Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can you provide some sort of documentation that describes the dosage variation in active ingredients of say 5 herbs to say, the first standard deviation? If you cannot do this can you show _why_ you believe that the variation in dosage is "nominal"" For crying out loud, I am NOT a chemist, and I believe this is true simply for 2 reasons, number one: My books say so (in far more words than this, but…); and two: how much deviation do YOU think I would find from one mg of ground leaf, to another mg of ground leaf? Uh, I take it that you don’t know what a ’standard deviation’ is. I’ll rephrase my question in layman’s terms: What is the percenatge of variation (min/max) in active of the specefic herb tested. And what is the confidence factor that any one sample will fall within that range?
I don’t know, and neither do you. Thank God. Otherwise the damn thing would cost my $40 ever time I wanted to take a garlic pill to boost my immunity. <grin Can you define ‘boost’?
Boost=increase? ya think? I am not a scientist who has done thousande of double-blind studies to determine this or that about the herbs I use. I use them and they work for me. If you want to call thie placebo effect, then so be it, but they work for me and my wife and that is enough for me. And it sounds like your ‘research’ has consisted of reading books by herbal proponents and reading the advertising form herbal marketers.
It’s all in books. Some from the library, others from the bookstore, but it’s all there for the taking. I am not a ’scientist’ either, but I can still research and understand the work that real scientists have done.
I doubt Bell or Pastuer was considered much of a scientist in his day, and I know they took natural remedies for their ailments. Hmmm… that’s an interesting thought. Hey, we agree. Real basic, but you left out the part of why I told you to look there. Alph receptors, real basic cellular anatomy and physiology. Don’t try to take my comments out of context, that is rude. Fine, but why did your research stop there? Have you ever tried to validate the claims made by herbal proponents using more advanced references?
Well, that will be great just as soon as I open my million dollar lab. Hey, do you have a mill or two I can borrow? So why do I want these effects systemically when I can yous pharmicuticals that do not produce these systemic effects? I have no idea why you would want to. I only rebuffed your previous comment about asthama and alph/beta receptors. Giving info that supports my beliefe obviously does not sit well with you. Actually, since you did not post a source I am unable to look up the reference.
The one I use most is Chevallier’s "Encyclopedia of Medicinal Plants"; I have others, but you’d never find them. This one is still on the shelves. There are many unproven aspects to asthma and its origins. If you believe that you know all the reasons why asthma affects us, please share your wisdom. Yes, there are – but the real doctors and scientists admit what they do not know. Just because science hasn’t proven the cause of asthma (although there is stron evidence that it may be due to a genetic defect in the part of a chormosone that controls the immune system) dosn’t mean that we should ignore what is _known_ about asthma in pursuit of quack cures.
Quack cures? Just because you don’t happen to subscribe to herbal treatment does not make them quackery. They are effective for a tremendous number of ailments. You know it, you just don’t want to admit it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you ever taken ventolin? It affects the central nervous system as well in a tremendous number of people. It stimulates cardiac and respiratory centers. It relaxes the smooth muscle, but it does not appear to be nearly as beta-2 specific as sceince would have me believe. Actually it is very Beta2 specific. The problem is that there are Beta2 receptors in the heart and cardiovasculor (sp?) system. Fortunately the lungs have a high percentage of Beta2 receptor sites and the heart has a low percentage. That is why i stated that the drug is intended to minimize side effects. (BTW, there is a new drug undergoing testing that may reduce side effects still further – I don’t think we will see it for several years when all the tests are completed). You seem to have assumed that albuterol (Ventolin is a brand name) is not Beta2-specific without checking the facts.
You have no idea what I know. Do not assume facts not in evidence. I have a bs in cardiopulm science and am working for my md in pulmonology from there I plan to go into homeopathy. Do not assume anything about me. That would be a grave error. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As stated in a previous post, many plants act synergistically within themselves: that is, one active constituent produces an effect, while if the whole plant is taken, there is a greater effect. I know that you have stated that, but you have not given me your source. Can you please provide some sort of reference for this claim? Didn’t I ask for a reference the first time you said this anyway? Offhand: 1) Knowing that the drug has actually been tested to verify that it is safe and effective for its intended usage. (And that this testing had been validated by outside agencies). Validated by more than a thousand years’ testing in the best lab in the world. Tested by the same people who felt that bloodletting and arsenic were effective medical techniques? People who felt that bathing was ‘unhealthy’?
I don’t thik they would have much more to do with than you do. The ones that tested it are the ones searching for any sort of help and found it when they tried this or that. They then passed this info down to their children etc. Much the same way the Gospel came to us. This is not testing. This is nothing more than folklore. 2) Full disclosure of side effects, contraindications and contents for the pharmicutical. It’s all in books. How can we know that we can trust the books? And why should I have to buy a book to get safety information for a drug anyway? With a pharmicutical the safety information is (by law) available upon request. (And as an asthmatics trash basket can attest – we frequently get it even if we do not ask for it.)
How can we know to trust books…. Hmmm… there is an element of faith in everything we do in every day of our life. I never met a amn named Ceasar, but there are many books that attest to his existance. In the same fashion there are many books which purport the same facts about different herbs and plants. These herbs and plants have been tested by many thousands of people. They worked for them and they have worked for me. 3) Precise, repeatable and verifiable dosage levels. Even the dosage of aspirin in a tablet varies. Minutely, but it varies. Want to compare the variations in actual dosage between herbs and pharmicuticals? (Assuming that reliable information on dosage information is availablr for herbs).
I have already stated that there are variations and that they will vary to a greater degree than manufactered chemicals, but, and I hope you are not foolish enough not to believe this, even your aspirin varies in the amount of drug it delivers. 4) No ‘extra’ components – which means less possibility ofcross-reactions and side effects. Best start doing your own refining so you KNOW you’re not getting anything you don’t want. Not practical. Besides do you have any real evidence that pharmicuticals are adulterated? Or is this just innuendo?
Heat denatures proteins, this we know. Do you know what effects heat and other refining processes have on the chemicals and their bonds? I honestly know little about the refining process except that it is usually a chemical process. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers.
Response:
Tested by the same people who felt that bloodletting and arsenic were effective medical techniques?
Actually, bloodletting was the standard treatment by the established medical doctors in the late 1700’s. You won’t learn it in school, but George Washington died that way. He came down with a cold and nasty sore throat, and from the standard treatment, they basically bled him to death.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …..snipped There is truth to that, but foods are medicines. Only if they are being used as medicines rather than food. If you are using food for nutrition then all you are doing is providing yourself with the appropiate carbos, protiens, vitamins etc. That is simply not true. Just because you eat something as a food and not as a medicine does not defer it’s effects. If that line of reasoning held true, I could eat anything I want (say a cup of deadly nightshade as a flavor enhancer to my chicken) and not worry about it, but it would likely stop my heart, right after it cleared my sinuses.
Yes, and as I understand it the Natural Health concept is also to do with a ‘healty’ diet that provides all the necessaary vitamins and minerals in order to maintain the immune system at its optimum so that infections and desease can be dealt with at an early stage without the needs for heavy reliance on drugs (or even herbs). The use of dietary supplements is not preferred over having a balanced diet as the later is more effective (will include many more compounds that science has yet to isolate and/or understand the importance of, all of which interact to produce enhanced immunity). The same could apply to the taking of herbs verus manufactured medicines. Dave
Response:
Can you provide some sort of documentation that describes the dosage variation in active ingredients of say 5 herbs to say, the first standard deviation? If you cannot do this can you show _why_ you believe that the variation in dosage is "nominal"" For crying out loud, I am NOT a chemist, and I believe this is true simply for 2 reasons, number one: My books say so (in far more words than this, but…); and two: how much deviation do YOU think I would find from one mg of ground leaf, to another mg of ground leaf?
Uh, I take it that you don’t know what a ’standard deviation’ is. I’ll rephrase my question in layman’s terms: What is the percenatge of variation (min/max) in active of the specefic herb tested. And what is the confidence factor that any one sample will fall within that range? Thank God. Otherwise the damn thing would cost my $40 ever time I wanted to take a garlic pill to boost my immunity.
<grin Can you define ‘boost’? I am not a scientist who has done thousande of double-blind studies to determine this or that about the herbs I use. I use them and they work for me. If you want to call thie placebo effect, then so be it, but they work for me and my wife and that is enough for me.
And it sounds like your ‘research’ has consisted of reading books by herbal proponents and reading the advertising form herbal marketers. I am not a ’scientist’ either, but I can still research and understand the work that real scientists have done. Hey, we agree. Real basic, but you left out the part of why I told you to look there. Alph receptors, real basic cellular anatomy and physiology. Don’t try to take my comments out of context, that is rude.
Fine, but why did your research stop there? Have you ever tried to validate the claims made by herbal proponents using more advanced references? So why do I want these effects systemically when I can yous pharmicuticals that do not produce these systemic effects? I have no idea why you would want to. I only rebuffed your previous comment about asthama and alph/beta receptors. Giving info that supports my beliefe obviously does not sit well with you.
Actually, since you did not post a source I am unable to look up the reference. There are many unproven aspects to asthma and its origins. If you believe that you know all the reasons why asthma affects us, please share your wisdom.
Yes, there are – but the real doctors and scientists admit what they do not know. Just because science hasn’t proven the cause of asthma (although there is stron evidence that it may be due to a genetic defect in the part of a chormosone that controls the immune system) dosn’t mean that we should ignore what is _known_ about asthma in pursuit of quack cures. Have you ever taken ventolin? It affects the central nervous system as well in a tremendous number of people. It stimulates cardiac and respiratory centers. It relaxes the smooth muscle, but it does not appear to be nearly as beta-2 specific as sceince would have me believe.
Actually it is very Beta2 specific. The problem is that there are Beta2 receptors in the heart and cardiovasculor (sp?) system. Fortunately the lungs have a high percentage of Beta2 receptor sites and the heart has a low percentage. That is why i stated that the drug is intended to minimize side effects. (BTW, there is a new drug undergoing testing that may reduce side effects still further – I don’t think we will see it for several years when all the tests are completed). You seem to have assumed that albuterol (Ventolin is a brand name) is not Beta2-specific without checking the facts. As stated in a previous post, many plants act synergistically within themselves: that is, one active constituent produces an effect, while if the whole plant is taken, there is a greater effect.
I know that you have stated that, but you have not given me your source. Can you please provide some sort of reference for this claim? Didn’t I ask for a reference the first time you said this anyway? Offhand: 1) Knowing that the drug has actually been tested to verify that it is safe and effective for its intended usage. (And that this testing had been validated by outside agencies). Validated by more than a thousand years’ testing in the best lab in the world.
Tested by the same people who felt that bloodletting and arsenic were effective medical techniques? People who felt that bathing was ‘unhealthy’? This is not testing. This is nothing more than folklore. 2) Full disclosure of side effects, contraindications and contents for the pharmicutical. It’s all in books.
How can we know that we can trust the books? And why should I have to buy a book to get safety information for a drug anyway? With a pharmicutical the safety information is (by law) available upon request. (And as an asthmatics trash basket can attest – we frequently get it even if we do not ask for it.) 3) Precise, repeatable and verifiable dosage levels. Even the dosage of aspirin in a tablet varies. Minutely, but it varies.
Want to compare the variations in actual dosage between herbs and pharmicuticals? (Assuming that reliable information on dosage information is availablr for herbs). 4) No ‘extra’ components – which means less possibility ofcross-reactions and side effects. Best start doing your own refining so you KNOW you’re not getting anything you don’t want.
Not practical. Besides do you have any real evidence that pharmicuticals are adulterated? Or is this just innuendo? ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …..snipped There is truth to that, but foods are medicines. Only if they are being used as medicines rather than food. If you are using food for nutrition then all you are doing is providing yourself with the appropiate carbos, protiens, vitamins etc. That is simply not true. Just because you eat something as a food and not as a medicine does not defer it’s effects. If that line of reasoning held true, I could eat anything I want (say a cup of deadly nightshade as a flavor enhancer to my chicken) and not worry about it, but it would likely stop my heart, right after it cleared my sinuses. Yes, and as I understand it the Natural Health concept is also to do with a ‘healty’ diet that provides all the necessaary vitamins and minerals in order to maintain the immune system at its optimum so that infections and desease can be dealt with at an early stage without the needs for heavy reliance on drugs (or even herbs). The use of dietary supplements is not preferred over having a balanced diet as the later is more effective (will include many more compounds that science has yet to isolate and/or understand the importance of, all of which interact to produce enhanced immunity). The same could apply to the taking of herbs verus manufactured medicines. Dave
Thank you sir. I agree COMPLETELY! Health is far MORE than this pill versus THAT pill. Far more than chemical versus herbal. The person is more than a body, but also a mind and spirit which all need to be attended to when the body or mind or spirit is ill.
Response:
dose (usually). Although there are variations in concentrations, the variance is nominal. Can you provide some sort of documentation that describes the dosage variation in active ingredients of say 5 herbs to say, the first standard deviation? If you cannot do this can you show _why_ you believe that the variation in dosage is "nominal""
For crying out loud, I am NOT a chemist, and I believe this is true simply for 2 reasons, number one: My books say so (in far more words than this, but…); and two: how much deviation do YOU think I would find from one mg of ground leaf, to another mg of ground leaf? Theraputic effect differs from one person to another. One person may need 1000 mg acetaminophen to relieve headache, while another may require 1500… varying dosage requirements. Yes, I know, not all meds, and hence herbs, require such variances. Yes, but I _know_ that I am getting 1000mg or 1500mg of medication (unlike pharmicutical companies, plants do not use statistical process control).
Thank God. Otherwise the damn thing would cost my $40 ever time I wanted to take a garlic pill to boost my immunity. No, because scientists are interested in isolation of the single compound responsible for the effect. They do not look at the whole, they want this part or that part, so there is no body of evidence to support this claim, but it is what I have seen. So how do you know that what you have seen is accurate? I am beginning to suspect that you are assuming that your beliefs are ‘facts.’
I am not a scientist who has done thousande of double-blind studies to determine this or that about the herbs I use. I use them and they work for me. If you want to call thie placebo effect, then so be it, but they work for me and my wife and that is enough for me. I do not need scientific studies, try Gray’s anatomy. A telling comment. Why aren’t you using a better source for biochemical information? Gray’s is _real_ basic and dosen’t cover the necessary detail to really understand biochemical reactions.
Hey, we agree. Real basic, but you left out the part of why I told you to look there. Alph receptors, real basic cellular anatomy and physiology. Don’t try to take my comments out of context, that is rude. The effect of an alpha stimulant, say racemic epi, is well documented. It stimulates the alpha receptors (nonspefically) and causes and increase in cardiac and respiratory rates along with an increase in diastolic and systolic pressure due to an increase in pre- and after- loads, due to vascular constriction. The effect is the same in the pulmonary system as it is systemically. So why do I want these effects systemically when I can yous pharmicuticals that do not produce these systemic effects?
I have no idea why you would want to. I only rebuffed your previous comment about asthama and alph/beta receptors. Giving info that supports my beliefe obviously does not sit well with you. Beta agonists are "_better_" for relaxation of bronchial smooth muscle, but there has been a swing in thinking about asthma (refer to BMJ on asthma conference) concerning the role of vasular engourgement and leaking membranes, which might be controlled by alpha stimulation. Note the key word you used here: "might." Are you really proposing that asthma treatment rely on an unproven theory?
There are many unproven aspects to asthma and its origins. If you believe that you know all the reasons why asthma affects us, please share your wisdom. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was not a "disatisfaction" with herbal remedies that spurred scientists to delve further into anatomy. It was witnessed that certain herbal remedies had different effects, these effects were studied, the scientists then extracted the compound responsible for the effect. From there they found that there are different receptors that, when stimulated, result in different effects. They then developed different chemical compounds to selectively stimulate those receptors. Yes, this is what happened. Then they developed artifical versions of the relevant chemicals that had enhanced benefical effects and reduced side effects. The basic problem with a herbal remedy it that you have to take a systemic dosage in order to get your topical dose. In addition herbal remedies tend to act on all the alpha/beta receptor sites rather than just the ones reguired.
Have you ever taken ventolin? It affects the central nervous system as well in a tremendous number of people. It stimulates cardiac and respiratory centers. It relaxes the smooth muscle, but it does not appear to be nearly as beta-2 specific as sceince would have me believe. That is simply not true. Just because you eat something as a food and not as a medicine does not defer it’s effects. If that line of reasoning held true, I could eat anything I want (say a cup of deadly nightshade as a flavor enhancer to my chicken) and not worry about it, but it would likely stop my heart, right after it cleared my sinuses. Do you consider deadly nightshade to be a ‘food?’ I certinally don’t!
And again you have taken my comment out of context. I did not say they do not have side effects, but that they are rare. There is a reason for this, the doses recommended are smaller than those you would find in a chemical couterpart. As I would hope you know, most side effects are dose related, as are mose therputic effects. But is the recommended dose the theraupidic dose? Identical chemical compounds are going to have identical effects on the human body in identical amounts. So 8mg of ephedirne taken in the form of ma huang is going to have the same effects as 8mg of epihedrine taken as a pill.
Probably not, as there is a refining process to the pill, though the same 8 mg of the herb might produce the same effect as the refined chemical product. As stated in a previous post, many plants act synergistically within themselves: that is, one active constituent produces an effect, while if the whole plant is taken, there is a greater effect. Chemistry, yes, but if I take an herb versus a chemical, what is the difference? Think about it. Offhand: 1) Knowing that the drug has actually been tested to verify that it is safe and effective for its intended usage. (And that this testing had been validated by outside agencies).
Validated by more than a thousand years’ testing in the best lab in the world. 2) Full disclosure of side effects, contraindications and contents for the pharmicutical.
It’s all in books. 3) Precise, repeatable and verifiable dosage levels.
Even the dosage of aspirin in a tablet varies. Minutely, but it varies. 4) No ‘extra’ components – which means less possibility ofcross-reactions and side effects.
Best start doing your own refining so you KNOW you’re not getting anything you don’t want. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers.
Response:
dose (usually). Although there are variations in concentrations, the variance is nominal.
Can you provide some sort of documentation that describes the dosage variation in active ingredients of say 5 herbs to say, the first standard deviation? If you cannot do this can you show _why_ you believe that the variation in dosage is "nominal"" Theraputic effect differs from one person to another. One person may need 1000 mg acetaminophen to relieve headache, while another may require 1500… varying dosage requirements. Yes, I know, not all meds, and hence herbs, require such variances.
Yes, but I _know_ that I am getting 1000mg or 1500mg of medication (unlike pharmicutical companies, plants do not use statistical process control). No, because scientists are interested in isolation of the single compound responsible for the effect. They do not look at the whole, they want this part or that part, so there is no body of evidence to support this claim, but it is what I have seen.
So how do you know that what you have seen is accurate? I am beginning to suspect that you are assuming that your beliefs are ‘facts.’ I do not need scientific studies, try Gray’s anatomy.
A telling comment. Why aren’t you using a better source for biochemical information? Gray’s is _real_ basic and dosen’t cover the necessary detail to really understand biochemical reactions. The effect of an alpha stimulant, say racemic epi, is well documented. It stimulates the alpha receptors (nonspefically) and causes and increase in cardiac and respiratory rates along with an increase in diastolic and systolic pressure due to an increase in pre- and after- loads, due to vascular constriction. The effect is the same in the pulmonary system as it is systemically.
So why do I want these effects systemically when I can yous pharmicuticals that do not produce these systemic effects? Beta agonists are "_better_" for relaxation of bronchial smooth muscle, but there has been a swing in thinking about asthma (refer to BMJ on asthma conference) concerning the role of vasular engourgement and leaking membranes, which might be controlled by alpha stimulation.
Note the key word you used here: "might." Are you really proposing that asthma treatment rely on an unproven theory? It was not a "disatisfaction" with herbal remedies that spurred scientists to delve further into anatomy. It was witnessed that certain herbal remedies had different effects, these effects were studied, the scientists then extracted the compound responsible for the effect. From there they found that there are different receptors that, when stimulated, result in different effects. They then developed different chemical compounds to selectively stimulate those receptors.
Yes, this is what happened. Then they developed artifical versions of the relevant chemicals that had enhanced benefical effects and reduced side effects. The basic problem with a herbal remedy it that you have to take a systemic dosage in order to get your topical dose. In addition herbal remedies tend to act on all the alpha/beta receptor sites rather than just the ones reguired. That is simply not true. Just because you eat something as a food and not as a medicine does not defer it’s effects. If that line of reasoning held true, I could eat anything I want (say a cup of deadly nightshade as a flavor enhancer to my chicken) and not worry about it, but it would likely stop my heart, right after it cleared my sinuses.
Do you consider deadly nightshade to be a ‘food?’ I certinally don’t! I did not say they do not have side effects, but that they are rare. There is a reason for this, the doses recommended are smaller than those you would find in a chemical couterpart. As I would hope you know, most side effects are dose related, as are mose therputic effects.
But is the recommended dose the theraupidic dose? Identical chemical compounds are going to have identical effects on the human body in identical amounts. So 8mg of ephedirne taken in the form of ma huang is going to have the same effects as 8mg of epihedrine taken as a pill. Chemistry, yes, but if I take an herb versus a chemical, what is the difference? Think about it.
Offhand: 1) Knowing that the drug has actually been tested to verify that it is safe and effective for its intended usage. (And that this testing had been validated by outside agencies). 2) Full disclosure of side effects, contraindications and contents for the pharmicutical. 3) Precise, repeatable and verifiable dosage levels. 4) No ‘extra’ components – which means less possibility of cross-reactions and side effects. ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers.
Response:
Yes, amount of active constituent differs, but not so widely as you would have me believe, not to mention that the doses are not so highly concentrated as they are with chemical manufactured meds. So you can take more with less worry. So how do you know you are getting the proper dosage? Of course you have to use more in order to get the therapudic effect. The problem is that the larger the amount of herb you consume the larger the dosage variation.
There really is no problem for someone who knows what he is doing. I’m no expert, and I don’t know it all, but it’s all in books and I have several. The recommendations on dosage are contained therein indicating what would be the appropriate dose for a therputic effect. Just like with chemical meds, it may not always work with the dose prescribed, and a larger dose may be required — the larger the patient, the larger the dose (usually). Although there are variations in concentrations, the variance is nominal. I’ll stick with the stuff where I _know_ that I am getting the exact dosage required for the therapudic effect and no more.
Theraputic effect differs from one person to another. One person may need 1000 mg acetaminophen to relieve headache, while another may require 1500… varying dosage requirements. Yes, I know, not all meds, and hence herbs, require such variances. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, most herbal concotions have been demonstrated _not_ to be both safe and effective for the diseases folklore has them treating. I have no idea where you are getting your info on this. Try going to a Medline server and doing a keyword search using ‘asthma’ and the name of the herb. You will get abstracts of the actual scientific studies. and it is the synthesis that removes many of the healthful benefits you would get from taking the whole plant. It is common that the constituents of a plant acting in combination and producing a synergistic effect is what produces the desired medicinal effects rather than one part of the same as the scientists believe. Can you validate this? Can you produce scientific studies where the ‘natural’ versions were demonstrated to be safer and more effective than the pharmicuticals? I have heard this clam a lot and so far nobody has been able to provide supporting evidence.
No, because scientists are interested in isolation of the single compound responsible for the effect. They do not look at the whole, they want this part or that part, so there is no body of evidence to support this claim, but it is what I have seen. However, alph-1 receptors are within the airways also and respond to the stimulant effects of some herbs. Alpha receptors control imflamation (basically). When stimulated, blood vessels constrict and produce a decrease in imflammation. The Beta-2 stimulants produce a relaxation of bronchial smooth muscle which surrounds the outside of the bronchi and does nothing to decrease the interior inflammation. Can you provide some scientific studies demonstrating this? Also the inflamation that causes asthma attacks is much more complicated than your example would indicate.
I do not need scientific studies, try Gray’s anatomy. The effect of an alpha stimulant, say racemic epi, is well documented. It stimulates the alpha receptors (nonspefically) and causes and increase in cardiac and respiratory rates along with an increase in diastolic and systolic pressure due to an increase in pre- and after- loads, due to vascular constriction. The effect is the same in the pulmonary system as it is systemically. Another thing to remember is that the inhaled B2 agonists are _better_ than the herbs as they have fewer side-effects. They are inhaled topically (requiring a smaller dose) and are designed to work on the beta receptor sites that occur most frequently in lung tissue. It was disatisfication with the side effects of the herbal (and herbal derived) stimulants that led to the development of the B2 agonist.
Beta agonists are "_better_" for relaxation of bronchial smooth muscle, but there has been a swing in thinking about asthma (refer to BMJ on asthma conference) concerning the role of vasular engourgement and leaking membranes, which might be controlled by alpha stimulation. It was not a "disatisfaction" with herbal remedies that spurred scientists to delve further into anatomy. It was witnessed that certain herbal remedies had different effects, these effects were studied, the scientists then extracted the compound responsible for the effect. From there they found that there are different receptors that, when stimulated, result in different effects. They then developed different chemical compounds to selectively stimulate those receptors. There is truth to that, but foods are medicines. Only if they are being used as medicines rather than food. If you are using food for nutrition then all you are doing is providing yourself with the appropiate carbos, protiens, vitamins etc.
That is simply not true. Just because you eat something as a food and not as a medicine does not defer it’s effects. If that line of reasoning held true, I could eat anything I want (say a cup of deadly nightshade as a flavor enhancer to my chicken) and not worry about it, but it would likely stop my heart, right after it cleared my sinuses. There is a vast amount of research available from other sources rather than having to go do it yourself. The manufacturer of herbs is God. He made it, others just grind it up and package it. Side effects of herbs are rare as they are, in fact, food items. Can you document this or are you quoting somebodys promotional material? The claim that ‘natural’ drugs do not have side effects is simply not true.
I did not say they do not have side effects, but that they are rare. There is a reason for this, the doses recommended are smaller than those you would find in a chemical couterpart. As I would hope you know, most side effects are dose related, as are mose therputic effects. You are going to get the same effects (and side effects) from a drug whether you get it from a herb or a pill. The laws of chemistry are not held in abeyance for herbal products.
Chemistry, yes, but if I take an herb versus a chemical, what is the difference? Think about it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers.
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Oh, please. You’re talking about the way the plant looks, not how it works, or the amount of medical constituent contained therein. For the most part, the medicinal elemts in plants are similar from plant tomplant. There are variations, of course, but the variations are minimal from plant to plant. There are, however, wide variations from one part of the plant to another. It is commonly known that the root typically carries the strongest portion of the active medicinal constituents. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Herbs are grown to similar standards all across the country around the world. Anyone who’s ever eaten at a salad bar has evidence in front of them to the contrary. Scott T."hat plus some of us are *ALLERGIC* to ‘natural’ treatments."
Response:
Yes, amount of active constituent differs, but not so widely as you would have me believe, not to mention that the doses are not so highly concentrated as they are with chemical manufactured meds. So you can take more with less worry.
So how do you know you are getting the proper dosage? Of course you have to use more in order to get the therapudic effect. The problem is that the larger the amount of herb you consume the larger the dosage variation. I’ll stick with the stuff where I _know_ that I am getting the exact dosage required for the therapudic effect and no more. Actually, most herbal concotions have been demonstrated _not_ to be both safe and effective for the diseases folklore has them treating. I have no idea where you are getting your info on this.
Try going to a Medline server and doing a keyword search using ‘asthma’ and the name of the herb. You will get abstracts of the actual scientific studies. and it is the synthesis that removes many of the healthful benefits you would get from taking the whole plant. It is common that the constituents of a plant acting in combination and producing a synergistic effect is what produces the desired medicinal effects rather than one part of the same as the scientists believe.
Can you validate this? Can you produce scientific studies where the ‘natural’ versions were demonstrated to be safer and more effective than the pharmicuticals? I have heard this clam a lot and so far nobody has been able to provide supporting evidence. However, alph-1 receptors are within the airways also and respond to the stimulant effects of some herbs. Alpha receptors control imflamation (basically). When stimulated, blood vessels constrict and produce a decrease in imflammation. The Beta-2 stimulants produce a relaxation of bronchial smooth muscle which surrounds the outside of the bronchi and does nothing to decrease the interior inflammation.
Can you provide some scientific studies demonstrating this? Also the inflamation that causes asthma attacks is much more complicated than your example would indicate. Another thing to remember is that the inhaled B2 agonists are _better_ than the herbs as they have fewer side-effects. They are inhaled topically (requiring a smaller dose) and are designed to work on the beta receptor sites that occur most frequently in lung tissue. It was disatisfication with the side effects of the herbal (and herbal derived) stimulants that led to the development of the B2 agonist. There is truth to that, but foods are medicines.
Only if they are being used as medicines rather than food. If you are using food for nutrition then all you are doing is providing yourself with the appropiate carbos, protiens, vitamins etc. There is a vast amount of research available from other sources rather than having to go do it yourself. The manufacturer of herbs is God. He made it, others just grind it up and package it. Side effects of herbs are rare as they are, in fact, food items.
Can you document this or are you quoting somebodys promotional material? The claim that ‘natural’ drugs do not have side effects is simply not true. You are going to get the same effects (and side effects) from a drug whether you get it from a herb or a pill. The laws of chemistry are not held in abeyance for herbal products. ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1) Purity and repeatibility. Prescription medications are manufactured to much tighter quality control standards and always give the exact same amount of medication per dose. A herbal remedy can vary widely in potency from dose to dose. Herbs are grown to similar standards all across the country and world. Though the potency may vary based on amount of nutrients received duting the growing phase, the amount of the herb received per dose is within fairly tight limits based solely on the amount of medication one can compact into a capsule, or amount of a tsp, tblsp, cup, etc. The problem is that the amount of active ingredient (the chemical that provides the effect) can be different from plant to plant and even leaf to leaf. Until somebody figures out how to provide repeatable dosages of active ingredients in herbal form you will continue to get random dosages of the drugs.
Yes, amount of active constituent differs, but not so widely as you would have me believe, not to mention that the doses are not so highly concentrated as they are with chemical manufactured meds. So you can take more with less worry. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although there are certain restrictions when taking prescription drugs, herbal/plant medications are generally much safer to take than prescription and OTC meds. If you want to know how they work, read a book or two. If you want to know the possible side effects or drug interactions, do a little research. As I said, do not blindly take anyone’s advice. How can they be ’safer’ if you are getting unknown dosages of unknown chemicals? My example here is ethenica (sp?) that is claimed to be a ’safe’ herb but is dangerous when used in combination with common asthma medications. Also, this information is _not_ available with a ‘little’ research. it took me three days to find this fact. And as I stated previously, I still don’t know what else is in the herb!
Well, again, you are wrong about this. The caffeic acids you refer to are echinacoside and cynarin. other constituents of echinacae are as follows: Alkamides (mostly isobutylamides with olefinic and acetylenic bonds) Polysaccharides, volatile oil (humulene), echinolone and betaine. This information is available to my fingertips from one book, and is confirmed by three other books I have in my possession that I purchased recently. This info IS easy to find, if you are willing to look in the right place. Herbal/plant remedies have been tested over the past several thousand years and are generally much safer to take than most other meds. Manay have been studied recently in clinical trials at leading universities and have been found to be effective for exactly what homeopaths and herbalists have prescibed them for, for the past several thousand years. Actually, most herbal concotions have been demonstrated _not_ to be both safe and effective for the diseases folklore has them treating.
I have no idea where you are getting your info on this. Many herbs have been found to contain chemicals which are useful in treating disease. Cromyln sodium (Intal) and theophylline are two examples of this. These drugs are now manufactured synthetically for reasons of quality control, and precise consistant dosing.
and it is the synthesis that removes many of the healthful benefits you would get from taking the whole plant. It is common that the constituents of a plant acting in combination and producing a synergistic effect is what produces the desired medicinal effects rather than one part of the same as the scientists believe. Ephedrine is an example of a ‘natural’ herb that has been replaced by a safer and more effective synthetic (the B-2 agnoists). The biggest thing about herbal remedies for asthma is that they all rely on the use of systemic stimulants as bronchiodilators. These tend to have greater side effects than prescription medications, the strength varies from dose to dose, and they do nothing to control airways inflamation.
However, alph-1 receptors are within the airways also and respond to the stimulant effects of some herbs. Alpha receptors control imflamation (basically). When stimulated, blood vessels constrict and produce a decrease in imflammation. The Beta-2 stimulants produce a relaxation of bronchial smooth muscle which surrounds the outside of the bronchi and does nothing to decrease the interior inflammation. However, the information is available if you want to take advantage of it. If you feel it necessary to know the exact chemical makeup of the herb/plant you are taking, the info is available; however, you will eat many other plants that have medicinal effects without knowing exactly what is in it: ginger, horseradish, cabbige, thyme, rosemary, etc. etc. The information is _not_ easilly available. As I have discovered when researching various herbal; ‘remedies’ for asthma. The moment you start using a food item for medical effects you should be aware of the exact chemicals you are using. There is a big difference in the quantity you consume when something is used as a spice and the amount when it is used as a medicine.
There is truth to that, but foods are medicines. Anyway, the consumer should not have to spend hours researching the effects and safety of a product before using it. The manufactuer should make this information available as part of the packaging. Not just the names of the herbs but the names and quantitys of the active and inactive ingredients. In addition they should list the side effects and all know contraindications.
There is a vast amount of research available from other sources rather than having to go do it yourself. The manufacturer of herbs is God. He made it, others just grind it up and package it. Side effects of herbs are rare as they are, in fact, food items. It is only in abuse that cases occur. Atropa belladonna, aka deadly nightshade, has tropane alkaloids contained therein, from which man has extracted atropine. Much like atropine, belladonna can be easily abused, and can be fatal if not taken in the proper amount. One example. Many others, but most plants are not that strong in their actions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Until this occurs, there is no way to be resonably certian as to the safety of any herbal product. ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I suggest to you that every time you go to the doctor you are taking your life and health in your own hands. I work in a hospital and see the completely rediculous things md’s do. not all are quacks, but more than a few are. This is why I suggest that all asthmatics read a couple of books on asthma. I have been seen by excellent doctors and really bad doctors. If your doctor tells you something that seems to contradict what you know, ask him to explain it to you. If he is either unable to unwilling to explain it then find another doctor. Anyway, who would you regard as more likley to be a reliable source of asthma advice – a doctor or a high-school student working in a ‘health-foods’ store?
Personally, neither. I don’t trust ANYone when it comes to my health. If the doc prescribes something, I investigate it and my own illness before I will even take it. If I am looking for a particular herb that claims to do this or that, I research it to make sure the claim is at least valid, and then I get what I want and do not trust ANYone working in the bloody store. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
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Herbs are grown to similar standards all across the country around the world.
Anyone who’s ever eaten at a salad bar has evidence in front of them to the contrary. Scott T."hat plus some of us are *ALLERGIC* to ‘natural’ treatments."
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1) Purity and repeatibility. Prescription medications are manufactured to much tighter quality control standards and always give the exact same amount of medication per dose. A herbal remedy can vary widely in potency from dose to dose. Herbs are grown to similar standards all across the country and world. Though the potency may vary based on amount of nutrients received duting the growing phase, the amount of the herb received per dose is within fairly tight limits based solely on the amount of medication one can compact into a capsule, or amount of a tsp, tblsp, cup, etc.
The problem is that the amount of active ingredient (the chemical that provides the effect) can be different from plant to plant and even leaf to leaf. Until somebody figures out how to provide repeatable dosages of active ingredients in herbal form you will continue to get random dosages of the drugs. Although there are certain restrictions when taking prescription drugs, herbal/plant medications are generally much safer to take than prescription and OTC meds. If you want to know how they work, read a book or two. If you want to know the possible side effects or drug interactions, do a little research. As I said, do not blindly take anyone’s advice.
How can they be ’safer’ if you are getting unknown dosages of unknown chemicals? My example here is ethenica (sp?) that is claimed to be a ’safe’ herb but is dangerous when used in combination with common asthma medications. Also, this information is _not_ available with a ‘little’ research. it took me three days to find this fact. And as I stated previously, I still don’t know what else is in the herb! Herbal/plant remedies have been tested over the past several thousand years and are generally much safer to take than most other meds. Manay have been studied recently in clinical trials at leading universities and have been found to be effective for exactly what homeopaths and herbalists have prescibed them for, for the past several thousand years.
Actually, most herbal concotions have been demonstrated _not_ to be both safe and effective for the diseases folklore has them treating. Many herbs have been found to contain chemicals which are useful in treating disease. Cromyln sodium (Intal) and theophylline are two examples of this. These drugs are now manufactured synthetically for reasons of quality control, and precise consistant dosing. Ephedrine is an example of a ‘natural’ herb that has been replaced by a safer and more effective synthetic (the B-2 agnoists). The biggest thing about herbal remedies for asthma is that they all rely on the use of systemic stimulants as bronchiodilators. These tend to have greater side effects than prescription medications, the strength varies from dose to dose, and they do nothing to control airways inflamation. However, the information is available if you want to take advantage of it. If you feel it necessary to know the exact chemical makeup of the herb/plant you are taking, the info is available; however, you will eat many other plants that have medicinal effects without knowing exactly what is in it: ginger, horseradish, cabbige, thyme, rosemary, etc. etc.
The information is _not_ easilly available. As I have discovered when researching various herbal; ‘remedies’ for asthma. The moment you start using a food item for medical effects you should be aware of the exact chemicals you are using. There is a big difference in the quantity you consume when something is used as a spice and the amount when it is used as a medicine. Anyway, the consumer should not have to spend hours researching the effects and safety of a product before using it. The manufactuer should make this information available as part of the packaging. Not just the names of the herbs but the names and quantitys of the active and inactive ingredients. In addition they should list the side effects and all know contraindications. Until this occurs, there is no way to be resonably certian as to the safety of any herbal product. ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers.
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As stated in the original post, this is merely suggested possibuilities. I am not a doctor, nor a homeopath. I am merely a person who has decided that doctors have very little idea of what they do to patients. Many medicines prescribed in the hospital are derived from plants, why not bypass al the middle men and get the drug the way it was meant to be taken, naturally, herbal? These remedies are, as posted, suggested routes of treatment. If you want to know more about them, buy the book. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have several possibilities for you; however, this is not professional medical advice, but my opinion: 1. Make and infusion using 15 grams of netle and 15 grams of thyme with 2. Make an infusion with 2 heaping tsp of German chamomile to 1 cup of 4. make a decoction of Baical skullcap and take up to 2 cups a day. 5. take 1 tsp of tincture of Crampbark with water up to 8 times a day 6. Take 2 to 3 tablets or capsules (totalling 500-600 mg) Echinacea, or I have a concern as to what the active ingredients of these herbal remedies are. In addition I would like to know what the contra-indications and side effects are. How many of these herbs have an active ingredient that may be contra-indicated if combined with an asthma medication? What medical conditions would be contra indicated for any of these herbs?
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I have several possibilities for you; however, this is not professional medical advice, but my opinion: 1. Make and infusion using 15 grams of netle and 15 grams of thyme with 2. Make an infusion with 2 heaping tsp of German chamomile to 1 cup of 4. make a decoction of Baical skullcap and take up to 2 cups a day. 5. take 1 tsp of tincture of Crampbark with water up to 8 times a day 6. Take 2 to 3 tablets or capsules (totalling 500-600 mg) Echinacea, or
I have a concern as to what the active ingredients of these herbal remedies are. In addition I would like to know what the contra-indications and side effects are. How many of these herbs have an active ingredient that may be contra-indicated if combined with an asthma medication? What medical conditions would be contra indicated for any of these herbs?
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I suggest to you that every time you go to the doctor you are taking your life and health in your own hands. I work in a hospital and see the completely rediculous things md’s do. not all are quacks, but more than a few are.
This is why I suggest that all asthmatics read a couple of books on asthma. I have been seen by excellent doctors and really bad doctors. If your doctor tells you something that seems to contradict what you know, ask him to explain it to you. If he is either unable to unwilling to explain it then find another doctor. Anyway, who would you regard as more likley to be a reliable source of asthma advice – a doctor or a high-school student working in a ‘health-foods’ store?
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As stated in the original post, this is merely suggested possibuilities. I am not a doctor, nor a homeopath. I am merely a person who has decided that doctors have very little idea of what they do to patients. Many medicines prescribed in the hospital are derived from plants, why not bypass al the middle men and get the drug the way it was meant to be taken, naturally, herbal? These remedies are, as posted, suggested routes of treatment. If you want to know more about them, buy the book.
I can think of several reason to use the ‘middleman’: 1) Purity and repeatibility. Prescription medications are manufactured to much tighter quality control standards and always give the exact same amount of medication per dose. A herbal remedy can vary widely in potency from dose to dose. 2) Knowelage of side effects and contra-indications. Prescription medications are tested to determine the side effects and contra-indications. A good pharmicist or doctor will tell you what may happen and what to do in response (usually: "Call me immedeatly if . . . "). 3) Prescription medications have been tested to demonstrate that they are actually safe and effective for the intended usage. 4) Labeling and packaging. In a prescription medication you know exactly what you are getting down to the molecular structure. Most herbal remedies merely give you the plant name (frequently not even the scientific name of the plant) with no information as to the different chemicals involved. (It took me three days to track down the caffenic acid in Echanecia. (And I still don’t know what the other chemicals in it are!) 5) Requlation and oversight. Pharmicuticals are tightly requlated by an outside agency. There is virtually no independent oversight of the ‘alternative’ medicine industry – this shows up in the exagarrated claims and lack of patient warnings as to side effects and contra-indications.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As stated in the original post, this is merely suggested possibuilities. I am not a doctor, nor a homeopath. I am merely a person who has decided that doctors have very little idea of what they do to patients. Many medicines prescribed in the hospital are derived from plants, why not bypass al the middle men and get the drug the way it was meant to be taken, naturally, herbal? These remedies are, as posted, suggested routes of treatment. If you want to know more about them, buy the book. I can think of several reason to use the ‘middleman’: 1) Purity and repeatibility. Prescription medications are manufactured to much tighter quality control standards and always give the exact same amount of medication per dose. A herbal remedy can vary widely in potency from dose to dose.
Herbs are grown to similar standards all across the country and world. Though the potency may vary based on amount of nutrients received duting the growing phase, the amount of the herb received per dose is within fairly tight limits based solely on the amount of medication one can compact into a capsule, or amount of a tsp, tblsp, cup, etc. 2) Knowelage of side effects and contra-indications. Prescription medications are tested to determine the side effects and contra-indications. A good pharmicist or doctor will tell you what may happen and what to do in response (usually: "Call me immedeatly if . . . ").
Although there are certain restrictions when taking prescription drugs, herbal/plant medications are generally much safer to take than prescription and OTC meds. If you want to know how they work, read a book or two. If you want to know the possible side effects or drug interactions, do a little research. As I said, do not blindly take anyone’s advice. 3) Prescription medications have been tested to demonstrate that they are actually safe and effective for the intended usage.
Herbal/plant remedies have been tested over the past several thousand years and are generally much safer to take than most other meds. Manay have been studied recently in clinical trials at leading universities and have been found to be effective for exactly what homeopaths and herbalists have prescibed them for, for the past several thousand years. 4) Labeling and packaging. In a prescription medication you know exactly what you are getting down to the molecular structure. Most herbal remedies merely give you the plant name (frequently not even the scientific name of the plant) with no information as to the different chemicals involved. (It took me three days to track down the caffenic acid in Echanecia. (And I still don’t know what the other chemicals in it are!)
However, the information is available if you want to take advantage of it. If you feel it necessary to know the exact chemical makeup of the herb/plant you are taking, the info is available; however, you will eat many other plants that have medicinal effects without knowing exactly what is in it: ginger, horseradish, cabbige, thyme, rosemary, etc. etc. 5) Requlation and oversight. Pharmicuticals are tightly requlated by an outside agency. There is virtually no independent oversight of the ‘alternative’ medicine industry – this shows up in the exagarrated claims and lack of patient warnings as to side effects and contra-indications.
I admit that there is undue hype concerning some manufacturers of some herbal concoctions (I recently found a product made up of about 30 different herbs that claimed to make a person breath better *guaranteed*), however; I have never found an herb that I was looking for that did not have the common and scientific genus species on the label as well as the amount of the plant per dosage. As far as claims of remedies are concerned, if you do your research, you will know exactly what should happen when you take it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
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Echinachea to improve/boost the immune system (wards off colds) (ay-can-ay-sha)
Warning! Ethinachea has an active ingredient that is a caffine derivitave, this herb should never be used with theophyline as it will ‘boost’ the effective dosages and increase the posibility of dangerous side effects! This herb can also increase the possibility of side effects from your rescue inhalers. I suggest that anybody who posts herbal advice to this newsgroup also post the side effects and contra-indications. I advise anybody who is considering any herbal remedy or alternative treatment to do careful research before trying it – otherwise all you are doing is gambling with your life and health.
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I was just curious to know if any one of you has tried any natural remedies to alleviate their asthma symptoms. I am taking asthma medication, but I think that I am taking TOO much. I would like to cut my dosage, but I’m interested in this aromatherapy and homeopathy stuff. Does anyone have any natural remedies they can recommend ? Your help will be greatly appreciated !
I have to teach a class soon, but to expand on what Colin said: 1. Avoidance of triggers is both natural and doctor-recommended, and doesn’t involve anybody selling anything. 2. Many "natural" remedies have the same active ingredients as perscription remedies (including theophyilline) but in uncontrolled dosages. If something says "safe and effective", ask about the double-blind studies to prove it. Usually (in the U.S.) "natural" means "’not FDA regulated". 3. Cold (distilled) water is a *very mild* naatural broncodiolator. It probably can’t hurt…but it won’t help much. Good luck…and ask your doctor about alternatives before you try them! Scott T.
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I suggest to you that every time you go to the doctor you are taking your life and health in your own hands. I work in a hospital and see the completely rediculous things md’s do. not all are quacks, but more than a few are. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Echinachea to improve/boost the immune system (wards off colds) (ay-can-ay-sha) Warning! Ethinachea has an active ingredient that is a caffine derivitave, this herb should never be used with theophyline as it will ‘boost’ the effective dosages and increase the posibility of dangerous side effects! This herb can also increase the possibility of side effects from your rescue inhalers. I suggest that anybody who posts herbal advice to this newsgroup also post the side effects and contra-indications. I advise anybody who is considering any herbal remedy or alternative treatment to do careful research before trying it – otherwise all you are doing is gambling with your life and health.
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From my personal experience here are some things that help to alleviate the onset of asthma symptoms for me. Keeping in mind that this is from personal experience, and should not be construed as "medical advice". And, ABOVE ALL, DO NOT adjust your medications without consulting our physician. IF you find that your asthma is improving after implementing some of the following, schedule an appointment with your doctor and discuss with him/her the status of your asthma and request they re-evaluate your then current situation. That said, here are some ideas: Foods: Avoid chocolate: try carob instead Avoid red meat: stick with fish, chicken and pork Avoid refined sugar (white or brown); try Sugar in the Raw Avoid dairy (can congest the lungs) *Be sure to take a calcium substitute! Avoid citrus during asthma tension times (it can congest the lungs) Caffine, in reasonable mounts, can be a decent stimulant Papaya has some great enzymes! Try it cube and sooked in orange juice… (when your not already wheezing..) Herbal remedies: Try "Deep Breathe" tea (I find it at GNC stores) Ginsing (Korean is best) helps improve pulmonary function Calcium supplement (I find it improves my sleep) Echinachea to improve/boost the immune system (wards off colds) (ay-can-ay-sha) Holistic remedies: Relaxation/Meditation: Postitive, focused thinking. During an asthma attack, you can practice relaxation/meditation by focusing your thoughts on something that you find peaceful (the beach, the mountains and so forth). Put yourslef at this location and soak up the serenity there. The positive thoughts will help you to focus on things that make you feel calm and will take your mind off of the stress and tension you’re going through trying to get from breath to breath. Try using this before you use your "as needed" inhalers (like Proventil). Sometimes you can avoid having to bring your lungs out of the tensed situation without the broncho dialators. Exercise: Regular exercise is GREAT for asthmatics!!! Swimming is a wonderful cardio-vascular regime that not only works towards toning the entire body and strenthening the heart, but it also does wonders for improving pulmonary function. Don’t try to kill yourself the first time out by doing too many and too strenuos laps. Take it at a comfortable pace for YOU, remaining fluid and non- stressed in your breathing. The first couple of times may be frustrating and challenging. Hang in there and build each session little by little focusing on the step by step improvements you are seeing in your muscle tone, feeling in your stamina. Best wishes in reducing your medicaitons and improving your health!!!
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I was just curious to know if any one of you has tried any natural remedies to alleviate their asthma symptoms. I am taking asthma medication, but I think that I am taking TOO much. I would like to cut my dosage, but I’m interested in this aromatherapy and homeopathy stuff. Does anyone have any natural remedies they can recommend ? Your help will be greatly appreciated ! Wasan
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I have several possibilities for you; however, this is not professional medical advice, but my opinion: For wheezing and Shortness of Breath 1. Make and infusion using 15 grams of netle and 15 grams of thyme with 750 ml of water and drink it throughout the day. 2. Make an infusion with 2 heaping tsp of German chamomile to 1 cup of water and leave standing for 10 min. in a covered saucepan, inhale the steam, and strain and drink the tea. 3. Use the essential oil of German chamomile in a steam inhalation, or inhale 2 drops of undiluted oil placed on a handkerchief. 4. make a decoction of Baical skullcap and take up to 2 cups a day. For SOB and tight chest 5. take 1 tsp of tincture of Crampbark with water up to 8 times a day for 3 days, then reduce the dose to a maximum of 1 tsp 3 times a day for 7 days. for bronchial asthma due to colds or chest infections 6. Take 2 to 3 tablets or capsules (totalling 500-600 mg) Echinacea, or 1/2 tsp tincture of same with water 2-3 times a day. DO NOT STOP TAKINF STTEROIDS OR OTHER MEDS SUDDENLY THEIR USE SHOULD BE PHASED OUT SLOWLY AND ONLY WITH PROFESSIONAL GUIDANCE. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was just curious to know if any one of you has tried any natural remedies to alleviate their asthma symptoms. I am taking asthma medication, but I think that I am taking TOO much. I would like to cut my dosage, but I’m interested in this aromatherapy and homeopathy stuff. Does anyone have any natural remedies they can recommend ? Your help will be greatly appreciated ! Wasan
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I don’t think Pagano had a study regarding dialysis… just anecdotal.
I just wonder where he got this information about dialysis helping with extreme psoriasis. I guess I’ll have to find the time to do some searching on my own. Dangit, I need an assistant, just for reading Usenet and doing searches. Needless to say, I don’t believe Pagano, and the more I hear about him, the less I believe him (reading his book would probably finish the job).
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Dave, I guess I didn’t express myself very well. I never meant to say that a weakened liver is "the cause" of P. My sincerest apologies, Patty. I did look back through your postings, and I feel I have confused you with another of the newer people who posted about liver problems causing psoriasis. Terribly sorry, and I’ll try to not let it happen again.
—-if you mean me, dave, then i would just like to point out that i never intended to say that a weakened liver "is" the cause of pso. i merely suggested that overworking your liver =might= make it worse, and that cutting out alcohol might alleviate the problem. i don’t see what your problem is with that — it can’t do you any harm to cut out alcohol for a while (except the depression you feel watching all your friends getting drunk without you) and would probably even do you some good—- mac cat
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I don’t think Pagano had a study regarding dialysis… just anecdotal. Dave W wrote Needless to say, I don’t believe Pagano, and the more I hear about him, the less I believe him (reading his book would probably finish the job).
—-you ‘n’ me both! (at least we agree on something 
—- mac cat
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i merely suggested that overworking your liver =might= make it worse, and that cutting out alcohol might alleviate the problem. i don’t see what your problem is with that — it can’t do you any harm to cut out alcohol for a while (except the depression you feel watching all your friends getting drunk without you) and would probably even do you some good—-
I *don’t* have a problem with either of those ideas. Liver problems *might* make psoriasis worse, and alcohol *might* be a culprit, too. I’m fairly certain alcohol is not a factor in *my* psoriasis, for what that’s worth. But I *remember* someone (not Patty, might not have been you) said something that I *perceived* to say that liver problems are the one- and-only cause of psoriasis, and proceeded to explain the cause-and- event chain from liver to skin with incredibly vague biochemistry-like statements. *That* I have a problem with. Wow, lot’s of asterisks in this post…
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Doesn’t dialysis duplicate the function of the *kidneys* in removing waste from the blood? The liver may convert one thing into another, but it’s ultimately the kidney’s job to filter and remove stuff that’s not supposed to be in the blood. Does Pagano give a reference for this dialysis claim (a clinical study, for example)? – Dave W.
Dave- You are right about the kidney being the organ that is most important for the flushing out of toxins but the liver converts toxins into other compounds that are then flushed. From what I understand the liver is very important in the removal of toxins from the blood… maybe someone with a better science background could answer this… There is someone who posts named SJ (Jane I think) who is very knowledgable in bio-chemistry. I don’t think Pagano had a study regarding dialysis… just anecdotal.
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I also feel that possibly if we continue to report these findings–eg. that a flare occured after taking a certain drug or after an illness or an infection–perhaps our medical community will finally find a common link. Wish full thinking or hoping I guess.
I don’t consider that to be wishful thinking. It’s not like researchers are all throwing up their hands and turning to diseases other than psoriasis. Reporting things (and here I’m assuming you’re talking about Patty’s liver/psoriasis/six- month link) *is* important, but reporting too much can be counter-productive (boy who cried ‘wolf’, the information will be ignored). I’m sure that in the six months before I saw the first signs of psoriasis on my elbow, I stubbed my toe. Should I have told the derm about all my toe-stubbings, paper cuts, razor burn, dead-arm, etc.? On the other hand, if you assume, as Patty seems to, that your liver is the cause of your psoriasis, then yes, anything that happens to either your liver or your psoriasis is important. However, as I’ve written in another post, my argument is with her basic assumptions anyway. I also support the P sufferers that have it so bad that they will take ANYTHING to control it. I just don’t feel that just because a Dr. prescribes something – that it is safe- it could cause other problems later in life. To summerize: Not all drugs cause organ damage but some can. Right?
Absolutely correct. I never wrote nor implied that all drugs are safe. You’ll note I did not argue with Patty’s claim that an antidepressant caused damage. I am sure this can happen. My argument in this case was against the proposition that all powerful drugs cause organ damage. Good luck to you and your daughter, I’m glad that you found a treatment that works for her. – Dave W.
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On the other hand, if you assume, as Patty seems to, that your liver is the cause of your psoriasis, then yes, anything that happens to either your liver or your psoriasis is important. However, as I’ve written in another post, my argument is with her basic assumptions anyway.
Dave, I guess I didn’t express myself very well. I never meant to say that a weakened liver is "the cause" of P. I was just explaining what happened to me because I found it interesting that I had elevated liver enzymes immediately after I took an anti-depressant. The reason that this was important was because because this was never told to me by the doctor who prescribed them ti me even though I made a point of asking about the dangers… Yes I read the little informational sheet that you get with prescription drugs and it said there was a very small percentage of people in the clinical trials who showed liver damage but the trial only lasted 6 weeks! In fact that was the only testing done on this drug! 6 weeks. I guess my point is blind faith in doctors giving you the full scoop may not be a good idea. I never meant to say that ALL drugs cause liver damage but I believe that many can. Also I never meant to say that liver damage causes P. I was just saying that it was interesting that some one else, unfortunately I forgot who, said that they also showed poor results on a liver test as I did. My P. was triggered by strep. But why now? I have had strep many times in my life (at least 6 or 7 times) and never got it before. So for me, I wonder if there is some connection. Also Pagan’s book talks about toxicity in the blood … not just leaky gut… the liver removes toxins…he says in his book that dialysis helps in severe forms of P. Just sharing what happened to me. -Patty – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I also support the P sufferers that have it so bad that they will take ANYTHING to control it. I just don’t feel that just because a Dr. prescribes something – that it is safe- it could cause other problems later in life. To summerize: Not all drugs cause organ damage but some can. Right? Absolutely correct. I never wrote nor implied that all drugs are safe. You’ll note I did not argue with Patty’s claim that an antidepressant caused damage. I am sure this can happen. My argument in this case was against the proposition that all powerful drugs cause organ damage. Good luck to you and your daughter, I’m glad that you found a treatment that works for her. – Dave W.
Response:
a friend was taking 5HTP for depression and his psoriasis cleared up very quickly. it worked for his brother too. i have been searching everywhere for reference to this treatment…to no avail. i’m also wondering if it will work for acne since flare-ups are related to stress and stress lowers serotonin levels. try the 5HTP for a couple of weeks and get back to me. they used 100mg daily. good luck, Dawn
Response:
Dave, I guess I didn’t express myself very well. I never meant to say that a weakened liver is "the cause" of P.
My sincerest apologies, Patty. I did look back through your postings, and I feel I have confused you with another of the newer people who posted about liver problems causing psoriasis. Terribly sorry, and I’ll try to not let it happen again. Also Pagan’s book talks about toxicity in the blood … not just leaky gut… the liver removes toxins…he says in his book that dialysis helps in severe forms of P.
Doesn’t dialysis duplicate the function of the *kidneys* in removing waste from the blood? The liver may convert one thing into another, but it’s ultimately the kidney’s job to filter and remove stuff that’s not supposed to be in the blood. Does Pagano give a reference for this dialysis claim (a clinical study, for example)? – Dave W.
Response:
I feel that you are right to be concerned… it seems to me that many of the drugs and even the lotions which can absorb thru the skin may cause more harm than good… just due to the fact that all powerful drugs weaken the liver and other organs… I know that doctors tend to poo poo this but I was on an antoi depressant for only 8 months and I believe ended up with some liver damage I had blood tests that showed it.
Whoa! Once again, where’s the evidence for the sweeping generalization that "all powerful drugs weaken the liver and other organs"? One antidepressant causing liver damage does not mean that all powerful drugs do this.
Response:
Dave It’s probably not a good idea to generalize about the causes of P, because it flares from so many different situations. I am very interested in more natural solutions however because my daughter is young and I would feel terrrible if later in life she found that her babies have birth defects because of some meds. I gave her for P. If a speicial diet and supplements help her control this(and it does) than I opt for this. I also feel that possibly if we continue to report these findings–eg. that a flare occured after taking a certain drug or after an illness or an infection–perhaps our medical community will finally find a common link. Wish full thinking or hoping I guess. I also support the P sufferers that have it so bad that they will take ANYTHING to control it. I just don’t feel that just because a Dr. prescribes something – that it is safe- it could cause other problems later in life. To summerize: Not all drugs cause organ damage but some can. Right? arlene
Response:
Can anyone suggest some natural remedies for psorasis as I don’t fancy the thought of a cocktail of chemicals inside me Thanks I feel that you are right to be concerned… it seems to me that many of the
drugs and even the lotions which can absorb thru the skin may cause more harm than good… just due to the fact that all powerful drugs weaken the liver and other organs… I know that doctors tend to poo poo this but I was on an antoi depressant for only 8 months and I believe ended up with some liver damage I had blood tests that showed it. Anyway I agree with the diet and vitamin approach. I’ve been taking 1000 mcg’s of b12(under the tongue) and 800 mcgs. of folic acid 3 times a day. Got the remedy from this news group (Don Sipler) says he’s still 90% clear after years of having P. using these vitamins.. not sure how it works…also have been on the Pagano diet but only for a couple weeks. I noticed less itching right away but when I started the vitamins I really noticed a difference in the spots after only a few days. Maybe it’s just coincidence … let us know how you do -Patty
Response:
If you’re concerned about what you’re putting inside of you, you should look into the effects of your diet. Consider the amounts or artificial flavors and colors, additives, and preservatives you consume every day. What about all these ingredients you can’t pronounce, let alone know what they are? Think about all overprocessing that many of our convenience foods go through. Our bodies have to put up with alot of stuff that our bodies were not designed to handle. Ok, I probably sound like a nut. I have adjusted my diet since November after reading John Pagano’s book "Healing Psoriasis: The Natural Alternative". I am seeing positive results. It took a couple of months to see any real results on my skin, but I felt so much better generally that there was no question of stopping. Now, 5 months later, I only use my Dovonex once every 1-2 weeks, and my skin continues its slow improvement. I’m hoping the spring sun will accelerate things. Anyway, I’m convinced that diet plays a key role, and I’ll continue to be careful with my diet. Hope this is helpful. Colette – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone suggest some natural remedies for psorasis as I don’t fancy the thought of a cocktail of chemicals inside me Thanks
Response:
Is the Pagano diet similar to the Atkins and Zone etc.? arlene
Response:
My 11 year old son hates this but in the winter when it flares up he takes a warm bath and adds about 1/4 to 1/2 cup of olive oil to the water. After several weeks of this he does clear up quite a bit and usually by then it is sunny again and that does the rest of the job. I should warn you that olive oil is about the most slippery substance known to man so please make sure if you try this not to forget that the tub has to be cleaned right away or somebody will fall and go boom. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone suggest some natural remedies for psorasis as I don’t fancy the thought of a cocktail of chemicals inside me Thanks
Response:
Psoriasis and insomnia are like cats. They cannot be conquered, only be appeased. Whenever I cannot fall asleep I just say to my ‘cat’, "Well, honey you don’t want to sleep, right? Let’s enjoy this book together". Nine out of ten times my ‘cat’ soon will beg me to switch off the lamp to let her sleep. I use the similar tactic to deal with psoriasis. 1. Never hate your psoriasis. it is part of your own skin. 2. Never try to conquer psoriasis with drugs or ointments of any kind. 3. Never scratch or rub it with your fingers. In my case washing with hot water and olive oil soap will stop the itching. 4. Sleep well, eat smartly, do exercise daily and take dietary supplements including zinc as advocated by all the natural healing books. 5. Use nothing but olive oil soap to clean your body including hair. 6. Don’t expect to get obvious result within weeks. Wait patiently for months or even years. In my case I clean 98% of my psoriasis in one year naturally as described above. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Can anyone suggest some natural remedies for psorasis as I don’t fancy the thought of a cocktail of chemicals inside me Thanks
Response:
Can anyone suggest some natural remedies for psorasis as I don’t fancy the thought of a cocktail of chemicals inside me Thanks
Response:
I don’t think Pagano had a study regarding dialysis… just anecdotal.
I just wonder where he got this information about dialysis helping with extreme psoriasis. I guess I’ll have to find the time to do some searching on my own. Dangit, I need an assistant, just for reading Usenet and doing searches. Needless to say, I don’t believe Pagano, and the more I hear about him, the less I believe him (reading his book would probably finish the job).
Response:
Dave, I guess I didn’t express myself very well. I never meant to say that a weakened liver is "the cause" of P. My sincerest apologies, Patty. I did look back through your postings, and I feel I have confused you with another of the newer people who posted about liver problems causing psoriasis. Terribly sorry, and I’ll try to not let it happen again.
—-if you mean me, dave, then i would just like to point out that i never intended to say that a weakened liver "is" the cause of pso. i merely suggested that overworking your liver =might= make it worse, and that cutting out alcohol might alleviate the problem. i don’t see what your problem is with that — it can’t do you any harm to cut out alcohol for a while (except the depression you feel watching all your friends getting drunk without you) and would probably even do you some good—- mac cat
Response:
I don’t think Pagano had a study regarding dialysis… just anecdotal. Dave W wrote Needless to say, I don’t believe Pagano, and the more I hear about him, the less I believe him (reading his book would probably finish the job).
—-you ‘n’ me both! (at least we agree on something —- mac cat
Response:
i merely suggested that overworking your liver =might= make it worse, and that cutting out alcohol might alleviate the problem. i don’t see what your problem is with that — it can’t do you any harm to cut out alcohol for a while (except the depression you feel watching all your friends getting drunk without you) and would probably even do you some good—-
I *don’t* have a problem with either of those ideas. Liver problems *might* make psoriasis worse, and alcohol *might* be a culprit, too. I’m fairly certain alcohol is not a factor in *my* psoriasis, for what that’s worth. But I *remember* someone (not Patty, might not have been you) said something that I *perceived* to say that liver problems are the one- and-only cause of psoriasis, and proceeded to explain the cause-and- event chain from liver to skin with incredibly vague biochemistry-like statements. *That* I have a problem with. Wow, lot’s of asterisks in this post…
Response:
Doesn’t dialysis duplicate the function of the *kidneys* in removing waste from the blood? The liver may convert one thing into another, but it’s ultimately the kidney’s job to filter and remove stuff that’s not supposed to be in the blood. Does Pagano give a reference for this dialysis claim (a clinical study, for example)? – Dave W.
Dave- You are right about the kidney being the organ that is most important for the flushing out of toxins but the liver converts toxins into other compounds that are then flushed. From what I understand the liver is very important in the removal of toxins from the blood… maybe someone with a better science background could answer this… There is someone who posts named SJ (Jane I think) who is very knowledgable in bio-chemistry. I don’t think Pagano had a study regarding dialysis… just anecdotal.
Response:
I also feel that possibly if we continue to report these findings–eg. that a flare occured after taking a certain drug or after an illness or an infection–perhaps our medical community will finally find a common link. Wish full thinking or hoping I guess.
I don’t consider that to be wishful thinking. It’s not like researchers are all throwing up their hands and turning to diseases other than psoriasis. Reporting things (and here I’m assuming you’re talking about Patty’s liver/psoriasis/six- month link) *is* important, but reporting too much can be counter-productive (boy who cried ‘wolf’, the information will be ignored). I’m sure that in the six months before I saw the first signs of psoriasis on my elbow, I stubbed my toe. Should I have told the derm about all my toe-stubbings, paper cuts, razor burn, dead-arm, etc.? On the other hand, if you assume, as Patty seems to, that your liver is the cause of your psoriasis, then yes, anything that happens to either your liver or your psoriasis is important. However, as I’ve written in another post, my argument is with her basic assumptions anyway. I also support the P sufferers that have it so bad that they will take ANYTHING to control it. I just don’t feel that just because a Dr. prescribes something – that it is safe- it could cause other problems later in life. To summerize: Not all drugs cause organ damage but some can. Right?
Absolutely correct. I never wrote nor implied that all drugs are safe. You’ll note I did not argue with Patty’s claim that an antidepressant caused damage. I am sure this can happen. My argument in this case was against the proposition that all powerful drugs cause organ damage. Good luck to you and your daughter, I’m glad that you found a treatment that works for her. – Dave W.
Response:
On the other hand, if you assume, as Patty seems to, that your liver is the cause of your psoriasis, then yes, anything that happens to either your liver or your psoriasis is important. However, as I’ve written in another post, my argument is with her basic assumptions anyway.
Dave, I guess I didn’t express myself very well. I never meant to say that a weakened liver is "the cause" of P. I was just explaining what happened to me because I found it interesting that I had elevated liver enzymes immediately after I took an anti-depressant. The reason that this was important was because because this was never told to me by the doctor who prescribed them ti me even though I made a point of asking about the dangers… Yes I read the little informational sheet that you get with prescription drugs and it said there was a very small percentage of people in the clinical trials who showed liver damage but the trial only lasted 6 weeks! In fact that was the only testing done on this drug! 6 weeks. I guess my point is blind faith in doctors giving you the full scoop may not be a good idea. I never meant to say that ALL drugs cause liver damage but I believe that many can. Also I never meant to say that liver damage causes P. I was just saying that it was interesting that some one else, unfortunately I forgot who, said that they also showed poor results on a liver test as I did. My P. was triggered by strep. But why now? I have had strep many times in my life (at least 6 or 7 times) and never got it before. So for me, I wonder if there is some connection. Also Pagan’s book talks about toxicity in the blood … not just leaky gut… the liver removes toxins…he says in his book that dialysis helps in severe forms of P. Just sharing what happened to me. -Patty – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I also support the P sufferers that have it so bad that they will take ANYTHING to control it. I just don’t feel that just because a Dr. prescribes something – that it is safe- it could cause other problems later in life. To summerize: Not all drugs cause organ damage but some can. Right? Absolutely correct. I never wrote nor implied that all drugs are safe. You’ll note I did not argue with Patty’s claim that an antidepressant caused damage. I am sure this can happen. My argument in this case was against the proposition that all powerful drugs cause organ damage. Good luck to you and your daughter, I’m glad that you found a treatment that works for her. – Dave W.
Response:
a friend was taking 5HTP for depression and his psoriasis cleared up very quickly. it worked for his brother too. i have been searching everywhere for reference to this treatment…to no avail. i’m also wondering if it will work for acne since flare-ups are related to stress and stress lowers serotonin levels. try the 5HTP for a couple of weeks and get back to me. they used 100mg daily. good luck, Dawn
Response:
Dave, I guess I didn’t express myself very well. I never meant to say that a weakened liver is "the cause" of P.
My sincerest apologies, Patty. I did look back through your postings, and I feel I have confused you with another of the newer people who posted about liver problems causing psoriasis. Terribly sorry, and I’ll try to not let it happen again. Also Pagan’s book talks about toxicity in the blood … not just leaky gut… the liver removes toxins…he says in his book that dialysis helps in severe forms of P.
Doesn’t dialysis duplicate the function of the *kidneys* in removing waste from the blood? The liver may convert one thing into another, but it’s ultimately the kidney’s job to filter and remove stuff that’s not supposed to be in the blood. Does Pagano give a reference for this dialysis claim (a clinical study, for example)? – Dave W.
Response:
I feel that you are right to be concerned… it seems to me that many of the drugs and even the lotions which can absorb thru the skin may cause more harm than good… just due to the fact that all powerful drugs weaken the liver and other organs… I know that doctors tend to poo poo this but I was on an antoi depressant for only 8 months and I believe ended up with some liver damage I had blood tests that showed it.
Whoa! Once again, where’s the evidence for the sweeping generalization that "all powerful drugs weaken the liver and other organs"? One antidepressant causing liver damage does not mean that all powerful drugs do this.
Response:
Dave It’s probably not a good idea to generalize about the causes of P, because it flares from so many different situations. I am very interested in more natural solutions however because my daughter is young and I would feel terrrible if later in life she found that her babies have birth defects because of some meds. I gave her for P. If a speicial diet and supplements help her control this(and it does) than I opt for this. I also feel that possibly if we continue to report these findings–eg. that a flare occured after taking a certain drug or after an illness or an infection–perhaps our medical community will finally find a common link. Wish full thinking or hoping I guess. I also support the P sufferers that have it so bad that they will take ANYTHING to control it. I just don’t feel that just because a Dr. prescribes something – that it is safe- it could cause other problems later in life. To summerize: Not all drugs cause organ damage but some can. Right? arlene
Response:
Can anyone suggest some natural remedies for psorasis as I don’t fancy the thought of a cocktail of chemicals inside me Thanks I feel that you are right to be concerned… it seems to me that many of the
drugs and even the lotions which can absorb thru the skin may cause more harm than good… just due to the fact that all powerful drugs weaken the liver and other organs… I know that doctors tend to poo poo this but I was on an antoi depressant for only 8 months and I believe ended up with some liver damage I had blood tests that showed it. Anyway I agree with the diet and vitamin approach. I’ve been taking 1000 mcg’s of b12(under the tongue) and 800 mcgs. of folic acid 3 times a day. Got the remedy from this news group (Don Sipler) says he’s still 90% clear after years of having P. using these vitamins.. not sure how it works…also have been on the Pagano diet but only for a couple weeks. I noticed less itching right away but when I started the vitamins I really noticed a difference in the spots after only a few days. Maybe it’s just coincidence … let us know how you do -Patty
Response:
If you’re concerned about what you’re putting inside of you, you should look into the effects of your diet. Consider the amounts or artificial flavors and colors, additives, and preservatives you consume every day. What about all these ingredients you can’t pronounce, let alone know what they are? Think about all overprocessing that many of our convenience foods go through. Our bodies have to put up with alot of stuff that our bodies were not designed to handle. Ok, I probably sound like a nut. I have adjusted my diet since November after reading John Pagano’s book "Healing Psoriasis: The Natural Alternative". I am seeing positive results. It took a couple of months to see any real results on my skin, but I felt so much better generally that there was no question of stopping. Now, 5 months later, I only use my Dovonex once every 1-2 weeks, and my skin continues its slow improvement. I’m hoping the spring sun will accelerate things. Anyway, I’m convinced that diet plays a key role, and I’ll continue to be careful with my diet. Hope this is helpful. Colette – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone suggest some natural remedies for psorasis as I don’t fancy the thought of a cocktail of chemicals inside me Thanks
Response:
Is the Pagano diet similar to the Atkins and Zone etc.? arlene
Response:
My 11 year old son hates this but in the winter when it flares up he takes a warm bath and adds about 1/4 to 1/2 cup of olive oil to the water. After several weeks of this he does clear up quite a bit and usually by then it is sunny again and that does the rest of the job. I should warn you that olive oil is about the most slippery substance known to man so please make sure if you try this not to forget that the tub has to be cleaned right away or somebody will fall and go boom. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone suggest some natural remedies for psorasis as I don’t fancy the thought of a cocktail of chemicals inside me Thanks
Response:
Psoriasis and insomnia are like cats. They cannot be conquered, only be appeased. Whenever I cannot fall asleep I just say to my ‘cat’, "Well, honey you don’t want to sleep, right? Let’s enjoy this book together". Nine out of ten times my ‘cat’ soon will beg me to switch off the lamp to let her sleep. I use the similar tactic to deal with psoriasis. 1. Never hate your psoriasis. it is part of your own skin. 2. Never try to conquer psoriasis with drugs or ointments of any kind. 3. Never scratch or rub it with your fingers. In my case washing with hot water and olive oil soap will stop the itching. 4. Sleep well, eat smartly, do exercise daily and take dietary supplements including zinc as advocated by all the natural healing books. 5. Use nothing but olive oil soap to clean your body including hair. 6. Don’t expect to get obvious result within weeks. Wait patiently for months or even years. In my case I clean 98% of my psoriasis in one year naturally as described above. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Can anyone suggest some natural remedies for psorasis as I don’t fancy the thought of a cocktail of chemicals inside me Thanks
Response:
Can anyone suggest some natural remedies for psorasis as I don’t fancy the thought of a cocktail of chemicals inside me Thanks
Response:
Larry You are making me feel as sick as when Harv when on about pancakes, syrup and eggs – uuuuuuuuggggghhhh
Sorry, Lass, wasn’t aware that you had a queasy tum-tum. Best, Larry
Response:
(Diane Abell) writes: Hey, I don’t know about an arthritis flare, but I get a heartburn just thinking about all of this stuff. Biscuits…. uggghh!!! Not a bit of it. Now when eaten together. The bad in either cancels out the other while the good of each multipies the other. May be a tad heavy on the choloesteral but that is about it. Best, Larry
Yeah. Straight from the "I Love to Infarct Cookbook". — Di dabell at access1 dot net
Response:
(Diane Abell) writes: Yeah. Straight from the "I Love to Infarct Cookbook".
I got it from "How To Clog The Arteries And Enjoy Doing It." It was a freebie from the local mortuary. Best, Larry
Response:
<<Some cases of arthritis might be caused by potassium salt deficiency, mollasses helps with that. It is also high in iron, and is great when used as a sugar substitute because white sugar is too acidy and actually will contribute to rheumatism. You should put one teaspoon in a cup of hot water and drink it as a tea about two or three times a day. It is full of minerals and also great for the skin and hair. I do believe that a prescription strength molasses cookie, 3 times a day would improve my attitude…if it’s good for my rheumatism <g and it’s gonna improve my "coat"…BONUS! Warm regards, Angela "Vitality shows in not only the ability to persist but the ability to start over. " – F. Scott Fitzgerald
Response:
Avoid them biscuits. They’ll cause a flair for sure. You use cornbread with Blackstrap Mollasses. You have to use sausage gravy if you’re gonna eat biscuits. Of course you can always have both. LOL With a couple of eggs over-easy and a cup of fresh coffee and you have what I call a real Breakfast! Best, Larry
Hey, I don’t know about an arthritis flare, but I get a heartburn just thinking about all of this stuff. Biscuits…. uggghh!!! — Di dabell at access1 dot net
Response:
Larry You are making me feel as sick as when Harv when on about pancakes, syrup and eggs – uuuuuuuuggggghhhh Regards Hildagh London, England (born and raised in Belfast, N.Ireland)
LOL! Poor Hildagh, that recent bout with food poisoning was a real bummer, naturally! Glad it wasn’t anything life threatening. Wouldn’t want to lose one of our best International Good Will Ambassadors! Cheers, Kitt
Response:
LOL That makes you sick and you like Haggis? ROFL Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’. We’re all in this together." Red Green
Response:
just thinking about all of this stuff. Biscuits…. uggghh!!! —
ROFL No thats heaven on a plate!!! Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’. We’re all in this together." Red Green
Response:
(Diane Abell) writes: Hey, I don’t know about an arthritis flare, but I get a heartburn just thinking about all of this stuff. Biscuits…. uggghh!!!
Not a bit of it. Now when eaten together. The bad in either cancels out the other while the good of each multipies the other. May be a tad heavy on the choloesteral but that is about it. Best, Larry
Response:
Larry said, " With a couple of eggs over-easy and a cup of fresh coffee and you have what I call a real
Breakfast!" So what time should I expect you Larry?? <G Amy I live in a world of mystery and intrigue. I teach kindergarten.
Response:
Tammy said, "white sugar is too acidy and actually will contribute to rheumatism." I was wonder where you found this information? I have never heard that before. Amy I live in a world of mystery and intrigue. I teach kindergarten
Response:
Larry You are making me feel as sick as when Harv when on about pancakes, syrup and eggs – uuuuuuuuggggghhhh Regards Hildagh London, England (born and raised in Belfast, N.Ireland) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (LkGoddess) writes: Hey Sarah, you bring the Blackstrap Mollasses and I’ll make the biscuits! <yum! We can conduct a science experiement…..see if it anti-imflams or not….but then who cares….it’s just yummy to eat! Avoid them biscuits. They’ll cause a flair for sure. You use cornbread with Blackstrap Mollasses. You have to use sausage gravy if you’re gonna eat biscuits. Of course you can always have both. LOL With a couple of eggs over-easy and a cup of fresh coffee and you have what I call a real Breakfast! Best, Larry
Response:
(LkGoddess) writes: Hey Sarah, you bring the Blackstrap Mollasses and I’ll make the biscuits! <yum! We can conduct a science experiement…..see if it anti-imflams or not….but then who cares….it’s just yummy to eat!
Avoid them biscuits. They’ll cause a flair for sure. You use cornbread with Blackstrap Mollasses. You have to use sausage gravy if you’re gonna eat biscuits. Of course you can always have both. LOL With a couple of eggs over-easy and a cup of fresh coffee and you have what I call a real Breakfast! Best, Larry
Response:
Some cases of arthritis might be caused by potassium salt deficiency, mollasses helps with that. It is also high in iron, and is great when used as a sugar substitute because white sugar is too acidy and actually will contribute to rheumatism. You should put one teaspoon in a cup of hot water and drink it as a tea about two or three times a day. It is full of minerals and also great for the skin and hair. Don’t go absolutely crazy on it too fast though or you might get stomach upset. Start slowly and work your way up. Tammy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve looked into natural remedies for arthritis. An interesting one to try ( I’m trying it right now) is Blackstrap Mollasses. Tammy, I love Blackstrap Mollasses. What is it supposed to do for arthritis? Is it anti-inflam or something? Sarah L "Friends are those people who know the words to the song in your heart and sing them back to you when you have forgotten the words." (unattributed)
Response:
Thanks for the tips, Tammy! What kind of arthritis do you have? I have RA, and have been having more heartburn lately, Hmm, maybe I should go back to taking ginger again, I’ve slacked off it lately. I had good results with it for heartburn, taking it in capsules, and adding fresh ginger to foods. Thanks again for the reminder. Do stick around, and let us know how Tammy is doing! Regards, Liz G
Response:
I’ve looked into natural remedies for arthritis. An interesting one to try ( I’m trying it right now) is Blackstrap Mollasses.
Tammy, I love Blackstrap Mollasses. What is it supposed to do for arthritis? Is it anti-inflam or something? Sarah L "Friends are those people who know the words to the song in your heart and sing them back to you when you have forgotten the words." (unattributed)
Response:
Hey Sarah, you bring the Blackstrap Mollasses and I’ll make the biscuits! <yum! We can conduct a science experiement…..see if it anti-imflams or not….but then who cares….it’s just yummy to eat! <G Very intersting stuff Tammy! Amy I live in a world of mystery and intrigue. I teach kindergarten.
Response:
Hi Liz, I’m actually not sure yet whether it is arthritis, but I’m sure trying out some of the natural ways of dealing with it. I’m really having severe back and shoulder pain lately. Sometimes it’s in my hips, and mostly in the evenings or at night. The middle of the night pain is horrific! My back becomes totally immobile and it affects my lungs I’m checking into arachnoiditis as well. Gosh lately I just kind of ache all over. The natural remedies come from a bit of background in the herbalist area. I have used home remedies for many things, with great results. The ginger I use for energy, but started my dad on it for GERD. It worked well for him. And now I’m going to try it again and see if it’ll put some heat into these bones! I get so cold! Anyway, I’m getting tests done now to find out exactly what I have, I just really like to have a good idea first. (I never was one to just take orders ) Hope to hear from you often! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the tips, Tammy! What kind of arthritis do you have? I have RA, and have been having more heartburn lately, Hmm, maybe I should go back to taking ginger again, I’ve slacked off it lately. I had good results with it for heartburn, taking it in capsules, and adding fresh ginger to foods. Thanks again for the reminder. Do stick around, and let us know how Tammy is doing! Regards, Liz G
Response:
I’ve looked into natural remedies for arthritis. An interesting one to try ( I’m trying it right now) is Blackstrap Mollasses. It has to be Blackstrap though, reg mollasses is processed differently and has no effect. Blackstrap will also give you increased energy, calciam, and a host of other great effects. Apparently it’s good for alot more than arthritis. Another great one is glucosamine. (not the kind you buy at a local drugstore.) Buy it from a natural foods and herbs place. Make sure it is not full of fillers. ie/ cellulose is the most common filler. It’s in ever less expensive product out there almost. Cellulose is sawdust. Seriously. Anyway, these might just help. Ginger (as mentioned by others in this group) is awesome if taken from the fraw root before it is processed. You can buy whole ginger root at any grocery store. What I do is run it through a juicer and keep it in a jar in my fridge. One teaspoon of this juice every AM with help with various ailments, and works wonders with heartburn or acid refux. Within about a week you’ll notice a big difference. I think you take it for three weeks to cure heartburn for good apparently. It will also give you a real energy kick. Tammy Take care Tammy
Response:
Larry You are making me feel as sick as when Harv when on about pancakes, syrup and eggs – uuuuuuuuggggghhhh
Sorry, Lass, wasn’t aware that you had a queasy tum-tum. Best, Larry
Response:
(Diane Abell) writes: Hey, I don’t know about an arthritis flare, but I get a heartburn just thinking about all of this stuff. Biscuits…. uggghh!!! Not a bit of it. Now when eaten together. The bad in either cancels out the other while the good of each multipies the other. May be a tad heavy on the choloesteral but that is about it. Best, Larry
Yeah. Straight from the "I Love to Infarct Cookbook". — Di dabell at access1 dot net
Response:
(Diane Abell) writes: Yeah. Straight from the "I Love to Infarct Cookbook".
I got it from "How To Clog The Arteries And Enjoy Doing It." It was a freebie from the local mortuary. Best, Larry
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<<Some cases of arthritis might be caused by potassium salt deficiency, mollasses helps with that. It is also high in iron, and is great when used as a sugar substitute because white sugar is too acidy and actually will contribute to rheumatism. You should put one teaspoon in a cup of hot water and drink it as a tea about two or three times a day. It is full of minerals and also great for the skin and hair. I do believe that a prescription strength molasses cookie, 3 times a day would improve my attitude…if it’s good for my rheumatism <g and it’s gonna improve my "coat"…BONUS! Warm regards, Angela "Vitality shows in not only the ability to persist but the ability to start over. " – F. Scott Fitzgerald
Response:
Avoid them biscuits. They’ll cause a flair for sure. You use cornbread with Blackstrap Mollasses. You have to use sausage gravy if you’re gonna eat biscuits. Of course you can always have both. LOL With a couple of eggs over-easy and a cup of fresh coffee and you have what I call a real Breakfast! Best, Larry
Hey, I don’t know about an arthritis flare, but I get a heartburn just thinking about all of this stuff. Biscuits…. uggghh!!! — Di dabell at access1 dot net
Response:
Larry You are making me feel as sick as when Harv when on about pancakes, syrup and eggs – uuuuuuuuggggghhhh Regards Hildagh London, England (born and raised in Belfast, N.Ireland)
LOL! Poor Hildagh, that recent bout with food poisoning was a real bummer, naturally! Glad it wasn’t anything life threatening. Wouldn’t want to lose one of our best International Good Will Ambassadors! Cheers, Kitt
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LOL That makes you sick and you like Haggis? ROFL Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’. We’re all in this together." Red Green
Response:
just thinking about all of this stuff. Biscuits…. uggghh!!! —
ROFL No thats heaven on a plate!!! Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’. We’re all in this together." Red Green
Response:
(Diane Abell) writes: Hey, I don’t know about an arthritis flare, but I get a heartburn just thinking about all of this stuff. Biscuits…. uggghh!!!
Not a bit of it. Now when eaten together. The bad in either cancels out the other while the good of each multipies the other. May be a tad heavy on the choloesteral but that is about it. Best, Larry
Response:
Larry said, " With a couple of eggs over-easy and a cup of fresh coffee and you have what I call a real
Breakfast!" So what time should I expect you Larry?? <G Amy I live in a world of mystery and intrigue. I teach kindergarten.
Response:
Tammy said, "white sugar is too acidy and actually will contribute to rheumatism." I was wonder where you found this information? I have never heard that before. Amy I live in a world of mystery and intrigue. I teach kindergarten
Response:
Larry You are making me feel as sick as when Harv when on about pancakes, syrup and eggs – uuuuuuuuggggghhhh Regards Hildagh London, England (born and raised in Belfast, N.Ireland) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (LkGoddess) writes: Hey Sarah, you bring the Blackstrap Mollasses and I’ll make the biscuits! <yum! We can conduct a science experiement…..see if it anti-imflams or not….but then who cares….it’s just yummy to eat! Avoid them biscuits. They’ll cause a flair for sure. You use cornbread with Blackstrap Mollasses. You have to use sausage gravy if you’re gonna eat biscuits. Of course you can always have both. LOL With a couple of eggs over-easy and a cup of fresh coffee and you have what I call a real Breakfast! Best, Larry
Response:
(LkGoddess) writes: Hey Sarah, you bring the Blackstrap Mollasses and I’ll make the biscuits! <yum! We can conduct a science experiement…..see if it anti-imflams or not….but then who cares….it’s just yummy to eat!
Avoid them biscuits. They’ll cause a flair for sure. You use cornbread with Blackstrap Mollasses. You have to use sausage gravy if you’re gonna eat biscuits. Of course you can always have both. LOL With a couple of eggs over-easy and a cup of fresh coffee and you have what I call a real Breakfast! Best, Larry
Response:
Some cases of arthritis might be caused by potassium salt deficiency, mollasses helps with that. It is also high in iron, and is great when used as a sugar substitute because white sugar is too acidy and actually will contribute to rheumatism. You should put one teaspoon in a cup of hot water and drink it as a tea about two or three times a day. It is full of minerals and also great for the skin and hair. Don’t go absolutely crazy on it too fast though or you might get stomach upset. Start slowly and work your way up. Tammy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve looked into natural remedies for arthritis. An interesting one to try ( I’m trying it right now) is Blackstrap Mollasses. Tammy, I love Blackstrap Mollasses. What is it supposed to do for arthritis? Is it anti-inflam or something? Sarah L "Friends are those people who know the words to the song in your heart and sing them back to you when you have forgotten the words." (unattributed)
Response:
Thanks for the tips, Tammy! What kind of arthritis do you have? I have RA, and have been having more heartburn lately, Hmm, maybe I should go back to taking ginger again, I’ve slacked off it lately. I had good results with it for heartburn, taking it in capsules, and adding fresh ginger to foods. Thanks again for the reminder. Do stick around, and let us know how Tammy is doing! Regards, Liz G
Response:
I’ve looked into natural remedies for arthritis. An interesting one to try ( I’m trying it right now) is Blackstrap Mollasses.
Tammy, I love Blackstrap Mollasses. What is it supposed to do for arthritis? Is it anti-inflam or something? Sarah L "Friends are those people who know the words to the song in your heart and sing them back to you when you have forgotten the words." (unattributed)
Response:
Hey Sarah, you bring the Blackstrap Mollasses and I’ll make the biscuits! <yum! We can conduct a science experiement…..see if it anti-imflams or not….but then who cares….it’s just yummy to eat! <G Very intersting stuff Tammy! Amy I live in a world of mystery and intrigue. I teach kindergarten.
Response:
Hi Liz, I’m actually not sure yet whether it is arthritis, but I’m sure trying out some of the natural ways of dealing with it. I’m really having severe back and shoulder pain lately. Sometimes it’s in my hips, and mostly in the evenings or at night. The middle of the night pain is horrific! My back becomes totally immobile and it affects my lungs I’m checking into arachnoiditis as well. Gosh lately I just kind of ache all over. The natural remedies come from a bit of background in the herbalist area. I have used home remedies for many things, with great results. The ginger I use for energy, but started my dad on it for GERD. It worked well for him. And now I’m going to try it again and see if it’ll put some heat into these bones! I get so cold! Anyway, I’m getting tests done now to find out exactly what I have, I just really like to have a good idea first. (I never was one to just take orders ) Hope to hear from you often! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the tips, Tammy! What kind of arthritis do you have? I have RA, and have been having more heartburn lately, Hmm, maybe I should go back to taking ginger again, I’ve slacked off it lately. I had good results with it for heartburn, taking it in capsules, and adding fresh ginger to foods. Thanks again for the reminder. Do stick around, and let us know how Tammy is doing! Regards, Liz G
Response:
I’ve looked into natural remedies for arthritis. An interesting one to try ( I’m trying it right now) is Blackstrap Mollasses. It has to be Blackstrap though, reg mollasses is processed differently and has no effect. Blackstrap will also give you increased energy, calciam, and a host of other great effects. Apparently it’s good for alot more than arthritis. Another great one is glucosamine. (not the kind you buy at a local drugstore.) Buy it from a natural foods and herbs place. Make sure it is not full of fillers. ie/ cellulose is the most common filler. It’s in ever less expensive product out there almost. Cellulose is sawdust. Seriously. Anyway, these might just help. Ginger (as mentioned by others in this group) is awesome if taken from the fraw root before it is processed. You can buy whole ginger root at any grocery store. What I do is run it through a juicer and keep it in a jar in my fridge. One teaspoon of this juice every AM with help with various ailments, and works wonders with heartburn or acid refux. Within about a week you’ll notice a big difference. I think you take it for three weeks to cure heartburn for good apparently. It will also give you a real energy kick. Tammy Take care Tammy
Response:
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The earliest that I’ll be able to talk to my doctor about this would be late December, but in the mean time, what do y’all think? -Emily Emily, you need to see a good asthma doctor ASAP. In fact most GPs could do a much better job than this. You need to throw most of your drugs out and start over. Also suggest you learn some more about asthma and how it should be treated. You could start out by reading : http://www.radix.net/~mwg/asthma-gen.html alt.support.asthma FAQ First priority is stop the beta blocker and get a steroid inhaler. Ellis 