a good quality Lite food to help fight the weight. Keep exercising him, and don’t give in to demands for extra food. If you can, get him a buddy kitten — someone to play with and be a companion when you aren’t there. Just staring out the window doesn’t necessarily mean he’s pining away to go out. They like to watch, and many are quite content with that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Grey Kitty used to be an indoor/outdoor cat– very active, very lean, and relatively skinny.  He’s now an indoor cat since I’ve moved, but while he’s still somewhat active (likes to chase his toys and my feet), he meows all the time for food and is clearly gaining weight. How do I keep him active?  I try to play with him whenever I’m home, but unfortunately, that’s probably not as often as he’d like. Any suggestions for toys he might like to chase?  I’m waiting on the harness I ordered to arrive– I’d like to take him outside on a leash, because he clearly likes to be outside (stares out the window at the grassy side of the house all day). Thanks! Michele Before you buy.

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Thanks for the information. E. P.

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I agree with Brian.  Also throw in some yoga stretches.  These seem to relieve some of the pain when my IBS flares up.  Get a book or video for beginners and start slowly. Mary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was wondering, although this seems quite obvious but, does exercise really help?  I want to get back to exercising as I used to quite a lot a few years ago before I was diagnosed with CD.  I was wondering if anyone has had any success stories with exercising.  You have said it will increase energy levels but what about my general health with regards to my crohns? I have IBS, not Crohns.  I started exercising seriously a few years ago, could barely run a mile when I started but finished the Boston Marathon a year later. My internals are noticeably better when I’m exercising regularly, things decline when I stop.  Guess what – I’m now exercising religiously.. To the original poster whose husband get’s tired, don’t stop.  Assuming he’s been given the go ahead by his doctor, tell him to stick to it, he’ll go a little farther every day.  Eventually he’ll feel a lack of energy on days that he doesn’t exercise. Have fun, bs

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If done right exercise will be a big help in regards to your crohn’s. The right exercise strengthens your immuinity, increasing your resistance to all forms of damage, decay, bacteria, viruses, and toxins. Host resistance is the key to fighting these diseases. In the mid eighties  Biochemists established that all cell replication in the immune system, and therefore all immune strength, is dependent on availability of the amino acid glutamine.Your immune system usues a ton of it.But your immune cells cannot make glutamine.Only muscle cells can do the job.The more muscle cells you have the more glutamine is produced for your immune system. But when exercising you will also be consuming a lot more air and therefore increasing your oxidative stress , and for us who are already overloaded it is one aspect of exercising we should not ignore. Ken.W  6 Years Med Free!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I was wondering, although this seems quite obvious but, does exercise really help?  I want to get back to exercising as I used to quite a lot a few years ago before I was diagnosed with CD.  I was wondering if anyone has had any success stories with exercising.  You have said it will increase energy levels but what about my general health with regards to my crohns? Neil p.s. I haven’t posted for a few years.  Diagnosed in 1996 (23 years old). I have found getting back to the gym the best thing for my energy level. It will actually increase his energy level, I believe, as it did mine.  Of course there are times when I feel that I just can’t workout because I am just too completely drained, however when I force myself to go, I usually feel better after.  Anyone who doesn’t exercise will feel more tired than they would if they exercised.  I know because I have spent some of my life doing both. Jason My husband wants to exercise, but gets tired easily.  His symptoms are weak enough to give him a paunch, but strong enough to tire him. Any suggestions? E. P.

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I was wondering, although this seems quite obvious but, does exercise really help?  I want to get back to exercising as I used to quite a lot a few years ago before I was diagnosed with CD.  I was wondering if anyone has had any success stories with exercising.  You have said it will increase energy levels but what about my general health with regards to my crohns?

I have IBS, not Crohns.  I started exercising seriously a few years ago, could barely run a mile when I started but finished the Boston Marathon a year later. My internals are noticeably better when I’m exercising regularly, things decline when I stop.  Guess what – I’m now exercising religiously.. To the original poster whose husband get’s tired, don’t stop.  Assuming he’s been given the go ahead by his doctor, tell him to stick to it, he’ll go a little farther every day.  Eventually he’ll feel a lack of energy on days that he doesn’t exercise. Have fun, bs

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I started going back to the gym regularly to counter the affects of my first cycle of pred.  I wanted to try to prevent the bone and muscle loss that comes with its use. I have found that some afternoons I feel totally exhausted and the last thing I want to do is go to the gym.  However, I force myself most days and feel much better because of it.  So, when I arrive home to my family, I am uplifted rather than exhausted.  You can see the obvious benefits of that I’m sure. I also feel like the exercising has helped my Crohn’s condition although doctors may not agree that the exercise is what has helped me, I feel that it has. As a side note:  When I first started going back again, I wasn’t anywhere near as strong as I used to be.  After a month of decent progress, I still believed that my heavy lifting days were over, and that strength must be limited to younger, "healthier" people.  Well, I am now very close to my old lifting weights, and now feel that I can not only reach them again, but plan to exceed them.  To be strong and look buff does not really matter logically in every day life, but it makes a big difference in how I feel, and therefore does make a big diff in my life. Jason

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I was wondering, although this seems quite obvious but, does exercise really help?  I want to get back to exercising as I used to quite a lot a few years ago before I was diagnosed with CD.  I was wondering if anyone has had any success stories with exercising.  You have said it will increase energy levels but what about my general health with regards to my crohns? Neil p.s. I haven’t posted for a few years.  Diagnosed in 1996 (23 years old). I have found getting back to the gym the best thing for my energy level. It will actually increase his energy level, I believe, as it did mine.  Of course there are times when I feel that I just can’t workout because I am just too completely drained, however when I force myself to go, I usually feel better after.  Anyone who doesn’t exercise will feel more tired than they would if they exercised.  I know because I have spent some of my life doing both. Jason My husband wants to exercise, but gets tired easily.  His symptoms are weak enough to give him a paunch, but strong enough to tire him. Any suggestions? E. P.

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I think it help, but very little  (part of it must be mind related – If you like to do sport and you do, you’re happy – gotta go for a bike ride now… weather is beautifull today! Dom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I was wondering, although this seems quite obvious but, does exercise really help?  I want to get back to exercising as I used to quite a lot a few years ago before I was diagnosed with CD.  I was wondering if anyone has had any success stories with exercising.  You have said it will increase energy levels but what about my general health with regards to my crohns? Neil p.s. I haven’t posted for a few years.  Diagnosed in 1996 (23 years old). I have found getting back to the gym the best thing for my energy level.  It will actually increase his energy level, I believe, as it did mine.  Of course there are times when I feel that I just can’t workout because I am just too completely drained, however when I force myself to go, I usually feel better after.  Anyone who doesn’t exercise will feel more tired than they would if they exercised.  I know because I have spent some of my life doing both. Jason My husband wants to exercise, but gets tired easily.  His symptoms are weak enough to give him a paunch, but strong enough to tire him. Any suggestions? E. P.

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I agree too with the "Slow motion" theory for this disease. wirst heart rate monitor are pretty cool tools if he want to learn is limits, and do as much as he can without getting sick. at 26, I hang around 150 pulses [[max]] for long training(2 hours+). 140 pulses is fairly safe. 170 pulses and over, I know that I’ll get some comeback…but I know how to control those now DOm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband wants to exercise, but gets tired easily.  His symptoms are weak enough to give him a paunch, but strong enough to tire him. Any suggestions? E. P.

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Hello, I was wondering, although this seems quite obvious but, does exercise really help?  I want to get back to exercising as I used to quite a lot a few years ago before I was diagnosed with CD.  I was wondering if anyone has had any success stories with exercising.  You have said it will increase energy levels but what about my general health with regards to my crohns? Neil p.s. I haven’t posted for a few years.  Diagnosed in 1996 (23 years old). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have found getting back to the gym the best thing for my energy level.  It will actually increase his energy level, I believe, as it did mine.  Of course there are times when I feel that I just can’t workout because I am just too completely drained, however when I force myself to go, I usually feel better after.  Anyone who doesn’t exercise will feel more tired than they would if they exercised.  I know because I have spent some of my life doing both. Jason My husband wants to exercise, but gets tired easily.  His symptoms are weak enough to give him a paunch, but strong enough to tire him. Any suggestions? E. P.

Response:

I have found getting back to the gym the best thing for my energy level.  It will actually increase his energy level, I believe, as it did mine.  Of course there are times when I feel that I just can’t workout because I am just too completely drained, however when I force myself to go, I usually feel better after.  Anyone who doesn’t exercise will feel more tired than they would if they exercised.  I know because I have spent some of my life doing both. Jason

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband wants to exercise, but gets tired easily.  His symptoms are weak enough to give him a paunch, but strong enough to tire him. Any suggestions? E. P.

Response:

Well its great that he wants to start exercising. I highly recommend it ! but, he has to go slow. Weight resistance exercises is the best way to go. Consistency is a must….20 minutes a day is a lot better than tryin to make up for 3 days missed on the weekend. He also needs to be on a good nutritional program cause exercising will increase his free radical production and being with crohn’s he definitly does not need more of them doing damage to him. Ken.W  6 Years Med Free!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband wants to exercise, but gets tired easily.  His symptoms are weak enough to give him a paunch, but strong enough to tire him. Any suggestions? E. P.

Response:

My husband wants to exercise, but gets tired easily.  His symptoms are weak enough to give him a paunch, but strong enough to tire him. Any suggestions? E. P.

Response:

Hi.  I’m doing physical therapy now to help with endurance and strength.  He has to take it real slow.  If you have insurance I would suggest the PT to help him get started With someone who will be sure he doesn’t hurt himself. UM MOM Susan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband wants to exercise, but gets tired easily.  His symptoms are weak enough to give him a paunch, but strong enough to tire him. Any suggestions? E. P.

Response:

Question:

Can DNCB really be that good and not be widely acknowledged as such?    It is pretty good and is a popular alternative therapy in this country. It is now being used on a widespread basis in Brazil.         Jack

Response:

"… use DNCB weekly as a "pulsing" fashion to maintain immune surveillance, control and resolve OIs, stabilize T-cell populations and stop or impede disease progression." This is an outrageous claim. Are you saying that the weekly use of DNCB will cure opportunistic infections, halt CD4 cell decline and prevent AIDS in someone with HIV? If so, it is even more stunning than the relatively stunning claims made by some of us retroviral users. Can DNCB really be that good and not be widely acknowledged as such? Have there been any large scale clinical trials to determine these hypotheses? AC Kirk

Response:

Finally!! The much exulted Science!! And a minimum of invective. Would that this constituted a shift toward more civilized discourse. Why do I doubt it? But hope springs eternal. Here is a small sample of the research that clearly illustrates the role of DNCB in upregulating the Th1 cell-mediated immune response in humans and mice.

Mice studies clipped…they’re irrelevant to humans. Scads of studies show significant differences in terms of cytokine profile. I do agree that the evidence is strong for HIV infection being controlled by some aspects of a Th1 response. What I have not yet seen is a definitive collection of papers that prove that point. Again, what exactly *is* a Th1 response in humans? The cytokine patterns vary. Judging by IFN-g or IL-4 alone appear to be inadequate. Indeed, a "pure Th1" response and solely a Th1 response (or an inability to mount any Th2 responses) is a detrimental response in allergy, autoimmune diseases , arthritis, helminths (although I question this) (Carter L, Dutton RW, Type 1 and Type 2: A fundamental dichotomy for all T-cell subsets. Curr Opin Imm, 1996;8:336-342). An article you might have posted that at least addressed your point better might have been Romagnani S, et al., Human Th1 and Th2 Subset, Int Arch Allergy Immunol. 1992;99:242-245. It’s a bit dated but still a fascinating read. Kang et al. and Heufler et al. show that Langerhans cells and dendritic cells, when activated by contact sensitizers such as DNCB, secrete IL-12 which is critical for Th1 responses. Cumberbatch M; Gould SJ; Peters SW; Basketter DA; Dearman RJ; Kimber I. Langerhans cells, antigen presentation, and the diversity of responses to chemical allergens. Journal of Investigative Dermatology, 1992   Nov, 99(5):107S-108S.  

Another mouse study (IgG2a is a mouse antibody, not human). In any event, this contradicts the notion that ALL antibody responses are negative. Dearman RJ; Kimber I. Differential stimulation of immune function by respiratory and contact chemical allergens. Immunology, 1991 Apr, 72(4):563-70.  

Another peripherally interesting mouse study… Dearman RJ, Cumberbatch M, Hilton J, Fielding I, Basketter DA, Kimber I. A re-appraisal of the skin-sensitizing activity of 2,4-dinitrothiocyanobenzene. Food Chem Toxicol 35 (2): 261-269 (Feb 1997) Abstract: A debate continues regarding the immunological properties of 2,4-dinitrothiocyanobenzene (DNTB). In some investigations this chemical

This is not DNCB. But anyway, it’s another mouse study… Dearman RJ, Smith S, Basketter DA, Kimber I. Classification of chemical allergens according to cytokine secretion profiles of murine lymph node cells. J Appl Toxicol 17 (1): 53-62 (Jan 1997).

Murine…hmm. Let me guess. They’re not talking about eye drops… At all concentrations tested, the contact allergens isoeugenol and formaldehyde stimulated a Th1-type cytokine secretion profile, whereas a Th2-type pattern was induced following exposure to the chemical respiratory allergens cyanuric

Oh–here’s Fred’s next big therapy. Bathing people with HIV in formaldehyde… Kang K, Kubin M, Cooper KD, Lessin SR, Trinchieri, Rook AH. IL-12 synthesis by human Langerhans cells. Journal of Immunology 1996, Feb 15, 156:1402-1407.

Finally! One study! In vitro study showing Langerhan’s cells can produce IL-12. That’s nice. Nothing about whether DNCB application will do this. And if it does, that this will cause a systemic upregulation of IL-12. Or that that is clinically useful (although I grant that should DNCB increase IL-12 in humans it may enhance its utility as a therapy.) Heufler C, Koch F, Stanzl U, Topar G, Wysocka m, Trinchieri G, Enk A, Steinman RM, Romani N, Schuler G. Interleukin-12 is produced by dendritic cells and mediates T helper 1 development as well as interferon-gamma production by T helper 1 cells. European Journal of Immunology 1996, Apr, 26:659-668.

Another fascinating article about the ability of dendritic cells to produce IL-12. Fine. Nothing about DNCB doing this. Nor that if it does, that the reaction will be systemic. Nor that it will induce an HIV-specific response that helps clear the infection. I think it is a little premature, still, based on the data you’ve presented to date, to tell people to stop all drugs or that your hypotheses (whatever they really are) are correct.                 George M. Carter

Response:

Here is a small sample of the research that clearly illustrates the role of DNCB in upregulating the Th1 cell-mediated immune response in humans and mice. Th1 immunity is essential to the control of HIV and sustained immune competence to protect against almost all of the OIs that are seen in AIDS. In other words, AIDS is a disease of progressively suppressed Th1 (cell-mediated immunity) and a progressively overactive Th2 (antibody) immunity. It is therefore vital to avoid those treatments that: (1) Suppress cell-mediated (Th1) immunity or (2) Activate antibody responses (esp. the     immune activating herbs, mushrooms, etc) Then, it is important to activate the cell-mediated response on a periodic basis (use DNCB weekly as a "pulsing" fashion to maintain immune surveillance, control and resolve OIs, stabilize T-cell populations and stop or impede disease progression). Unfortunately, part of the anti-DNCB misinformation campaign on this Newsgroup claims that the mouse model is useless and offers no correlation to humans (the same individual that makes this claim also discards the in vitro research that contradicts wishful thinking but quickly embraces in vitro research that he believes supports his treatment superstitions). This position alone illustrates a gross lack of basic knowledge in immunology and fails to grasp the fundamental evolutionary relevance of Th1 immune responses in the animal kingdom — and the nearly identical Th1 responses of man and mice. fred Dearman et al. show that CD4s and CD8s in mice, when sensitized to the contact allergen DNCB, "stimulate vigorous interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma) production, but little secretion of the Th2 cytokines interleukin-4 and interleukin-10 (IL-4 and IL-10), whereas the converse pattern is provoked by respiratory allergens." Various articles by Cumberbatch et al. and Dearman et al. show that DNCB initiates Th1 responses. Kang et al. and Heufler et al. show that Langerhans cells and dendritic cells, when activated by contact sensitizers such as DNCB, secrete IL-12 which is critical for Th1 responses. Dearman RJ, Moussavi A, Kemeny DM, Kimber I. Contribution of CD4+ and CD8+ T lymphocyte subsets to the cytokine secretion patterns induced in mice during sensitization to contact and respiratory chemical allergens. Immunology, 1996 Dec, 89:502-510. Abstract: Chemical allergens of different types, those that cause in humans allergic contact dermatitis or occupational asthma, induced in mice divergent immune responses characteristic, respectively, of T-helper 1 (Th1)- and Th2-type cell activation. Such responses are associated with the development of different cytokine secretion patterns by draining lymph node cells (LNC), such that contact allergens stimulate vigorous interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma) production, but little secretion of the Th2 cytokines interleukin-4 and interleukin-10 (IL-4 and IL-10), whereas the converse pattern is provoked by respiratory allergens. Using selective depletion with antibody and complement we have here examined the relative contribution of CD4+ and CD8+ T lymphocytes to the cytokine secretion patterns of draining LNC isolated from mice sensitized to chemical allergens. Mice received repeated topical applications of respiratory allergens, trimellitic anhydride (TMA) or diphenylmethane diisocyanate (MDI), or of contact allergens 2,4-dinitrochlorobenzene (DNCB) or formaldehyde. Thirteen days following the initiation of exposure the production by draining LNC of IL-10, IFN-gamma and mitogen (concanavalin A)-inducible IL-4 was measured by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) after various periods of culture. It was found that the high levels of IL-4 and IL-10 secretion stimulated by TMA or MDI, and the lower levels of these cytokines induced by DNCB or formaldehyde, were in all cases dependent upon the presence of CD4+ cells. In contrast, the comparatively high concentrations of IFN-gamma observed following exposure to contact allergens were found to be derived from CD4+ cells, and in the case of DNCB from CD8+ cells also. The low levels of IFN-gamma induced by treatment with TMA or MDI were associated largely or wholly with CD8+ cells. These data indicate that the type 2 cytokine responses induced to different extents by both contact and respiratory chemical allergens are almost exclusively a function of CD4+ cells, but that IFN-gamma is produced by either CD4+ and CD8+ cells in the case of contact allergens or largely by CD8+ cells in the case of chemical respiratory allergens. Page 508-9: Whatever the nature of the cells involved in early cytokine production and irrespective of the costimulatory signals that favours the selectivity of T lymphocyte responses, it assumed that chemical respiratory allergens such as TMA and MDI provide the stimuli necessary to drive the differentiation of T helper cells toward a preferential, or sometimes possibly exclusive, Th2-type phenotype. From the data presented here it is suggested that what little type 1 responsiveness such chemicals induce is embodied in Tc1-type CD8+ T lymphocytes, but that the inhibitory properties of these cells are outweighed by the promotional signals of Th2 products, such that IgE responses are generated and maintained and immediate-type allergic responses favoured. In contrast, it is suggested that strong contact allergens induce both Th1- and Tc1-type responses and that these cells, acting either alone or in concert, are responsible for effecting contact hypersensitivity reactions. In such circumstances the production of IFN-gamma by Th1 and Tc1 cells outweighs the small amounts of IL-4 produced as the result of a less vigorous Th2-type response, thereby creating conditions that are non-permissive for IgE antibody production. In summary, the quality of immune response induced by chemical allergens is likely to be determined by the relative contribution of functional subpopulations of both CD4+ and CD8+ T lymphocytes. Cumberbatch M; Gould SJ; Peters SW; Basketter DA; Dearman RJ; Kimber I. Langerhans cells, antigen presentation, and the diversity of responses to chemical allergens. Journal of Investigative Dermatology, 1992 Nov, 99(5):107S-108S.   Abstract: Respiratory and contact chemical allergens provoke differential immune responses in mice, stimulating preferentially T helper-2 (TH2) and TH1 cells, respectively. In an attempt to discover whether such differences are effected at the level of antigen handling and presentation we have examined the effect of topical exposure to trimellitic anhydride (TMA), a respiratory allergen, and 2,4- dinitrochlorobenzene (DNCB), a contact allergen, on Langerhans cell (LC) MHC class II (Ia) expression. Neither chemical caused a significant change in LC size. As measured by analytical flow cytometry, exposure to DNCB resulted in a time-dependent increase in LC Ia expression that exceeded 160% of control values within 24 h. Exposure to concentrations of TMA that caused an equivalent activation of draining lymph nodes failed to affect Ia expression by LC. Application of sodium lauryl sulfate at concentrations that caused edema also failed to influence LC Ia. These data demonstrate that TMA and DNCB exert differential effects on epidermal LC, possibly indicative of differences in antigen handling.     Page 107S; We hypothesized that the failure of DNCB to induce IgE antibody was attributable to a preferential activity of TH1 cells and, conversely, that a selective activation of TH2 cells by TMA would be consistent with the ability of this chemical to provoke IgE responses and to cause respiratory hypersensitivity. Support for this hypothesis derived from analysis of the isotype distribution of IgG anti-hapten antibody induced following exposure to these chemicals. IFN-gamma, but not TH2 cytokines, promotes production of the IgG2a isotype. We found that DNCB resulted in a substantially stronger IgG2a than IgG2b antibody response. In contrast, exposure to TMA provided significantly less IgG2a than IgG2b antibody. Subsequent investigations with other chemicals have confirmed that respiratory allergens induce immune response characteristic of the selective activation of TH2 cells, whereas contact allergens that apparently lack the potential for respiratory sensitization stimulate preferentially TH1-type responses. Dearman RJ; Kimber I. Differential stimulation of immune function by respiratory and contact chemical allergens. Immunology, 1991 Apr, 72(4):563-70.   Abstract: The nature of immune responses induced following topical exposure to 2,4-dinitrochlorobenzene (DNCB), a potent contact allergen which lacks the capacity to cause respiratory sensitization, and trimellitic anhydride (TMA), a respiratory allergen with comparatively weak skin-sensitizing potential, have been investigated. Exposure of BALB/c strain mice to concentrations of TMA and DNCB which resulted in equivalent levels of activation (cell proliferation) in lymph nodes draining the site of application (50% TMA and 1% DNCB) induced comparable levels of contact sensitization and IgG anti-hapten antibody production. However, under these conditions, exposure only to TMA resulted in an elevation of serum IgE. Furthermore, while TMA induced IgG2b rather than IgG2a antibody the reverse pattern was observed with DNCB. These data demonstrate that TMA and DNCB elicit qualitatively different immune responses which are consistent with their potential to cause respiratory and contact allergy, respectively. The possibility that the responses induced by these chemicals reflect a differential stimulation of T-helper cell subsets (Th1 and Th2) is discussed.     Page 568: If TMA and DNCB … read more »

Response:

Question:

And forgive me for beating a dead issue, but… <from the study "At the end on run-in, one patient from each group was taking regular oral prednisone (Buteyko 18 mg/day; control 7 mg/day). At three months two Buteyko subjects were taking 36, and 20 mg/day and three control subjects took 21,9 and 6 mg/day. At eight months four Buteyko subjects took 70,25,13 and 13 mg/day and two control group subjects took 40 and 50 mg/day. As you may notice I disagree with the researchers conclusion that the rates of oral steroid usage were similar.  

That’s because the difference between two people and four people (or two anythings and four anythings) has low statistical "power"; they should have clarified that the groups cannot be proven to be different *due to the different treatment methods*.  Statistically, it could have been chance.   Not a chance I’d be willing to take, and in fact the study makes a good case against the technique, but chance nevertheless. Scott T.

Response:

That’s because the difference between two people and four people (or two anythings and four anythings) has low statistical "power"; they should have clarified that the groups cannot be proven to be different *due to the different treatment methods*.  Statistically, it could have been chance.   Not a chance I’d be willing to take, and in fact the study makes a good case against the technique, but chance nevertheless.

Sorry Scott, I am not with you there. *IN FACT* how does the study make a good case *against* the technique?!?

Response:

All of this sounds very well and good  ***BUT*** I (for one) know that my asthma is caused by an allergic reaction,  I cannot see that that reaction would be sufficiently modified by breathing techniques.  The two parts of an asthma attack are bronchiospasm and inflamation,  I could see that breathing techniques MIGHT have some effect on the first but not at all on the later.

I don’t think (and probably standard medical theory wouldn’t either as they believe you can grow out of asthma) that you can just say that asthma is caused be allergies. Sure, if you keep away from things that you know you are allergic to then that will lower the chances of an asthma attack, but what we are really after here is a step further back: If allergies cause asthma then it’s pertinent to then ask what causes the allergies – surely! Buteyko points out that low CO2 levels (caused by hyperventilation) will cause the immune system to become hypersensitive to external stimuli.  Isn’t this the condition of allergic reaction? In my treatment of my asthma I have found that when I correctly take my Aerobid then the attacks are less frequent and less severe, while if I just go with my Albuterol  (which stops an attack but does nothing for inflamation) then the frequency and severity of the attacks does not change.

Less frequent and less severe are a bonus but my question is how do you eradicate them altogether. I am not interested in a life dependent on drugs as a solution. The solution is complete health – surely.

Response:

Remember that one of the conclusions from the Bisbane trial was that Buteyko may simply reduce _preceived_ symptoms rather than control the underlying inflamation. Colin for God’s sake. If you can find a way to objectively measure _non perceived_ symptoms you *may* be a genius.:-))) You mean like peak flow measurement?  And the _objective_ measurements used in the Bisbane trials?

Peak flow measures nothing but…er….peak flow. How is peak flow a _non preceived_ symptom of anything?? It just means if you breathe out at that maximum rate for a whole minute you would expel XXX litres of air from your lungs.  You’d have to prove to me the benefit of a breathing at that rate before I can take that measurement seriously. If you breathe out at that rate for a whole minute it would probably kill you! I agree that some of the _objective_ measurements in the Brisbane trials, especially the min. vols were unreliable. The ET CO2 measurements, though, pointed out that *both* of  the asthmatic groups had a much lower ET CO2 compared to the normal group. Surely a symptom of long term over-ventilation – as Buteyko says. Bill Ellis Fleenor posted an intersting article about treatment for hyperventilation earlier: Home treatment–If the person breathes into a paper bag, so that carbon dioxide is taken back into the lungs…. symptoms will be alleviated. This usually requires 5 to 15 minutes with a small paper bag held loosely over both the nose and mouth. This isn’t always as easy as it sounds because a major feature of the hyperventilation syndrome is panic and a feeling of impending suffocation…..

Do these feelings remind anyone of an asthma attack? The same sypmtoms as hyperventilation. Buteyko points out that asthma is caused by long-term over-ventilation and can be corrected by simply breathing at the correct (normal) rate 4-6 Ltrs./Min. AND there are plenty of people on alt.support.asthma.buteyko  who will gladly tell you of their experience of using the Buteyko method if you ask them. see http://www.cix.co.uk/~reardo/buteyko.htm for some background on the Buteyko method.

Response:

The problem with the Brisbane trial is that Colin says it proves that the Buteyko method doesn’t work.  Its funny how the actual researchers who conducted the trials can’t reach the same conclusions as Buteyko.  

I never said that the trial proved that Buteyko dosen’t work (how can you prove a negative?). Please post a quote where I said this.  Otherwise, post what I said – not what you wish I said. But if we actually look at the objectives in the trial protocol – which were to see if Buteyko reduces bronchodilator use and then if it does see if it can reduce steriods usage.  We can see Buteyko as a success on average each person reduced their  bronchodilator usage by 90%, thus their symptoms and also achieved a 24% reduction in steriods at the conclusion of the trial in mid winter.  Comparing this to the control group which showed an increase in bronchodilator medication – we have to say that the objectives as laid out in the protocol were successful.

The reduction was in inhaled steroids only.  Oral steroid usage for the Butekyo group was roughly double the control group at the end of 8 months.   <from the study "At the end on run-in, one patient from each group was taking regular oral prednisone (Buteyko 18 mg/day; control 7 mg/day). At three months two Buteyko subjects were taking 36, and 20 mg/day and three control subjects took 21,9 and 6 mg/day. At eight months four Buteyko subjects took 70,25,13 and 13 mg/day and two control group subjects took 40 and 50 mg/day. This argument that we are only making the  reduce _preceived_ symptoms disappear is once again the bright idea of alt.asthma.support.  Its funny how all the asthma researchers in Australia and New Zealand don’t use the same kind of flawed logic as alt.asthma.support when evaluating the Buteyko method.

Again, quoting from the study: "BBT might alter subject perceptions of asthma severity without affecting the underlying disease severity. This could account for reduction in medication use and improvements in quality of life, and is consistent with the absence of any change in objective measures of airway calibre. On the other hand, the reduction in medication usage in the Buteyko group did not result in a significant decline in lung function and rates of oral steroid usage and hospital admission were similar in each group." As you may notice I disagree with the researchers conclusion that the rates of oral steroid usage were similar.   Instead, they use this logic that people treated with Buteyko have hyperventilation not asthma.  These people base this on the fact that they have never met me, never looked at any of the measures of my charts, peakflows, chest x-rays, symptoms etc.  Yet, in all the years that I have been hospitalised for asthma, responded to medication, been under the care of respiratory specialists (American equivalent – cardiologists), GPs, read books on asthma they failed to diagnose my asthma as hyperventilation but Colin from alt.asthma.support can.  I’m sorry can’t they see how flawed and ludricrous this argument is.

Have you actually _read_ the articles we refered you to regarding Hyperventilation Syndrome and asthma? BTW, the Bisbane trial pretty much shot down the basic premise of Butekyo theory (that people with asthma breathe too much). Care for me to post the relevant text from the trial? Also, how do you explain away the lack of patient improvement when based on objective measurements of airway performance?  Since all the current scientefic research agrees that asthma is an inflamitory disease, and the Bisbane trial indicated that Buteyko does _not_ improve airway inflamation – I suggest that everybody with asthma remain under the care of _real_ doctors. BTW, since you are a Butekyo practicioner can you please explain to us what your medical credentials are?  Are you a doctor who specalizes in asthma?  Are you even a doctor?  Do you have a license to practice in any of the medical fields? ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers.

Response:

Remember that one of the conclusions from the Bisbane trial was that Buteyko may simply reduce _preceived_ symptoms rather than control the underlying inflamation. Colin for God’s sake. If you can find a way to objectively measure _non perceived_ symptoms you *may* be a genius.:-)))

No, he’d be holding a peak flow meter, or a spirometer, or standing next to some other measure of lung function tests that were no doubt mentioned in the "methods" section of any self-respecting asthma research, and which keep "poor percievers" from preventing fatal attacks. Scott T."hank you for helping me illustrate this potentially fatal misconception that many people have about their asthma (lack of outward symptoms=/=cure.)"

Response:

Remember that one of the conclusions from the Bisbane trial was that Buteyko may simply reduce _preceived_ symptoms rather than control the underlying inflamation.

The problem with the Brisbane trial is that Colin says it proves that the Buteyko method doesn’t work.  Its funny how the actual researchers who conducted the trials can’t reach the same conclusions as Buteyko.   But if we actually look at the objectives in the trial protocol – which were to see if Buteyko reduces bronchodilator use and then if it does see if it can reduce steriods usage.  We can see Buteyko as a success on average each person reduced their  bronchodilator usage by 90%, thus their symptoms and also achieved a 24% reduction in steriods at the conclusion of the trial in mid winter.  Comparing this to the control group which showed an increase in bronchodilator medication – we have to say that the objectives as laid out in the protocol were successful. This argument that we are only making the  reduce _preceived_ symptoms disappear is once again the bright idea of alt.asthma.support.  Its funny how all the asthma researchers in Australia and New Zealand don’t use the same kind of flawed logic as alt.asthma.support when evaluating the Buteyko method. Instead, they use this logic that people treated with Buteyko have hyperventilation not asthma.  These people base this on the fact that they have never met me, never looked at any of the measures of my charts, peakflows, chest x-rays, symptoms etc.  Yet, in all the years that I have been hospitalised for asthma, responded to medication, been under the care of respiratory specialists (American equivalent – cardiologists), GPs, read books on asthma they failed to diagnose my asthma as hyperventilation but Colin from alt.asthma.support can.  I’m sorry can’t they see how flawed and ludricrous this argument is.   Regards Robert Stark                     |  PO BOX 1458 Buteyko New Zealand             /   Hastings http://www.buteyko.co.nz          /    New Zealand 4215 email me if you want to join      / the Buteyko database mailout |_-_   Phone: (646) 878 0101                                          |  Fax: (646) 878 0103

Response:

Point taken, but just look at innovations in medical history.  Lister introduced antiseptic surgery (whether he was the first I don’t know) but even years afterwards relations of patients would go to hospitals to see that surgeons washed their hands properly because the surgeons were slow to adopt the new method. Having a good personal relationship with one’s own doctor and giving him full confidence is fine, but thinking about the future of asthma treatment generally is another matter.

All of this sounds very well and good  ***BUT*** I (for one) know that my asthma is caused by an allergic reaction,  I cannot see that that reaction would be sufficiently modified by breathing techniques.  The two parts of an asthma attack are bronchiospasm and inflamation,  I could see that breathing techniques MIGHT have some effect on the first but not at all on the later. In my treatment of my asthma I have found that when I correctly take my Aerobid then the attacks are less frequent and less severe, while if I just go with my Albuterol  (which stops an attack but does nothing for inflamation) then the frequency and severity of the attacks does not change. "The answer to fear can’t always be in the dissipation of its cause;sometimes it lies in courage." Oppenheimer

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that you should re-read the articles.  There is a clear distinction between hyperventilation syndrome and asthma.  Asthma is an inflamitory disorder, while hyperventilation syndrome is a breathing disorder.  Breathing excercises would probably be effective for hyperventilation but would be inneffective for asthma. The Buteyko supporters appear to be unable to distinguish between the two disorders. Yet again Colin you are mistaken.  Buteyko distinguishes between the two diseases hence the treatment for hyperventilation is different for the treatment for asthma.  I am sill yet to find  any evidence for your claim that Buteyko breathing exercises would be ineffective for asthma. Considering the Brisbane trials showed a 90% reduction in bronchodilator use and symptoms within 6 weeks of learning Buteyko – I can see no validity for your claims.  This certainly showed some effectiveness if not a majorbreak through in the treatment of asthma. The asthmatics in the Brisbane trials had asthma.  I base this on the fact that all subjects had a clinical history of asthma, they had a wide variety of different types of asthma, asthma ranged from occupational asthma, EIA, cough variant asthma to asthma induced by allergies.  Many of the subjects were under respiratory specialists.  All showed low peakflows.  As in the protocol, the trial was to prove it was effective for all asthmatics so it showed it was effective in all types of asthma. Robert Stark                     |  PO BOX 1458 Buteyko New Zealand             /   Hastings http://www.buteyko.co.nz          /    New Zealand 4215

I found an interesting writeup on ‘Hyperventilation Syndrome’ in the well know book ‘Take Care of Yourself’, 6th Ed, by Donald Vickery, MD & James Fries, MD, c96 Addison Wesley It mentions that anxiety can lead to this disease. Quoting "In this syndrome a nervous or anxious person becomes concerned about his or her breathing & feels unable to get enough air into the lungs…often associated with chest pain or tightness…leads to overbreathing and a lowering of the carbon dioxide level in the blood…symptoms of numbness and tingling of the hands and dizziness…may extend to the feet and mouth…occasionally muscle spasms in the hands….This syndrome is almost always a disease of young adults [ages 15-40]. While more common in women, it is also frequently seen in men… However, hyperventilation is also a natural response to severe pain….. Home treatment–If the person breathes into a paper bag, so that carbon dioxide is taken back into the lungs….symptoms will be alleviated. This usually requires 5 to 15 minutes with a small paper bag held loosely over both the nose and mouth. This isn’t always as easy as it sounds because a major feature of the hyperventilation syndrome is panic and a feeling of impending suffocation….. Once the person has honestly recognized that the problem is anxiety rather than a disease, the attacks will stop….Having the person voluntarily hyperventilate (50 deep breaths while lying on a couuch) to demonstrate that this reproduces the symptoms of the previous episode is frequently helpful…. If hyperventilation syndrome is diagnosed, the doctor will usually provide a paper bag and the instructions given above. It is seldom possible to deal effectively with the cause of the anxiety during the hyperventilation episode." If the person is under 15 or over 40, the book then refers to another symptom, ‘Shortness of Breath’, which could result in a diagnosis of asthma or emphysema; but if there is tingling in the fingers it refers back to Hyperventilation Syndrome. I ran across a new book ‘Asthma: An Alternative Approach’ c96 by Sammuel Roberts, a naturothpathic practitioner, which mentions Buteyko. The comments I remember were: it seems to work for some asthmatics probably similar to the paper bag technique (see above), it requires relaxation and continuation of asthma meds, it takes 6 lessons which are expensive, and the Brisbane trials resulted in fewer ‘perceived symptoms’ but no actual improvement in lung function tests due to Buteyko exercises. I’m reposting the URL for the article on Asthma versus Hyperventilation Syndrome by the Canadian doctor, Andre Cartier, MD.  http://www.remcomp.com/asmanet/edit9702.html Ellis

Response:

The references about hyperventilation that Ellis posted just prove that there are different causes of asthma…and that asthmatics with a dry, trigger cough might benefit from breathing techniques, but it says nothing about asthmatics with mucous buildup.  It also said that hyperventilation was underdiagnosed…not that all asthma was misdiagnosed.  Just want everyone to bear this in mind. Yana

I think that you should re-read the articles.  There is a clear distinction between hyperventilation syndrome and asthma.  Asthma is an inflamitory disorder, while hyperventilation syndrome is a breathing disorder.  Breathing excercises would probably be effective for hyperventilation but would be inneffective for asthma. The Buteyko supporters appear to be unable to distinguish between the two disorders.

Response:

The references about hyperventilation that Ellis posted just prove that there are different causes of asthma…and that asthmatics with a dry, trigger cough might benefit from breathing techniques, but it says nothing about asthmatics with mucous buildup.  It also said that hyperventilation was underdiagnosed…not that all asthma was misdiagnosed.  Just want everyone to bear this in mind. Yana

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Both conventional and alternative medicine have let asthmatics down, by not looking at the underlying cause of Asthma – Hyperventilation. Breathing is an automatic activity, like your heart beating. Buteyko is designed to teach you how to break free of the asthma cycle and to work on the one factor in the cycle that can be controlled by you – your breathing rate. The exercises are simple but require commitment and effort. You seem to be unable to tell the difference between hyperventelation syndrome and asthma.  Asthma is an inflamitory disease, which is treated with anti-inflamitory medications.  Hyperventilation syndrome is a psycological problem which is treated with breathing excercises. ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers.

I found an interesting editorial (Feb 97) on Hyperventilation & Asthma at Asmanet.  http://www.remcomp.com/asmanet/edit9702.html Here are some excerpts:                 Andr

Question:

I have a severe sensitivity to a chemical common in fragranced products.  My peak flows drops instantly on exposure from 30-50%.  This is from someone simply walking by with an offending product on.  I react to minute amounts.  I have no underlying asthmatic condition. This reaction actually has nothing to do with the odor although the odor of perfume does serve as a warning property.  Once away from the trigger the reaction resolves very quickly, often without use of inhaler if the exposure is very brief. Longer even lower level exposure (below odor detection) such as in room air where people with fragrance products on have been, causes longer lasting problems.  My peak flows drop gradually, become symptomatic when they have dropped about 50%.  May have hoarseness, muscle/joint pain, fatigue, puffiness of hands, and difficulty in thinking clearly. Most symptoms resolve over night but sometimes the chest tightness will not resolve.  It will come and go with exertion and exposure to irritants that normally cause no problems.  Often I will end up with a respiratory infection.  Usually I have to go to the doctor and may end up on prednisone before it clears. Does anyone else have asthma induced only by specific chemicals?  How do you cope?  How does it affect your life?  I am compiling information on asthma that is induced by specific chemicals.  Anyone that is interesting in sharing information please e-mail me. Thanks Betty Bridges

Response:

Those suffering from asthma related to chemical hypersensitivity may want to consider joining the Asthma support group – it is an internet group independent of the alt.support.asthma group.  The primary benefit that it offers is that no salespersons are permitted to join the group and it is a closed, moderated group to protect the asthmatic members already on the group. Therefore, only those who suffer asthma themselves or who are parents, friends, relatives or signifant others in an asthmatic’s life may join. There a number of asthmatics who suffer chemically induced asthma who I am certain would be more than willing to provide information and support to you based on their own experiences. Please contact me if you would like to join, Please note – this invitation is open to all asthmatics or those noted in the description above. ASTHMA Group Coordinator/Listowner/Moderator

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Question:

I have read in latest issue of Natural Way Magazine (I think) about Gingko and supposedly wonderous things it can do for one’s health. It said it can aid in allergies and asthma.   Has anyone had any experience with this herb as it applies to asthma induced by allergies?  Would you mind sharing your experiences with me (email) or with the group? Regards, Bill Newell Interests:                                   Phone: 716-229-2098                                              Work: 716-475-6275 Non-traditional Education                    Fax: 716-475-6500 Distance Learning                                                                          

Response:

: I have read in latest issue of Natural Way Magazine (I think) about : Gingko and supposedly wonderous things it can do for one’s health. : It said it can aid in allergies and asthma.   : : Has anyone had any experience with this herb as it applies to asthma : induced by allergies?  Would you mind sharing your experiences with : me (email) or with the group? : : Regards, : : Bill Newell Such reports as usual suffer from a lack of Yin/Yang theory. Gingko has been used in East-Asian Traditional Healing for a couple of millenia, for lung complaints. The usual part used is the SEED, but use of the leaf is also known. The seed has toxic components–whether the leaf does as well is uncertain. Both forms are NOT for Excess-type asthma, or conditions where phlegm cannot easily be expectorated (sticky phlegm). As for allergies, again, you would have to figure out what that means. —

Response:

Question:

Glad walking works for you.  Unfortunately for me, walking around is like making myself a target, painted "asthma attack, here".  Which is why I invented the concept of the closed door .  . when mine is closed, don’t disturb me for anything less than an emergency — and I decide what is an emergency.  After a few rounds of "the wrath of Chris", my family has learned to let me have my moments of peace.  In fact, they have all taken it up with a vengance, themselves. Chris Owens – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have any of you tried meditation.  I find that taking a half-hour every day to meditate and review the last 24 hours helps a lot with keeping my emotional stress under control.  I have also learned the art of NMP (not my problem).  If I can’t materially contribute to a solution, I file it in this category. Like many people, I would have trouble finding an opportunity to "just sit".  *Something* would be bound to interrupt me…  <sigh  My workaround is to go for walks and try to meditate while walking. Works suprisingly well, plus I get fresh air and exercise at the same time.  And yes, it seems to have a beneficial effect on the asthma.  - Holly McGrath

Response:

Have any of you tried meditation.  I find that taking a half-hour every day to meditate and review the last 24 hours helps a lot with keeping my emotional stress under control.  I have also learned the art of NMP (not my problem).  If I can’t materially contribute to a solution, I file it in this category.

Meditation or excerise or anything else you may do to reduce stress in your life in general will help.  Stress tiggers the ‘flight or fight’ response in your body.  Your body is flooded with hormones and neurotransmitters to combat the percieved threat to your body.  Most notably among the compounds secreted in response to stress is epinephrine. And before I revieve a deluge of responses telling me that epinephrine is given to control an asthma attack (I know that already) epinephrine binds to both alpha adrenergic receptors (the same receptors stimulated in a methacholine challenge), which will result in constriction of the airways AND beta2 adrenergic receptors, which relax the airways.  The concentration of epinephrine in the body dictates which receptor class in predominately activated. Gwenith Jones, Ph.D. Asst. Prof of Pharmacology Univ. of Virginia  

Response:

Have any of you tried meditation.  I find that taking a half-hour every day to meditate and review the last 24 hours helps a lot with keeping my emotional stress under control.  I have also learned the art of NMP (not my problem).  If I can’t materially contribute to a solution, I file it in this category. Chris Owens – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although I’m no MD, I believe it is possible based on my own experiences. Although no where near as traumatic as the loss of a loved one, I can remember having severe recurring asthma attacks during and prior to my parents divorce. They became worse as their marriage sustained more damage and we kids became hostages (figuratively speaking). I have had asthma almost all my life, but I don’t remember it having been as bad before or since that period. I will also suggest that 4 inhalers a month is quite high. My own physician has told me that they are to supplement my Slo-bid (theophylline)as needed, not the other way around. I would also suggest seeing a specialist. Family MD’s are great, but they just can’t be up on the latest info regarding asthma treatment. Steriods are a last resort, so make sure your wife has exhausted all her other options regarding possible treatment. There are a lot of other effective medications available these days, without the long term side effects of steroids. Hope this helps and best of luck, Keith Chilcote Hello, everyone.  I am new to this group but am replying because I too suffer from asthma.  In my case, any sort of emotional trauma gives rise to me having asthma.  My divorce, going out with new friends, dealing with my anger, dealing with my feelings with other people etc.  I am learning to deal with them and especially with the feelings I have for certain people!!  I have found that the ventolin helps but better is talking to someone who is able to listen and reflect back what you say.  Finding someone to talk to about your fears, feelings, attitudes has helped me no end. However, this someone I talk to is unique.  She is strong inside, able to listen properly and not be judgemental.  I have found that the talking about the issues means actually facing them, not just whining and complaining about things!!  The important thing is to resolve the issue so that it doesn’t affect you in the future!! I hope this strikes a chord within you.  I have helped myself a heck of a lot.  Finding someone to talk to who won’t decry or poo-poo you is also hard but hopefully, there will be someone. Good luck if this is what you need. Cheers Ross Cooper

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although I’m no MD, I believe it is possible based on my own experiences. Although no where near as traumatic as the loss of a loved one, I can remember having severe recurring asthma attacks during and prior to my parents divorce. They became worse as their marriage sustained more damage and we kids became hostages (figuratively speaking). I have had asthma almost all my life, but I don’t remember it having been as bad before or since that period. I will also suggest that 4 inhalers a month is quite high. My own physician has told me that they are to supplement my Slo-bid (theophylline)as needed, not the other way around. I would also suggest seeing a specialist. Family MD’s are great, but they just can’t be up on the latest info regarding asthma treatment. Steriods are a last resort, so make sure your wife has exhausted all her other options regarding possible treatment. There are a lot of other effective medications available these days, without the long term side effects of steroids. Hope this helps and best of luck, Keith Chilcote

Hello, everyone.  I am new to this group but am replying because I too suffer from asthma.  In my case, any sort of emotional trauma gives rise to me having asthma.  My divorce, going out with new friends, dealing with my anger, dealing with my feelings with other people etc.  I am learning to deal with them and especially with the feelings I have for certain people!!  I have found that the ventolin helps but better is talking to someone who is able to listen and reflect back what you say.  Finding someone to talk to about your fears, feelings, attitudes has helped me no end. However, this someone I talk to is unique.  She is strong inside, able to listen properly and not be judgemental.  I have found that the talking about the issues means actually facing them, not just whining and complaining about things!!  The important thing is to resolve the issue so that it doesn’t affect you in the future!! I hope this strikes a chord within you.  I have helped myself a heck of a lot.  Finding someone to talk to who won’t decry or poo-poo you is also hard but hopefully, there will be someone. Good luck if this is what you need. Cheers Ross Cooper

Response:

Greetings, My wife never suffered severe asthma until the accidental death of our 5 year old son.  Since that time she has been taking ventolin, various steroids etc.  She goes through about 4 inhalers per month.  We’ve been to the emergency room a few times on the medevac air ambulance.  Anyone know of references/treatment on this kind of a problem? The standard Family practice Docs just keep putting her on steroids…. Regards

Although I’m no MD, I believe it is possible based on my own experiences. Although no where near as traumatic as the loss of a loved one, I can remember having severe recurring asthma attacks during and prior to my parents divorce. They became worse as their marriage sustained more damage and we kids became hostages (figuratively speaking). I have had asthma almost all my life, but I don’t remember it having been as bad before or since that period. I will also suggest that 4 inhalers a month is quite high. My own physician has told me that they are to supplement my Slo-bid (theophylline)as needed, not the other way around. I would also suggest seeing a specialist. Family MD’s are great, but they just can’t be up on the latest info regarding asthma treatment. Steriods are a last resort, so make sure your wife has exhausted all her other options regarding possible treatment. There are a lot of other effective medications available these days, without the long term side effects of steroids. Hope this helps and best of luck, Keith Chilcote | Keith Chilcote                (703) 749-0446 Voice      | | Seer Technologies, Inc.       (703) 749-0448 Facsimile  |

Response:

    Steriods are a last resort, so     make sure your wife has exhausted all her other options regarding     possible treatment. There are a lot of other effective     medications available these days, without the long term side     effects of steroids.    Steroids inhalers are the med of choice for the prevention or lessening    of additional asthma attacks.  Steroid inhalers primarily exert their    effect in the bronchi, there is little long-term side effects    associated with inhaled steroids.  This is not the case with oral    steroids (predisone). For some people, even inhaled steroids are not enough, and inhaled steroids are certainly not adequate as a single medication to treat acute episodes. Oral and injected steroids are sometimes required in cases where there is an acute episode or when other medications are not effective (enough).   We all tend to talk in generalities, such as "it’s better to use inhaled steroids than oral", etc. It all really depends on the individual and the circumstances. I’m glad that the inhaled steroids are around as a preventative and that the oral steroids are around when I really need them. I’m also glad that my asthma is not bad enough to need the oral steroids on a long-term basis. Your mileage may vary. Mark — Mark Feblowitz,   GTE Laboratories Inc., 40 Sylvan Rd.  Waltham, MA 02254

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