Posts belonging to Category 'managing asthma'

Flavoring for Prednisolone?

Question:

Sounds like my son!!  He always vomitted that med.  Ask your doc about using other forms of steroid.  Also, with my son no matter when you fed him or if you used a syringe he would vomit it.  Ask about pediapred which has a slightly better flavor.  The drawback is that the kiddies have to take alot more of the syrup to get the same dose as the prelone types, but he may hold it down better, I know my son did.   Also, do not give it with the amoxicillin as both can be tough on the stomach!!  Good luck!!  Marie — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway.

Response:

Ask your doctor to change the prescrition to pediapred.  You might have to double the dose but it tastes better.  Its clear liquid with a fruitty flavor.  My son was the same way and it was an awful experience but switching to pediapred was better.  ITs the same drug but prelone is more concentrated and tastes 1000’s times worse. Good Luck, Gina

Response:

Another vote for Pediapred here — it was the ONLY thing my 13-month old son could keep down. There are (or were, a few years ago) two formulations of Pediapred — a cloudy one and a clear one. We started with the clear version and he held that down. One time the pharmacist gave us the cloudy (looked milky in the brown bottle) version and my son promptly vomited it up. You might also try crushing the tablet version into his favorite food. Although it might stay down longer, I can’t imagine he’d go for that trick more than once as it’s still incredibly bitter. ;-) I’ve heard of some doctors providing the steroid via injection. IMHO that would be my very last resort — as if oral steroids weren’t bad enough systemically, sheesh, let’s just mainline it, eh? I would also ask the doctor about inhaled steroids and a spacing chamber with mask (Aerochamber, for example) if you find your son repeating his prednisolone bursts. HTH Jeanne Ed’s Asthma Track http://asthmatrack.com/

Response:

Advice needed!!! My 13 month old is being treated for RSV  (respiratory virus) and a potential asthma condition.  The Dr.’s have prescribed and emphasize the importance of giving him prednisolone (syrup), as well as Albuterol nebulizer treatments. He cannot tolerate the taste of the medicine, and vomits the medicine and everything else he has eaten (the little he has eaten).

When I was a child, I vomited anytime I ingested something I was allergic to. I would report this reaction to the doctor and make sure that the child it not allergic to the medication or to something in the medication (e.g. preservative or other item). Joan

Response:

If anyone here has any doubt about why the baby is throwing up the Prelone (methylprednisolone) my advice is to try it. If the taste doesn’t make you nauseous then you are unique. The good news is that when babies spit up people universally over-estimate the volume of vomitus. I have seen neonatal ICU nurses document that babies had thrown up more than they had eaten over the course of a day. When you point out that the baby is still making urine and gaining weight they get defensive and insist that their impossible estimates are correct. The point is that he is probably keeping more down than you think. While steroids are commonly given for RSV, it is not clear that they help. My advise is to give him the doses and let him throw it up if he will. As long as he is improving don’t worry about it. If he is getting worse then he needs to go back to the doctor for further evaluation. I also am curious about the diagnosis of RSV and treatment with amoxicillin. This does not seem to make sense. — Good Luck, CBI, M.D.

Advice needed!!! My 13 month old is being treated for RSV  (respiratory virus) and a potential asthma condition.  The Dr.’s have prescribed and emphasize the importance of giving him prednisolone (syrup), as well as Albuterol nebulizer treatments. He cannot tolerate the taste of the medicine, and vomits the medicine and everything else he has eaten (the little he has eaten).  I can understand the need to give the medicine, however, his wheezing and viral symptoms are now being sidelined to his lack of eating. We have tried to disguise the flavor with a little Kool-Aid, baby cereal, and the bubble-gum flavor of his amoxicillin.  Nothing works, and he is trusting us less to offer any food to him. I’ve heard pure vanilla extract?  If so, to what proportion?  Any other suggestions? Thanks, Steve Staker

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Advice needed!!! My 13 month old is being treated for RSV  (respiratory virus) and a potential asthma condition.  The Dr.’s have prescribed and emphasize the importance of giving him prednisolone (syrup), as well as Albuterol nebulizer treatments. He cannot tolerate the taste of the medicine, and vomits the medicine and everything else he has eaten (the little he has eaten).  I can understand the need to give the medicine, however, his wheezing and viral symptoms are now being sidelined to his lack of eating. We have tried to disguise the flavor with a little Kool-Aid, baby cereal, and the bubble-gum flavor of his amoxicillin.  Nothing works, and he is trusting us less to offer any food to him. I’ve heard pure vanilla extract?  If so, to what proportion?  Any other suggestions?

First, feed the baby BEFORE medicating.  Prednisolone should be taken on a full stomach.  Second, get a syringe from your doctor.  Fill the syringe with the pred, and shoot it into the back of his throat.  He will swallow reflexively.  Nothing is going to disguise the bitter, oily flavor of this med. Chris Owens

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Advice needed!!! My 13 month old is being treated for RSV  (respiratory virus) and a potential asthma condition.  The Dr.’s have prescribed and emphasize the importance of giving him prednisolone (syrup), as well as Albuterol nebulizer treatments. He cannot tolerate the taste of the medicine, and vomits the medicine and everything else he has eaten (the little he has eaten).  I can understand the need to give the medicine, however, his wheezing and viral symptoms are now being sidelined to his lack of eating. We have tried to disguise the flavor with a little Kool-Aid, baby cereal, and the bubble-gum flavor of his amoxicillin.  Nothing works, and he is trusting us less to offer any food to him. I’ve heard pure vanilla extract?  If so, to what proportion?  Any other suggestions? Steve Staker Here’s a link: http://people.delphi.com/drchrisr/noframes/asthmaininfants.html Managing Asthma in Infants (and Young Children) By Marianne Frieri, MD, PhD

Links on RSV: http://www.rsvinfo.com/home_b.html  RSV http://www.rsvinfo.com/diagnosing/diagnosing_1.html Excerpt: "Confirmation of RSV   For confirmation of RSV, proper testing of the patient’s   respiratory secretions will:      1.Positively identify RSV        2.Rule out bacterial infection   Rapid diagnostic tests (direct antigen) are the preferred   diagnostic method since results are available within   hours. Four such diagnostic test kits using   immunofluorescence or enzyme-linked immunosorbent   assays are essential to the rapid diagnosis of active   RSV infection. " http://www.rsvinfo.com/diagnosing/diagnosing_1.html "Management and treatment of patients with all   degrees of RSV severity is necessary to relieve   symptoms and reduce the likelihood of long-term   illnesses caused by RSV. The treatment of mild cases   of RSV has typically focused on relieving the   symptoms: cough and cold medicines (variable in   efficacy) and bronchodilators such as metaproterenol   or albuterol to help relieve chest congestion and   wheezing. Additional studies assessing the   effectiveness of bronchodilators suggest that   epinephrine, racemic epinephrine, and ipratropium   bromide may have a clinical role in the management of   acute bronchiolitis.1" http://www.rsvinfo.com/sequelae/sequelae.html  RSV & Asthma So it appears the nebulized albuterol is for RSV (and asthma), the prednisolone syrup is for asthma, the amoxicillin is for some bacterial infection. Sounds like vomiting is a major side effect; flavoring the steroids wouldn’t stop vomiting. Steroids like prednisolone should be taken with food (easy to digest). GE reflux could get into lungs worsening asthma. Is the amoicillin really necessary? So I recomend a 2nd opinion from another doctor, preferably a pediatric allergist. For PI and side effects of drugs, see www.rxlist.com http://www.ama-assn.org/aps/asthma/infant.htm What If Your Infant Has Asthma? JAMA http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/MedEd/medicine/Allergy/Asthma/asthws… Infant Asthma Ellis, not a doctor

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Advice needed!!! My 13 month old is being treated for RSV  (respiratory virus) and a potential asthma condition.  The Dr.’s have prescribed and emphasize the importance of giving him prednisolone (syrup), as well as Albuterol nebulizer treatments. He cannot tolerate the taste of the medicine, and vomits the medicine and everything else he has eaten (the little he has eaten).  I can understand the need to give the medicine, however, his wheezing and viral symptoms are now being sidelined to his lack of eating. We have tried to disguise the flavor with a little Kool-Aid, baby cereal, and the bubble-gum flavor of his amoxicillin.  Nothing works, and he is trusting us less to offer any food to him. I’ve heard pure vanilla extract?  If so, to what proportion?  Any other suggestions? Steve Staker

There are other ways to administer steroids to infants, ie inhaled steroids like Flovent using an AeroChamber spacer and face mask. What is the amoxicilin treating? It’s an antibiotic related to penicillin. If you’re not seeing a specialist, referral to a pediatric allergist is advisable. Here’s a link: http://people.delphi.com/drchrisr/noframes/asthmaininfants.html Managing Asthma in Infants (and Young Children) By Marianne Frieri, MD, PhD Excerpt: "Identification of asthma triggers is essential in treating  asthma in infants. Upper-respiratory infections are one of  the most common asthma triggers. A child’s condition can worsen very quickly with an upper-respiratory infection. This can  often catch a parent or caretaker off guard. An important component of treatment is early intervention.  If an infant has an upper-respiratory infection and wheezing becomes pronounced or worsens, the physician may prescribe an oral corticosteroid to keep the condition from progressing into an acute episode. Allergies may also be involved. Food allergy, especially to milk  or egg protein, can be a trigger of asthma in early infancy. (Frieri M., Martinez S., Trotta P., Pediatric Asthma Allergy Immunology 1993l 7:27-35) Sensitivity to airborne allergens – such as pollens, mold, animal dander, cockroach and dust mites –  can also play a role. Children can develop these allergies as well at a very early age. Skin testing to identify  allergies to food or airborne allergens can be done as early as one year of age. RAST testing  (a blood test) may be recommended if the infant has eczema, which would interfere with observing the  results of the skin test. (Martinez S., Dominique J., Klotz S.O., Frieri M., Ann Allergy, Asthma,  Immunology 1995; 74:81a)" Ellis

Response:

Advice needed!!! My 13 month old is being treated for RSV  (respiratory virus) and a potential asthma condition.  The Dr.’s have prescribed and emphasize the importance of giving him prednisolone (syrup), as well as Albuterol nebulizer treatments.   He cannot tolerate the taste of the medicine, and vomits the medicine and everything else he has eaten (the little he has eaten).  I can understand the need to give the medicine, however, his wheezing and viral symptoms are now being sidelined to his lack of eating.   We have tried to disguise the flavor with a little Kool-Aid, baby cereal, and the bubble-gum flavor of his amoxicillin.  Nothing works, and he is trusting us less to offer any food to him.     I’ve heard pure vanilla extract?  If so, to what proportion?  Any other suggestions? Thanks, Steve Staker

Response:

Oh Boy- I know how difficult it is to get my kids to take meds- I recently came across this in Child Magazine: acompany called flavorx 1-800-884-5771, they say doctors, parents and pharmacists can call this number to check if one of the 42 flavors (fda approved) are compatible with your child’s prescription- I will fax you copy of article if you want more info.good luck!

Response:

Backing off the Serevent

Question:

All the nasal steriods gave me nose bleeds and the inhaled steroids caused me to cough blood daily so I gradually stopped taking all of them and tried the Nasalcrom…then I switched to saltwater…then to a diluted solution of black walnut hull which cleared my chronic sinusitis of 30 years in nearly a single dose. (I probably did 3 applications) Now I’m off all the meds I was given for asthma and the ostensible related causes such as reflux and sinusitis. I’m not suggesting anyone else do this…just that it worked for me. Sunny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I used Nasocrom at one time with almost no results.  It’s a very weak drug that only works against a few types of allergens.  That’s probably why it is now available over the counter.  Stick with the steroids! Atrovent also has a nasal spray out. I’m not real impressed with it but it may be worth a try. — Good Luck, CBI, M.D. Ann, Nasal cromolyn is called Nasalcrom, now OTC. I’ve been trying it the last couple of weeks to reduce my use of Vancenase. It is partially effective. I no longer use the Vancenase in the am, just the pm before going to bed; its cut my use of steroid nasal spray about in half. The PI says for Nasalcrom one spray each nostril 3-4x/day (I probably only use it a couple times a day). I’m using up an old bottle of Vancenase AQ; Schering no longer makes the single strength version (42 ug). [I think single strength Beconase is still available.] I also have a new supply of Vancenase 84. The prescription says to use 1 or 2 sniffs per nostril twice a day. If I did that I would be taking 8 sniffs of Vancenase 84/day, the equivalent of 8 puffs of Vanceril DS which is also 84 ug of beclomethasone per application. So I would be more than doubling my total dose of beclomethasone. (I presently use 4-6 puffs Vanceril DS 84/day but would need twice that much without steroid sparing drugs) I agree that Low Doses of inhaled steroids are safe for most people, but when combined with a steroid nasal spray, the total dose of steroid can easily double, putting a Low inhaled dose into the Medium dose category. Nasacort is triamcinolone [55 ug/spray], same steroid as Azmacort. http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/triamnas.htm Another nonsteroidal drug that can be used is antihistamines. I used to take a Chlortrimeton at bedtime; maybe I should try it again. Ellis In the interest of cutting down the total inhaled steroids, I wonder if I should consider switching from Nasacort to the newly OTC sodium cromlyn-based nasal spray (the name is escapint me at the moment).  Has anyone else found it to be effective?  (I know this is just a tad off-topic, but I hope you will bear with me due to the interest in the group in overall effects of inhaled steroids.) Thanks, Ann This isn’t just my opinion, but that of the ‘97 Expert Panel Report 2. Serevent can be used as a steroid-sparing drug. See: http://www.ama-assn.org/special/asthma/treatmnt/guide/guidelin comp3/longterm/fig3-4b.htm With the new warning from the FDA on inhaled and nasal corticosteroids on growth in children, it would seem prudent for adults to also minimize the steroid dose; especially if also using corticosteroid nasal sprays, since the cumulative effect of the steroids needs to be considered. See: http://www.fda.gov/cder/news/cs-label.htm Class Labeling for Intranasal and Orally Inhaled Corticosteroid  Containing Drug Products Regarding the Potential for Growth  Suppression in Children Division of Pulmonary Drug Products Ellis

Response:

Atrovent and Nasalcrom are two different products. I have not been real impressed with either one. It may still be worth a shot to see if you have better luck. — Good Luck, CBI, M.D. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I used Nasocrom at one time with almost no results.  It’s a very weak drug that only works against a few types of allergens.  That’s probably why it is now available over the counter.  Stick with the steroids! Atrovent also has a nasal spray out. I’m not real impressed with it but it may be worth a try. — Good Luck, CBI, M.D. Ann, Nasal cromolyn is called Nasalcrom, now OTC. I’ve been trying it the last couple of weeks to reduce my use of Vancenase. It is partially effective. I no longer use the Vancenase in the am, just the pm before going to bed; its cut my use of steroid nasal spray about in half. The PI says for Nasalcrom one spray each nostril 3-4x/day (I probably only use it a couple times a day). I’m using up an old bottle of Vancenase AQ; Schering no longer makes the single strength version (42 ug). [I think single strength Beconase is still available.] I also have a new supply of Vancenase 84. The prescription says to use 1 or 2 sniffs per nostril twice a day. If I did that I would be taking 8 sniffs of Vancenase 84/day, the equivalent of 8 puffs of Vanceril DS which is also 84 ug of beclomethasone per application. So I would be more than doubling my total dose of beclomethasone. (I presently use 4-6 puffs Vanceril DS 84/day but would need twice that much without steroid sparing drugs) I agree that Low Doses of inhaled steroids are safe for most people, but when combined with a steroid nasal spray, the total dose of steroid can easily double, putting a Low inhaled dose into the Medium dose category. Nasacort is triamcinolone [55 ug/spray], same steroid as Azmacort. http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/triamnas.htm Another nonsteroidal drug that can be used is antihistamines. I used to take a Chlortrimeton at bedtime; maybe I should try it again. Ellis In the interest of cutting down the total inhaled steroids, I wonder if I should consider switching from Nasacort to the newly OTC sodium cromlyn-based nasal spray (the name is escapint me at the moment). Has anyone else found it to be effective?  (I know this is just a tad off-topic, but I hope you will bear with me due to the interest in the group in overall effects of inhaled steroids.) Thanks, Ann This isn’t just my opinion, but that of the ‘97 Expert Panel Report 2. Serevent can be used as a steroid-sparing drug. See: http://www.ama-assn.org/special/asthma/treatmnt/guide/guidelin comp3/longterm/fig3-4b.htm With the new warning from the FDA on inhaled and nasal corticosteroids on growth in children, it would seem prudent for adults to also minimize the steroid dose; especially if also using corticosteroid nasal sprays, since the cumulative effect of the steroids needs to be considered. See: http://www.fda.gov/cder/news/cs-label.htm Class Labeling for Intranasal and Orally Inhaled Corticosteroid  Containing Drug Products Regarding the Potential for Growth  Suppression in Children Division of Pulmonary Drug Products Ellis

Response:

I used Nasocrom at one time with almost no results.  It’s a very weak drug that only works against a few types of allergens.  That’s probably why it is now available over the counter.  Stick with the steroids! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Atrovent also has a nasal spray out. I’m not real impressed with it but it may be worth a try. — Good Luck, CBI, M.D. Ann, Nasal cromolyn is called Nasalcrom, now OTC. I’ve been trying it the last couple of weeks to reduce my use of Vancenase. It is partially effective. I no longer use the Vancenase in the am, just the pm before going to bed; its cut my use of steroid nasal spray about in half. The PI says for Nasalcrom one spray each nostril 3-4x/day (I probably only use it a couple times a day). I’m using up an old bottle of Vancenase AQ; Schering no longer makes the single strength version (42 ug). [I think single strength Beconase is still available.] I also have a new supply of Vancenase 84. The prescription says to use 1 or 2 sniffs per nostril twice a day. If I did that I would be taking 8 sniffs of Vancenase 84/day, the equivalent of 8 puffs of Vanceril DS which is also 84 ug of beclomethasone per application. So I would be more than doubling my total dose of beclomethasone. (I presently use 4-6 puffs Vanceril DS 84/day but would need twice that much without steroid sparing drugs) I agree that Low Doses of inhaled steroids are safe for most people, but when combined with a steroid nasal spray, the total dose of steroid can easily double, putting a Low inhaled dose into the Medium dose category. Nasacort is triamcinolone [55 ug/spray], same steroid as Azmacort. http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/triamnas.htm Another nonsteroidal drug that can be used is antihistamines. I used to take a Chlortrimeton at bedtime; maybe I should try it again. Ellis In the interest of cutting down the total inhaled steroids, I wonder if I should consider switching from Nasacort to the newly OTC sodium cromlyn-based nasal spray (the name is escapint me at the moment).  Has anyone else found it to be effective?  (I know this is just a tad off-topic, but I hope you will bear with me due to the interest in the group in overall effects of inhaled steroids.) Thanks, Ann This isn’t just my opinion, but that of the ‘97 Expert Panel Report 2. Serevent can be used as a steroid-sparing drug. See: http://www.ama-assn.org/special/asthma/treatmnt/guide/guidelin comp3/longterm/fig3-4b.htm With the new warning from the FDA on inhaled and nasal corticosteroids on growth in children, it would seem prudent for adults to also minimize the steroid dose; especially if also using corticosteroid nasal sprays, since the cumulative effect of the steroids needs to be considered. See: http://www.fda.gov/cder/news/cs-label.htm Class Labeling for Intranasal and Orally Inhaled Corticosteroid  Containing Drug Products Regarding the Potential for Growth  Suppression in Children Division of Pulmonary Drug Products Ellis

Response:

Atrovent Nasal is used for drying up a runny nose. Nasalcrom is a mild anti-inflammatory for treating swollen nasal tissue caused by allergies. Both have oral inhaler versions; Atrovent a slow acting bronchodilator used for COPD and sometimes asthma; Intal (cromolyn) for Mild asthma and often used in children with allergic asthma to avoid steroid inhalers. Checking the PI: http://www.mayohealth.org/usp/html/0002713.htm?Atrovent+-+Ipratropium…) Excerpt: "Description

Pregnancy and asthma medications

Question:

This is good advice. The current thinking in asthma in pregnancy is to treat it just as you would if the women was not pregnant. The one caveat is that we don’t know as much about the safety of the new oral leukotriene inhibitors, so you may want to get off of them. But all of the other meds, including theophylline and inhaled steroids, are considered safe. The most dangerous thing for your baby would be to have a major attack and let the oxygen levels drop. You should find a doctor to treat your asthma who will not be so freaked out by the fact that you are pregnant. — Good Luck, CBI, M.D. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi CL I have also had asthma all my life (I’m 35). I mainly use inhalers (Proventil). I had a healthy baby boy 21 months ago and used my inhaler throughout my entire pregnancy with my doctor’s permission. You should consult your primary doctor and OBGYN and get their opinions. No doubt they have had many pregnant asthmatic patients. Connie — Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway. http://www.talkway.com

Response:

I am 24 years old and I have had asthma since I was 2.  I have been on medications all my life.  I am now married and wanting to have a baby.  My allergist wants me to go off all my meds.  I have tried this three times now and have not been successful, so it looks like I will have to stay on my meds during pregnancy.  I am worried about potential harmful effects to my baby such as birth defects, etc.  Does anyone have any input.  I need all the support I can get! CL

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Asthma needs to be controlled during pregnancy since lack of oxygen to the fetus can cause fetal distress. Some but not all asthma & allergy meds are considered safe during pregnancy. The steroid inhaler recommended during pregnancy is beclomethasone (Vanceril, Beclovent) due to its long history of saftey. Other steroid inhalers are often used. Azmacort (triamcinolone) should not be used in pregnancy (see first link) Bronchodilators like Ventolin (albuterol) are usually considered safe. Terbutaline is often the recommended rescue inhaler in pregnancy. Here are links with more info: http://www.ama-assn.org/special/asthma/treatmnt/updates/pregnant.htm JAMA

The FDA is your friend

Question:

Caowens writes:  I had my first attack when I was 2 hours old.  If not for the availability of adrenaline, I wouldn’t have lived past my first birthday.

How can you prove your statement that you wouldn’t have lived past your first birthday if not for the adrenaline?  You can state your *opinion*, but you can’t state this as a _fact_.

Response:

We don’t have access yet to Buteyko’s scientific work, because I don’t think it has been translated yet.

So you are saying that you have _no_ scientific evidence in support of Buteyko theory? Also, I find the ‘not translated’ comment odd.  English is the international language of science and anything that makes it into a reputable scientific journal should be readilly available.

Response:

Caowens writes:  I had my first attack when I was 2 hours old.  If not for the availability of adrenaline, I wouldn’t have lived past my first birthday. How can you prove your statement that you wouldn’t have lived past your first birthday if not for the adrenaline?  You can state your *opinion*, but you can’t state this as a _fact_.

Sure I can.  I had an asthma attack when I was 2 hours old.  My heart stopped. The doctors used adrenaline to restart it.  Hence, if it wasn’t for adrenaline, I wouldn’t have made it to my first birthday.  In point of fact, I wouldn’t have made it to my first 24 hours.  In the following year, I needed adrenaline 17 times . . . each and every one a life-threatening situation.  So, yes, this is a FACT, not an opinion.  Oh, and BTW, in the following five decades I have had to have my heart restarted 7 more times. Chris Owens

Response:

Caowens writes:  Sure I can.  I had an asthma attack when I was 2 hours old.

My heart stopped. The doctors used adrenaline to restart it.  Hence, if it wasn’t for adrenaline, I wouldn’t have made it to my first birthday.  In point of fact, I wouldn’t have made it to my first 24 hours.  In the following year, I needed adrenaline 17 times . . . each and every one a life-threatening situation.  So, yes, this is a FACT, not an opinion.  Oh, and BTW, in the following five decades I have had to have my heart restarted 7 more times. Chris Owens

If your condition is as serious as all this, what kind of livestyle are you living?  Are you putting any consideration into what kinds of foods you eat? Or are you merely counting on your asthma meds to pull you out of tight situations?

Response:

We don’t have access yet to Buteyko’s scientific work, because I don’t think it has been translated yet. So you are saying that you have _no_ scientific evidence in support of Buteyko theory? Also, I find the ‘not translated’ comment odd.  English is the international language of science and anything that makes it into a reputable scientific journal should be readilly available.

Actually, to be fair, when I have done pub med searches, a significant number of the foreign article are not translated.

Response:

Sure I can.  I had an asthma attack when I was 2 hours old. My heart stopped. The doctors used adrenaline to restart it.  Hence, if it wasn’t for adrenaline, I wouldn’t have made it to my first birthday.  In point of fact, I wouldn’t have made it to my first 24 hours.  In the following year, I needed adrenaline 17 times . . . each and every one a life-threatening situation.  So, yes, this is a FACT, not an opinion.  Oh, and BTW, in the following five decades I have had to have my heart restarted 7 more times. If your condition is as serious as all this, what kind of livestyle are you living?  

A very healthy one, thank you. Are you putting any consideration into what kinds of foods you eat?

Well, yes.  To the point that nothing goes into my mouth that wasn’t prepared from scratch ingredients in this house. Or are you merely counting on your asthma meds to pull you out of tight situations?

I count on my asthma meds to pull me out of tight situations.  I also work very hard at making sure tight situations don’t occur.  However, I have a complex of autoimmune disorders — of which asthma is only one.  I fully expect to die of them someday.  In the meantime, I strive for the very best quality of life I can have . . . which includes being very careful about exposure to triggers. Unfortunately, NO ONE can possibly avoid all exposure, absent living in a bubble. Chris Owens

Response:

Actually, depending on the case — what particular adnormailty, be it illness, or birthing problem; and what in what era she was born — she could be right, that without adrenaline she would have died. She also CAN state that as fact if she KNOWS the facts. You are in no position to tell she is right or wrong. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Caowens writes:  I had my first attack when I was 2 hours old.  If not for the availability of adrenaline, I wouldn’t have lived past my first birthday. How can you prove your statement that you wouldn’t have lived past your first birthday if not for the adrenaline?  You can state your *opinion*, but you can’t state this as a _fact_.

Response:

Best thing to do is ignore the message, and use your "kill file" or "newsgroup filters". That way everyone who has already done this won’t see it either. In Outlook express use the "Newsgroup Filters" option on the "Tools" menu. I have been reading this group for information. You can make your own judgement as to who is contributing information, and who is just picking an argument. -SB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, depending on the case — what particular adnormailty, be it illness, or birthing problem; and what in what era she was born — she could be right, that without adrenaline she would have died. She also CAN state that as fact if she KNOWS the facts. You are in no position to tell she is right or wrong. Caowens writes:  I had my first attack when I was 2 hours old.  If not for the availability of adrenaline, I wouldn’t have lived past my first birthday. How can you prove your statement that you wouldn’t have lived past your first birthday if not for the adrenaline?  You can state your *opinion*, but you can’t state this as a _fact_.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1994: $73 billion spent on prescription drugs 1994: $76 billion spent on correcting the drugs side effects. Source: JAMA (the convicted conspirators) That’s $3 billion more spent on correcting the drugs than on the drugs themselves.                      Dr. Redd added there’s really no answer to the question of why asthma rates are so high right now. The cause of                      asthma itself is still something of a mystery — as is the question of why some people develop asthma and others don’t.                      developed countries. So there’s got to be some kind of environmental exposure, but exactly what that is really isn’t                      known." "…some kind of environmental exposure…" at least he admits they do not know.                      The spectrum of hypotheses includes diet and indoor air — and at this point, he said, nothing can really be rejected. Perhaps all you know it alls out there don’t really know it all. I sure don’t. Bruce Nilson

Hi Bruce What an outstanding posting you provided!  It’s time we had a little perspective. Bruce, why don’t you take a look at Buteyko’s theory on asthma?  It actually explains why  asthma is more prevalent in first world communities.  In case you have’nt heard,  Buteyko claims that asthma is caused by chronic overbreathing.  (If you don’t think overbreathing is bad for you, just try hyperventilating for a few minutes) We don’t have access yet to Buteyko’s scientific work, because I don’t think it has been translated yet.  But the conclusions are available. He found  a number of factors that promoted overbreathing.  Many of the first world vices fall into this category.  We tend to overeat and we get too little exercises.  The primitives have to run after the rabbit first before they can eat.  So they only eat when they’re hungry, and then they have to do physical work to get their food.  We just dial a pizza, even when we’re not hungry.  Overeating and lack of exercise are just two of the  factors that cause us to overbreathe.   It’s worth taking a look at our web site. Peter Kolb Biomedical Engineer FREE INFORMATION ON BUTEYKO’S CURE FOR ASTHMA PROVIDED BY GRATEFUL EX-ASTHMATICS:   http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm

Response:

Bruce, why don’t you take a look at Buteyko’s theory on asthma?  It actually explains why  asthma is more prevalent in first world communities.  

Well, no, it doesn’t; but do go on. In case you have’nt heard,  Buteyko claims that asthma is caused by chronic overbreathing.  

He also claims that this is the cause of cancer.  Belive that one, too? (If you don’t think overbreathing is bad for you, just try hyperventilating for a few minutes)

You hyperventilate, you pass out, you stop hyperventilating.  A well-known negative feedback mechanism.  However, there is a LONG walk between deliberate hyperventilation and the arguement that most people chronically hyperventilate. We don’t have access yet to Buteyko’s scientific work, because I don’t think it has been translated yet.  

Yes, we do; and, yes, it has.  Absolute lack of anything resembling real data collection.  NO science at all, past the hypothesis stage. He found  a number of factors that promoted overbreathing.  Many of the first world vices fall into this category.  We tend to overeat and we get too little exercises.  

Which cause hyperventilation exactly how? The primitives have to run after the rabbit first before they can eat.  

Well, no.  They set a snare. So they only eat when they’re hungry, and then they have to do physical work to get their food.  

No to both.  You might want to look at some of the ergonomic studies that have been done on HG societies — they actually do less work per calorie consumed than does an agricultural society.  Try again. Overeating and lack of exercise are just two of the  factors that cause us to overbreathe.  

Well, I get plenty of exercise, don’t overeat, don’t hyperventilate, and I still have asthma.  Where does this fit into your theory? BTW, the reason that there are fewer asthmatics in less technological societies is that they die — from asthma — at a very early age.  I had my first attack when I was 2 hours old.  If not for the availability of adrenaline, I wouldn’t have lived past my first birthday. Chris Owens

Response:

1994: $73 billion spent on prescription drugs 1994: $76 billion spent on correcting the drugs side effects. Source: JAMA (the convicted conspirators) That’s $3 billion more spent on correcting the drugs than on the drugs themselves. Adverse drug events (drug side effects) were responsible in 2.4 per 100 hospitable admissions. Source: JAMA (the convicted conspirators) I hope my asthma inhalers weren’t part of the 2.4%. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx At least the "authorities" are admitting they don’t have a real fix on asthma: NEW YORK, NY — May 7, 1998 — The number of asthma cases in the United States has doubled in the past two                       decades, from 6.8 million in 1980 to an estimate of more than 15 million today, according to an                       asthma expert from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. I read another article recently that undeveloped countries are not experiencing any rise in asthma cases.                       Dr. Redd spoke today at an American Medical Association media briefing on advances in treating and managing asthma.                       But Dr. Redd says asthma is on the rise throughout the population.                       "I think it is an issue of concern that the rates are higher in all age groups than they have been in the past," he said.                       "This isn’t a problem that is just occurring in young children."                       Dr. Redd added there’s really no answer to the question of why asthma rates are so high right now. The cause of                       asthma itself is still something of a mystery — as is the question of why some people develop asthma and others don’t. So the cause of asthma is a mystery.                       "There is certainly an inherited component but not everybody whose parents have asthma will develop asthma                       themselves, even though they’re at greater risk for it," he said.                       Dr. Redd explained it hasn’t been determined yet what exposures might cause a susceptible person to develop asthma.                       "I think a lot of people would hypothesise or suppose that the things that cause attacks in people who have asthma also                       have a role in the initial development of asthma. But I don’t know that we really know that," he said. "The genetic                       makeup of the population couldn’t have changed enough to see the increases in asthma that are being seen in many                       developed countries. So there’s got to be some kind of environmental exposure, but exactly what that is really isn’t                       known." "…some kind of environmental exposure…" at least he admits they do not know.                       The spectrum of hypotheses includes diet and indoor air — and at this point, he said, nothing can really be rejected. I find that some foods give me asthma and others make a little asthma much worse. Thank goodness nothing can be rejected.                       Some environmental factors, such as ozone levels, are beyond the individual’s control. But Dr. Redd said he believes                       most of the exposures are really within the home environment and indoors.                       While children can’t do much to affect their school environment, Dr. Redd said there’s a lot they and their families can                       do within the home to minimise asthma attacks. Asthma triggers such as house dust, mites, cockroaches, pet fur and                       tobacco smoke can be limited or eliminated. Perhaps all you know it alls out there don’t really know it all. I sure don’t. Bruce Nilson

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JAMA (the convicted conspirators) the AMA (a trade orginazation that has been convicted under the RICO Act and that conviction upheld all the way to the Supreme Court)

Would you mind showing the rest of us (at least the U.S. citizens), so we can stay informed, which Supreme Court or Appeals Court decision you refer to? U.S. Supreme Court Opinions      http://www.findlaw.com/casecode/supreme.html      http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/ U.S. Court of Appeals for the: First Circuit      http://www.law.emory.edu/1circuit/ Second Circuit      http://WWW.TouroLaw.edu/2ndCircuit/ Third Circuit      http://www.law.vill.edu/Fed-Ct/ca03.html Fourth Circuit      http://www.law.emory.edu/4circuit/ Fifth Circuit      http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/ Sixth Circuit      http://www.law.emory.edu/6circuit/ Seventh Circuit      http://www.kentlaw.edu/7circuit/ Eighth Circuit      http://www.wulaw.wustl.edu/8th.cir/ Ninth Circuit      http://www.law.vill.edu/Fed-Ct/ca09.html Tenth Circuit      http://www.law.emory.edu/10circuit/ Eleventh Circuit      http://www.law.emory.edu/11circuit/ District of Columbia Circuit      http://www.ll.georgetown.edu/Fed-Ct/cadc.html

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A Cleveland newspaper which analyzed 4,154 FDA files on drug testing using people says it found that 53% of the time patients weren’t fully told about the experimental nature of the drugs. I’m sooo glad the FDA is looking after the health of the american people. Hey Colin, did you see last in weeks NYTimes that 80% of approved drugs are made overseas and something like 40%-50% are adulterated in some manner. I may have inhaled some this morning. Cough cough…..choke…..gurrgle….aaaarrrggghhh!!! When the odd FDA inspector visits a few plants overseas and reports the not up to spec drug making (plants that would be closed in the US) to his higher ups at the FDA almost nothing is done to correct the situation. Can you say Big Business as usual. David Kessler, the former FDA head, said only 10% of drug side effects are reported which means 90% are unreported. Surely my inhalers are safe, just like yours. Anybody got any ideas on how to make the FDA better? Bruce Nilson

Response:

Hey Colin, did you see last in weeks NYTimes that 80% of approved drugs are made overseas and something like 40%-50% are adulterated in some manner.

The New York Times on the Web http://www.nytimes.com/ New York Times March 23, 1998 Concerns Raised by Unregulated Drug Sales on Web By STACY LU AMSTERDAM, Netherlands

how would you handle this situation?

Question:

I think your allergist needs to read the NIH report.

: :Readings :last winter were then 400-450, with very wild swings, but apparently :OK because they were near the expected range : :I think you should discuss these wild swings with your MD.  If they are more :than 20% I think that is unacceptable. : :Since adding Serevent, the swings are no longer a problem.  :) : :My regular doctor :had me double the Vanceril dose, and take my rescue inhaler every 4 :hours, and said if I had problems over the weekend to call the doctor :o n call.  His response Saturday evening was that if I could talk to :him on the phone there wasn’t really a problem, and I should be ok : :I think you should leave asthma management to a specialist.  General MD’s are :know if you were ok?  He didn’t see you, he couldn’t jump into your body!!!!! : :My allergist’s office is closed on Fridays.  I knew I was in trouble, :so I went to my primary doctor.  She is very helpful, and converses :with my allergist regularly.  The problem was with the idiot on call :that weekend. : :I also think you need to learn some relaxation techniques.  Guided imagery is :good.  It helps you to calm dowm and take slow deep breaths. I find that this :is essential to managing asthma. : :Already done – mostly to keep the migraines away, but it does help :most "minor" problems I have with asthma. : :Ok, next problem – went to my allergist Wednesday.  She did the :spirometry (sp?) again, and said basically that it seemed good, I :seemed to be doing just fine on these meds, did I have any questions :o r problems.  At which point I asked about all of the above stuff – :classes, exactly when I should increase the Flovent, and when to call :the office.  Her respose was "most asthmatics would love to have peak :flow readings like yours, so I really wouldn’t worry about it too :much.  Do you know when you start having trouble?"  (yes, anything :below about 470 I am out of breath if I walk more than 1 1/2 blocks) :"Well, Flovent is a pretty potent steroid, so we really don’t want to :get too much of it – I guess if you have numbers that low for 3 or 4 :days, then you could add another 2 puffs in the middle of the day for :about 2 weeks, but if you do, definitely call me so we can see what :the problem is."  She said that with the medicines I had, I shouldn’t :have to miss class if I got a cold, but if I did to let her know.  I’m :getting a bit frustrated.  What she seems to be saying doesn’t seem to :match all of the info that shows up on this newsgroup all the time. :Her office is the only allergist’s office within 100 miles, and to go :anywhere else, I’d have to miss class (which is what I’m trying to :avoid).  Arghh! : :janet : : : Barry Landy                        Computer Laboratory:+44 1223 334600 Head of Systems and Development    Direct line:        +44 1223 334713 University of Cambridge Computing Service Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG

Response:

Didn’t anyone tell you that the lack of wheezing sound could also mean that the air movement in the lungs is so restricked that it can’t make that "Wheezing" sound. Lack of that sound in my son is a BIG RED FLAG.

I am not nearly as concerned with when I am wheezing than I am when I am not wheezing and not feeling well.  My doctor HATES for me to come in and her not be able to hear a wheeze–that usually means I am in BIG trouble. Best of luck to you and your son. Angela Remember:  That which doesn’t break us makes us stronger.

Response:

I usually don’t wheeze You don’t have to wheeze to have asthma.  

Didn’t anyone tell you that the lack of wheezing sound could also mean that the air movement in the lungs is so restricked that it can’t make that "Wheezing" sound. Lack of that sound in my son is a BIG RED FLAG.

Response:

Readings last winter were then 400-450, with very wild swings, but apparently OK because they were near the expected range I think you should discuss these wild swings with your MD.  If they are more than 20% I think that is unacceptable.

Since adding Serevent, the swings are no longer a problem.  :) My regular doctor had me double the Vanceril dose, and take my rescue inhaler every 4 hours, and said if I had problems over the weekend to call the doctor on call.  His response Saturday evening was that if I could talk to him on the phone there wasn’t really a problem, and I should be ok I think you should leave asthma management to a specialist.  General MD’s are know if you were ok?  He didn’t see you, he couldn’t jump into your body!!!!!

My allergist’s office is closed on Fridays.  I knew I was in trouble, so I went to my primary doctor.  She is very helpful, and converses with my allergist regularly.  The problem was with the idiot on call that weekend. I also think you need to learn some relaxation techniques.  Guided imagery is good.  It helps you to calm dowm and take slow deep breaths. I find that this is essential to managing asthma.

Already done – mostly to keep the migraines away, but it does help most "minor" problems I have with asthma. Ok, next problem – went to my allergist Wednesday.  She did the spirometry (sp?) again, and said basically that it seemed good, I seemed to be doing just fine on these meds, did I have any questions or problems.  At which point I asked about all of the above stuff – classes, exactly when I should increase the Flovent, and when to call the office.  Her respose was "most asthmatics would love to have peak flow readings like yours, so I really wouldn’t worry about it too much.  Do you know when you start having trouble?"  (yes, anything below about 470 I am out of breath if I walk more than 1 1/2 blocks) "Well, Flovent is a pretty potent steroid, so we really don’t want to get too much of it – I guess if you have numbers that low for 3 or 4 days, then you could add another 2 puffs in the middle of the day for about 2 weeks, but if you do, definitely call me so we can see what the problem is."  She said that with the medicines I had, I shouldn’t have to miss class if I got a cold, but if I did to let her know.  I’m getting a bit frustrated.  What she seems to be saying doesn’t seem to match all of the info that shows up on this newsgroup all the time. Her office is the only allergist’s office within 100 miles, and to go anywhere else, I’d have to miss class (which is what I’m trying to avoid).  Arghh! janet

Response:

Readings last winter were then 400-450, with very wild swings, but apparently OK because they were near the expected range

I think you should discuss these wild swings with your MD.  If they are more than 20% I think that is unacceptable.My regular doctor had me double the Vanceril dose, and take my rescue inhaler every 4 hours, and said if I had problems over the weekend to call the doctor on call.  His response Saturday evening was that if I could talk to him on the phone there wasn’t really a problem, and I should be ok

I think you should leave asthma management to a specialist.  General MD’s are know if you were ok?  He didn’t see you, he couldn’t jump into your body!!!!! My lung function tests are also above normal for my age.  However, I am very sensitive to changes in my lungs.  I know immediately, without my PF meter, if there is a problem. had a lot of difficulties getting any doctors to listen to me.

Find one that will listen. There’s go to be one out there! I usually don’t wheeze

You don’t have to wheeze to have asthma.   I also think you need to learn some relaxation techniques.  Guided imagery is good.  It helps you to calm dowm and take slow deep breaths. I find that this is essential to managing asthma. Nice speaking with you Janet. Hope you  get in control. Sindee

Response:

Anyhow, it sure makes it more difficult to not have some of the typical symptoms, but I’ve read that it is possible to have asthma but not wheeze.

I have cough-variant asthma.  I don’t begin to wheeze until I am in serious trouble.

Response:

: :I think what you may need is a better asthma plan.  I think you should speak to :your physician about the problem.  Not just about the notes, but about haw to :better manage yourself if you come down with a cold.  If a cold always triggers :abn asthma attack then maybe at the first sign of a cold you should take a :"run" of oral steroids.  My question to you is:  what are the medications you :are on now?  Are they managing your asthma well between "colds?" And, of :course, what do you do for your asthma once you have a cold.   [much material snipped for brevity] Just to support other excellent posts:- As another sufferer from late onset asthma (last 5 years) I have learned a lot about self management in that period, and believe the following to be the case. There are three critical factors in good (self) management of asthma symptoms: 1) Patient’s understanding of his/her own symptoms, what triggers them, and what are danger situations. This is partly observation and partly reading – the NIH Asthma workshop report cited by others is a critically important resource 2) Medical assistance (Doctor, Nurse, Clinic) which is knowledgable and helpful, and which has the goal (again, as advised by the NIH report) of making the patient understand what is going on and learn to cope with his/her own symptoms 3) Putting the above into practice and not getting into "denial" ("It isnt really happening, so I wont do anything"). Item 1: Know your normal Peak Flow, and where your own danger levels are. Guideline is that below 80% of maximum is the first step, and 50% the second, but this is very personal. Item 2: Whenever PF is below the first level **and** whenever a known trigger is encountered double the "preventer" medicine (Beclamethasone or other corticosteroid). Cold or other infection is a standard trigger, so at the onset of cold/flu double up (and dont wait for the PF to tell you the bad news). Take reliever if necessary. Item 3. If the initial doubling does not prevent asthma symptoms, double up again and again, up to whatever maximum the doctor has advised. Meanwhile contact your doctor/clinic for advice and reassurance. Item 4. If the maximum level is reached and still no stability (as show by PF), medical assistance is necessary, and will probably involve oral steroids. Item 5. Once stable, maintain dosage until the trigger has gone and the PF shows consistently high readings; then slowly drop the dosage (the NIH report recommends going down in smaller steps that going up, but it is a matter of experience; I reduce by 25% steps, roughly); say 2 weeks for each level down provided the PF stays OK. Sticking to this type of regime should anticipate the stress placed on the lungs by the trigger, and also, by generating confidence (each well managed episode gives you more confidence in your ability to manage the next one) enables you to stay calm during the initial stages which in itself helps to reduce the asthma symptoms. Denial: It is all too easy (I know, I have done it!) to say "My PF is still high, this is not really a cold/allergen/whatever so I dont need to start doubling my dose" and to fail to get the dosage doubled early enough. This usually then means that the preventer dose needed to get the attack under control is eventually higher. Deny denial! Barry Landy                        Computer Laboratory:+44 1223 334600 University of Cambridge Computing Service Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG

Response:

Hi Janet, Just diagnosed asthmatic here.  For me too, they never hear wheezing, although last night in the middle of the night I think I did.  But it does cause problems in being taken seriously. After a severe attack yesterday where the peak flow got down to 350, maybe lower, the doc said I could call and come in for breathing treatments.  So today I felt like I did yesterday when it all started and wanted to get in before it got as bad as yesterday – because I was not able to function at all yesterday.   The doc came in and listened to my breathing and said, "You’re not very bad, normally we don’t give breathing treatments, but we will since you are here." Don’t know if he was using wheezing or what as a criteria, but I told him I hate to wait for it to get as bad as it did yesterday before I come in.  And it felt the same etc. He said he’s hoping the new inhaler will make this not happen anymore. Anyhow, it sure makes it more difficult to not have some of the typical symptoms, but I’ve read that it is possible to have asthma but not wheeze. Good luck, Kirloga – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So at least there is hope that I don’t have to go through this whole mess over and over again.  Because my lung fuction tests always come out higher than average, even when I’m not feeling too good, I have had a lot of difficulties getting any doctors to listen to me.  I usually don’t wheeze (the nurses in Student Health are well aware of this, since when I’m sick I stop by to have them listen, because I don’t know what it sounds like, and they haven’t heard any wheezing yet in over a year).  So I’m stuck.  Even at a peak flow of 400, feeling terrible, there is no wheezing, and often no apparent symptoms other than the fact that I’m always out of breath, and often cough uncontrolably.  That was part of why I missed so much class – I couldn’t stop coughing for more than about 2 minutes at a time, and it made walking to class, sitting though class, even thinking difficult. And I’m sure my classmates and professors would have been equally annoyed with me.  :) janet

Response:

I think what you may need is a better asthma plan.  I think you should speak to your physician about the problem.  Not just about the notes, but about haw to better manage yourself if you come down with a cold.  If a cold always triggers abn asthma attack then maybe at the first sign of a cold you should take a "run" of oral steroids.  My question to you is:  what are the medications you are on now?  Are they managing your asthma well between "colds?" And, of course, what do you do for your asthma once you have a cold. Last winter, when I was diagnosed, the doctor put me on 4 puffs of Vanceril twice a day (took an ER visit to get the diagnosis).  No peak flow meter or anything.  Switched doctors (primary and allergist) in January, got a peak flow meter, readings were around 420-460, expected for my height was 450, so new allergist did base line pulmonary function test and reduced Vanceril to 2 puffs twice a day.

Personal Best Peak Flow should be established by measuring Peak Flow under best conditions; middle of day after using Ventolin with asthma completely controlled–somtimes this requires a short regiment of prednisone. Typical peak flows based on height, age, sex are notariously inaccurate and the new asthma guidelines don’t even include the tables. Readings last winter were then 400-450, with very wild swings, but apparently OK because they were near the expected range.  I still was out of breath pretty often, but doctors both insisted there wasn’t a problem.

Well controlled asthma does not have wild swings. You shouldn’t be out of breath. Lasst summer, I was pretty stable at the low end of my green range on 2 puffs of Vanceril twice a day.  When I got sick last fall, my allergist switched it to 2 puffs of Flovent 110 twice a day.  Then when it got cold and I couldn’t walk 2 blocks without a serious bout of coughing, we added Serevent, 2 puffs twice a day.

Flovent 110 and Serevent are good meds. 4pf/day of Flovent 110 is a Moderate Dose. Your previous use of Vanceril 4pf/day is a very Low Dose. Serevent is good at controlling nocturnal and exercise symptoms.  All that medicine even though my last pulmonary function test (with breathing treatment in between 2 sets of readings) said I might possibly have mild asthma (just barely enough change for the doctor to say I have asthma).  When it was warm last week, my peak flow readings were consistently between 580 and 620.  This week it is cold, and my readings are 520-550.  When I got sick last semester my readings were 390-450, with lowest readings at night, lots of couging, and very little relief from my rescue inhaler (my mother has voiced the opinion that I should have gone the ER several of those nights).

So your Personal Best Peak Flow appears to be 620. It sounds like cough variant asthma; coughing instead of wheezing. If the asthma diagnosis is really in doubt, it could be repeated or a more definitive test administered–the methacholine challenge test. Since asthma meds like inhaled steroids seem to help your asthma this tends to confirm the asthma diagnosis. See: http://www.ama-assn.org/special/asthma/library/scan/interp.htm Interpretation of Positive Results of a Methacholine Inhalation Challenge and 1 Week of Inhaled Bronchodilator use in Diagnosing and Treating Cough-Variant Asthma Ironically, I already had an appointment scheduled with my allergist for tomorrow for a pulmonary function test.  So I can discuss all off this stuff with her then. Last semeter was the first really bad cold I’d had since being diagnosed with asthma.  I’d had the sniffles a few times, a couple of bouts of coughing, but nothing like that…..my peak flow dropped from 560 one night (a Thursday) to 490 the next morning, and was 470 when I came home for lunch and decided to call my doctor.  My regular doctor had me double the Vanceril dose, and take my rescue inhaler every 4 hours, and said if I had problems over the weekend to call the doctor on call.  His response Saturday evening was that if I could talk to him on the phone there wasn’t really a problem, and I should be ok until Monday without further treatment.  

One of the ways used to diagnose severity of asthma is how you talk. Talking in sentences indicates Mild asthma. Talking in phrases indicates Moderate asthma. Talking in words indicates Severe asthma. Monday morning I called the allergist’s office when they opened (I was actually feeling worse by then.)  She saw me that morning, decided to switch inhalers, and told me to call back if I had any problems.  Two days later, she put me on antibiotics for bronchitis.  It was the next weekend before I started really feeling better. Asthma is very manageable even if you come down with a cold there is no reason to miss so much school!  I was a moderately severe asthmatic before I was able to get it under control.  Now even if I have a cold, I am still able to teach.

Janet, the key here may to get the asthma under control using a Peak Flow Meter to monitor lung function and a doctor approved Action Plan to increase meds when Peak Flow drops below 80% of Personal Best; in your case appears to be .8 x 560 = 448. The usual Action Plan is to double inhaled steroids (Flovent 110) and use your Ventolin as needed. Most asthmatics can cope with asthma in the yellow zone (50-80% of personal best). Symptoms also need to be taken into account in the Action Plan. Its best if you find one asthma doctor who is familiar with your case and stay with him/her. When you use multiple doctors/nurses it can get too confusing. However if Peak Flow drops below 50% of PB it may be time to go to ER after calling doctor. Even below 50% PB home management is possible, depending on patient. This may require doubling the inhaled steroids again or/and starting a short course of prednisone. Most of the things they do in urgent care or ER can be done at home, unless its a life-threatening situation. See Action Plan links: ACTION PLAN http://www.arbon.com/njc/APAMF.htm Action Plan to Manage Asthma http://www.arbon.com/njc/APFMF.htm ADULT PEAK FLOW MONITORING http://www.ama-assn.org/special/asthma/treatmnt/updates/patient.htm     Patient Asthma Action Plans http://www.pedipress.com/articles/htp/htpadpf.html PEAK FLOW BASED  HOME TREATMENT PLAN I went up to Lake Tahoe, 6700 ft elevation and cold, last weekend. My Peak Flow dropped to 55% PB the nite I arrived; so I jacked up my dose of Vanceril Double Strength. (I made the mistake of not monitoring my peak flow on the way up, we took the long way thru 3 bird refuges, over Donner Summit with chain control on and thru Nevada around Lake Tahoe & back to Calif, took 12 hours.) I went snowshoeing for 30 min the next day and an hour the day after that, but decided not to push it as my peak flow was running 75% of personal best–decided to stay near the warm cabin rather than venturing out too far into the wild. Came back Mon from the Heavenly Valley area (where Sonny Bono had his fatal ski accident) I have had a virus this past week and have increased the Vanceril DS to control the symptoms. Peak flows around 85-90%PB Ellis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So at least there is hope that I don’t have to go through this whole mess over and over again.  Because my lung fuction tests always come out higher than average, even when I’m not feeling too good, I have had a lot of difficulties getting any doctors to listen to me.  I usually don’t wheeze (the nurses in Student Health are well aware of this, since when I’m sick I stop by to have them listen, because I don’t know what it sounds like, and they haven’t heard any wheezing yet in over a year).  So I’m stuck.  Even at a peak flow of 400, feeling terrible, there is no wheezing, and often no apparent symptoms other than the fact that I’m always out of breath, and often cough uncontrolably.  That was part of why I missed so much class – I couldn’t stop coughing for more than about 2 minutes at a time, and it made walking to class, sitting though class, even thinking difficult. And I’m sure my classmates and professors would have been equally annoyed with me.  :) janet

Response:

Do I go talk to my professors ahead of time (like in the next couple of weeks), or do I wait until I get sick, and then try to bail myself out?  Winter is always the worst for me because I’m very sensitive to the cold air.  Do I tak to my doctor and explain that if I get sick, at least one of my professors is going to want a note?  I understand that he’s trying to teach us to be professional, but most places I’ve done internships have sick days, and if you call in and explain what’s going on, there isn’t a problem, so this seems a bit overboard. Suggestions, anyone? janet

As a former college professor, I would strongly advise you to speak with your professors ahead of time. In fact, the best time would be between registering for the class and the first class meeting. You   might take along a "to whom it might concern" letter from your doctor explaining the situation. During my college teaching years, I had a number of students with various health problems that needed accommondation, and it was always possible to work out something with them. Alternatively — or in addition — you might speak with the adacemic dean and perhaps ask to have a note placed in your student record. Good luck

Response:

First of all. I understand where your professors are coming from, since I am one.  However, I am also an asthmatic and I understand your concern about missing your classes. I think what you may need is a better asthma plan.  I think you should speak to your physician about the problem.  Not just about the notes, but about haw to better manage yourself if you come down with a cold.  If a cold always triggers abn asthma attack then maybe at the first sign of a cold you should take a "run" of oral steroids.  My question to you is:  what are the medications you are on now?  Are they managing your asthma well between "colds?" And, of course, what do you do for your asthma once you have a cold.   Asthma is very manageable even if you come down with a cold there is no reason to miss so much school!  I was a moderately severe asthmatic before I was able to get it under control.  Now even if I have a cold, I am still able to teach.

Response:

I think what you may need is a better asthma plan.  I think you should speak to your physician about the problem.  Not just about the notes, but about haw to better manage yourself if you come down with a cold.  If a cold always triggers abn asthma attack then maybe at the first sign of a cold you should take a "run" of oral steroids.  My question to you is:  what are the medications you are on now?  Are they managing your asthma well between "colds?" And, of course, what do you do for your asthma once you have a cold.  

Last winter, when I was diagnosed, the doctor put me on 4 puffs of Vanceril twice a day (took an ER visit to get the diagnosis).  No peak flow meter or anything.  Switched doctors (primary and allergist) in January, got a peak flow meter, readings were around 420-460, expected for my height was 450, so new allergist did base line pulmonary function test and reduced Vanceril to 2 puffs twice a day.  Readings last winter were then 400-450, with very wild swings, but apparently OK because they were near the expected range.  I still was out of breath pretty often, but doctors both insisted there wasn’t a problem. Lasst summer, I was pretty stable at the low end of my green range on 2 puffs of Vanceril twice a day.  When I got sick last fall, my allergist switched it to 2 puffs of Flovent 110 twice a day.  Then when it got cold and I couldn’t walk 2 blocks without a serious bout of coughing, we added Serevent, 2 puffs twice a day.  All that medicine even though my last pulmonary function test (with breathing treatment in between 2 sets of readings) said I might possibly have mild asthma (just barely enough change for the doctor to say I have asthma).  When it was warm last week, my peak flow readings were consistently between 580 and 620.  This week it is cold, and my readings are 520-550.  When I got sick last semester my readings were 390-450, with lowest readings at night, lots of couging, and very little relief from my rescue inhaler (my mother has voiced the opinion that I should have gone the ER several of those nights). Ironically, I already had an appointment scheduled with my allergist for tomorrow for a pulmonary function test.  So I can discuss all off this stuff with her then. Last semeter was the first really bad cold I’d had since being diagnosed with asthma.  I’d had the sniffles a few times, a couple of bouts of coughing, but nothing like that…..my peak flow dropped from 560 one night (a Thursday) to 490 the next morning, and was 470 when I came home for lunch and decided to call my doctor.  My regular doctor had me double the Vanceril dose, and take my rescue inhaler every 4 hours, and said if I had problems over the weekend to call the doctor on call.  His response Saturday evening was that if I could talk to him on the phone there wasn’t really a problem, and I should be ok until Monday without further treatment.  Monday morning I called the allergist’s office when they opened (I was actually feeling worse by then.)  She saw me that morning, decided to switch inhalers, and told me to call back if I had any problems.  Two days later, she put me on antibiotics for bronchitis.  It was the next weekend before I started really feeling better. Asthma is very manageable even if you come down with a cold there is no reason to miss so much school!  I was a moderately severe asthmatic before I was able to get it under control.  Now even if I have a cold, I am still able to teach.

So at least there is hope that I don’t have to go through this whole mess over and over again.  Because my lung fuction tests always come out higher than average, even when I’m not feeling too good, I have had a lot of difficulties getting any doctors to listen to me.  I usually don’t wheeze (the nurses in Student Health are well aware of this, since when I’m sick I stop by to have them listen, because I don’t know what it sounds like, and they haven’t heard any wheezing yet in over a year).  So I’m stuck.  Even at a peak flow of 400, feeling terrible, there is no wheezing, and often no apparent symptoms other than the fact that I’m always out of breath, and often cough uncontrolably.  That was part of why I missed so much class – I couldn’t stop coughing for more than about 2 minutes at a time, and it made walking to class, sitting though class, even thinking difficult. And I’m sure my classmates and professors would have been equally annoyed with me.  :) janet

Response:

coughing long enough to get more than a few hours sleep at a time.  If that happens again, I’m going to have a serious problem this semester.

If you can, try not to worry about what might happen as that will may make the situation worse.  Most things your worry about don’t happen anyway.  A better approach is to take the necessary steps to prevent the problems academically then rest easy knowing you did everything you could. Do I go talk to my professors ahead of time (like in the next couple of weeks), or do I wait until I get sick, and then try to bail myself

I am a graduate student myself so my first suggestion is if you can approach your professor, explain your circumstances and see if it may be possible to make alternate arrangements in the event you become ill.  Most professors can be quite understanding especially if they are aware that you have a medical problem and are not just trying to find a way out of your academic obligations.  If you feel that you cannot talk to the professor about this talk to the head of the department or someone else who may be able to approach your professor on your behalf (ie. academic counsellor).   Perhaps your doctor could provide you with a written statement to be kept with your academic file to prevent problems in the future. At any rate, you should have some type of documentation should be attached to your academic record since you have an ongoing medical problem.  If you cannot arrange something suitable between yourself and your professor is it possible to either find another professor who is teaching the same course or find an alternative course? Hope this helps. — Janine

Response:

Ok.    I have one class where we have an exam every other week, and if you miss an exam you must write a paper explaining, in detail, why you missed the exam. The professor has already stated that if your excuse is that you are sick, you must have a letter from your doctor verifying that you were sick enough to skip class.  Then he gets to decide whether to let you make up the test or not.  Just from my first three classes, I have a test of some sort every week.

Ouch!…they’re keeping you on your toes The last time I got sick, I missed between 2 and 4 classes out of 6 for each class I had over a 2 week period.  I had a cold, and bronchitis, which cause an asthma flare-up.  My peak flows hovered around 70% for most of that 2 week period, and I couldn’t stop coughing long enough to get more than a few hours sleep at a time.  If that happens again, I’m going to have a serious problem this semester.

that happened to me in my second year at College Do I go talk to my professors ahead of time (like in the next couple of weeks), or do I wait until I get sick, and then try to bail myself out?  Winter is always the worst for me because I’m very sensitive to the cold air.  Do I tak to my doctor and explain that if I get sick, at least one of my professors is going to want a note?  I understand that he’s trying to teach us to be professional, but most places I’ve done internships have sick days, and if you call in and explain what’s going on, there isn’t a problem, so this seems a bit overboard. Suggestions, anyone? janet

stage1…no one can complain about good preparation…if there’s a health centre on campus ask them for advice…check with your academic departments who you need to inform about your asthma…best to do stuff in advance…because stage2…if you’ve prepared the ground well the chances of you having problems are decreased because you’ll feel less stressed about it good luck eric

Response:

Ok.  My classes just started today, I’ve been to 3 of 5 classes, and already, I think I’m detecting a potential problem.  I have one class where we have an exam every other week, and if you miss an exam you must write a paper explaining, in detail, why you missed the exam. The professor has already stated that if your excuse is that you are sick, you must have a letter from your doctor verifying that you were sick enough to skip class.  Then he gets to decide whether to let you make up the test or not.  Just from my first three classes, I have a test of some sort every week. The last time I got sick, I missed between 2 and 4 classes out of 6 for each class I had over a 2 week period.  I had a cold, and bronchitis, which cause an asthma flare-up.  My peak flows hovered around 70% for most of that 2 week period, and I couldn’t stop coughing long enough to get more than a few hours sleep at a time.  If that happens again, I’m going to have a serious problem this semester. Do I go talk to my professors ahead of time (like in the next couple of weeks), or do I wait until I get sick, and then try to bail myself out?  Winter is always the worst for me because I’m very sensitive to the cold air.  Do I tak to my doctor and explain that if I get sick, at least one of my professors is going to want a note?  I understand that he’s trying to teach us to be professional, but most places I’ve done internships have sick days, and if you call in and explain what’s going on, there isn’t a problem, so this seems a bit overboard. Suggestions, anyone? janet

Response:

Infuenza

Question:

Bill, I fully agree that it is not the job of the group to prove anything; I simply have trouble with a claim by an educated and especially a science-based person that if something hasn’t been explained to their satisfaction, or doesn’t conform to current knowledge, it is therefore automatically garbage.

Since I am the person who described a certian unproven medical treatment as ‘garbage’ let me giv you a description of what I consider ‘garbage’. Any medical treatment that has not been found to be ’safe and effective’ per scientific standards that is being promoted commercially.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill, your argument supports only a conclusion of "I have not seen an explanation that satisfies me," and variations thereof. The jump to the next step, to the conclusion you reach, is not supported by data. It’s as unscientific as the claims you challenge! Steve Steve,   You’ll probably be happy to know someone has contacted me privately, Peter Kolb, and he seems to have a medical background and is explaining the technique to me and he is able to answer medical questions.  He is, to my delight, able to speak as a medical professional.   You must remember that as a medical professional, I will yell, at the top of my lungs, GARBAGE, when someone comes to this group offering a cure if they cannot provide medical explanation.  You cannot offer this explanation, but Peter seems to be able to.  I will discuss this with him and report my views on the subject to this newsgroup.  You also must agree that it is not the group that must prove something works, but the researchers that are presenting it.   No reply is necessary. bill

Bill, I fully agree that it is not the job of the group to prove anything; I simply have trouble with a claim by an educated and especially a science-based person that if something hasn’t been explained to their satisfaction, or doesn’t conform to current knowledge, it is therefore automatically garbage. And,I’m glad Peter contacted you. Steve.

Response:

Bill, your argument supports only a conclusion of "I have not seen an explanation that satisfies me," and variations thereof. The jump to the next step, to the conclusion you reach, is not supported by data. It’s as unscientific as the claims you challenge! Steve

Steve,    You’ll probably be happy to know someone has contacted me privately, Peter Kolb, and he seems to have a medical background and is explaining the technique to me and he is able to answer medical questions.  He is, to my delight, able to speak as a medical professional.    You must remember that as a medical professional, I will yell, at the top of my lungs, GARBAGE, when someone comes to this group offering a cure if they cannot provide medical explanation.  You cannot offer this explanation, but Peter seems to be able to.  I will discuss this with him and report my views on the subject to this newsgroup.  You also must agree that it is not the group that must prove something works, but the researchers that are presenting it.    No reply is necessary. bill

Response:

In the meantime, I’m just delighted at the perhaps-coincidence that my daughter’s asthma symptoms disappeared when she tried the Buteyko exercises, as predicted by the Buteyko folk; at the perhaps-coincidence that her need for medication to control her asthma reduced, as predicted by the Buteyko folk and confirmed by her doctor; and the perhaps-coincidence that so many, many others have found themselves experiencing the same happy perhaps-coincidence when they followed the path suggested by the Buteyko folk. Steve

I also experienced the happy perhaps-coincidence after trying the slow breathing exercises.  Hmmmm.

Response:

I understand that you don’t buy-in to it, yourself; not surprisingly, it seems the only people who do buy-in are the ones who have tried it themselves and benefited, or seen others who have. But what I don’t understand … why do you feel it’s necessary to slag it? Why does "I don’t buy into it" have to become "it’s garbage"?   The problem is that this ‘buy-in’ concept is what drives most quack medicine in general.  The above paragraph could apply to any quack cure from ozone generators to astrological cures and ‘energy field balancing’.

Oddly enough (you might feel), I agree on some of this. We’re mainstream medicine people almost to the core, and I was recently horrified when I read a publication from a health store that included ads and claims for a myriad alternative medicine approaches. I was amused to note that my initial reaction to them was apparently identical to the reaction of some folks here to Buteyko.   The point I wanted to provoke,though,was that whether you phrase it as I deliberately did "I don’t buy-in to this" or the more specific "this makes no sense to me" or the more informed "this doesn’t conform to the standard body of knowledge in which I am an expert" … to someone educated in science, these arguments should not lead automatically to the conclusion "therefore this is garbage."   Else, as I point out to Bill elsewhere, the theory behind ulcers that is now accepted, would also be "garbage" because for near enough 2 decades the theory did not conform to the well-established body of knowledge, and there was not enough data to validate the theory because the originator couldn’t find a way to get meaningful trials conducted. Anyone advocating the scientific method should surely be able to distinguish between lack of validation to a certain standard (eg because trials haven’t been conducted), and data-supported invalidation. The difference is very important. There is an established medhodoligy to developing a medical treatment. First you develop the theory, then you validate the theory.  Then comes testing to demonstrate that the method is both safe and effective.  Only after this has been done can you ethically start promoting the ‘cure’.

I am familiar with the methodology and of course am gratified it exists. I hope for the sake of those who remain on asthma medication that the process continues to be strictly applied. I am just glad that subsequent to changing her breathing slightly as advocated by the Buteyko folk, and with the approval of her asthma specialist, my daughter no longer needs the asthma drugs that are tested according to this methodology. I base my judgement of Buteyko on the life-transformation impact it’s had on my child, when she did shallow breathing for real, day after day, week after week, month after month. That’s my basis for believing it has some validity – a flesh and blood, real-life transformation, witnessed by family, friends and her doctors. What is your basis for declaring with such confidence that it’s "garbage"? Most of us find a sample set of 1 to be inadequate when used as ‘proof’.  The problem is that you really have no idea what caused your daughters improvment.  The improvement may be due to reason you are unaware of, and are simply coincinencal (sp?) with her use of Buteyko. This is why antecodal evidence is generally discarded – you have no real way of assuring that an effect was due to a particular cause.

I agree, with a caveat; there are a heck of a lot of sample sizes of 1 making the same claim, and *sometimes* when there is a sufficiently large body of correlation there is a case for saying "there might be something here, let’s dig deeper." In our (my family’s) opinion, the anecdotal data supplied by people we corresponded with, backed up by comments we read and heard from doctors whose patients went through Buteyko, and reinforced by the comments of others (recently eg the acting head of the Australian Asthma Foundation),  … the anecdotal data from my daughter and many others was and is strong enough to indicate at least "there’s something going on here."  I really hope that the trials become a reality. In the meantime, I’m just delighted at the perhaps-coincidence that my daughter’s asthma symptoms disappeared when she tried the Buteyko exercises, as predicted by the Buteyko folk; at the perhaps-coincidence that her need for medication to control her asthma reduced, as predicted by the Buteyko folk and confirmed by her doctor; and the perhaps-coincidence that so many, many others have found themselves experiencing the same happy perhaps-coincidence when they followed the path suggested by the Buteyko folk. Steve

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I base my judgement of Buteyko on the life-transformation impact it’s had on my child, when she did shallow breathing for real, day after day, week after week, month after month. That’s my basis for believing it has some validity – a flesh and blood, real-life transformation, witnessed by family, friends and her doctors. What is your basis for declaring with such confidence that it’s "garbage"? The second to the last sentence just caught my eye as I was sending my last response. I have a great idea.  You said this was witnessed by her doctors.  I assume that one of them was a pulmonologist? Asthma specialist?  Ok here is my idea… tell the doctor you know a registered respiratory therapist with a BS in cardiopulmonary sciences.  This therapist works in the ER and with pediatrics 4 days a week.  This therapist is very curious to learn the "shallow breathing thing", because he wants to know every kind of treatment modality to better serve his patients.  Ask the doctor to write down the mechanism of action and any H&P ( history and physical) info you would feel comfortable letting me know (this is private info) and then you could email it to me directly.  The doctor would surely do this, because this is sharing of treatment modality and is common practice among the medical communiity.  Then maybe I will understand this whole thing better. bill

Until the final meeting, our daughter’s asthma specialist had heard little more than that my daughter was trying a breathing technique that was claimed to have helped asthmatics to deal better with attacks and to have helped asthmatics reduce symptoms of asthma; that it called for exercises of mild shallow breathing, regularly; and that my daughter would not deviate in any way from the program of medication he had prescribed for her.  With the explicit understanding that we would not change any medication without his permission, he agreed to our suggestion that she try it and agreed to monitor her throughout the process. After weeks symptom-free despite being in circumstances that always previously triggered attacks, he suggested we try reducing Serevent, VERY gently because a pre-Buteyko attempt had caused havoc. We did. After several more weeks symptom free and Serevent free, he suggested we try reducing Pulmicort. Cautiously, again. We did. Not only symptom free, but by now her overall health and fitness had noticeably improved and was commented on by coaches, friends, dance instructors et al. At the conclusion of my last meeting with the doctor and some discussion of Buteyko, he stated his intention to look further into Buteyko, based on the clear and in his words "remarkable" change he saw in her and her history of treatment, which did not point to the results she demonstrated.   Perhaps he will, perhaps he won’t. When we next see him, I’ll explain our discussion and pass your request along. Then it’s his call. Steve

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I base my judgement of Buteyko on the life-transformation impact it’s had on my child, when she did shallow breathing for real, day after day, week after week, month after month. That’s my basis for believing it has some validity – a flesh and blood, real-life transformation, witnessed by family, friends and her doctors. What is your basis for declaring with such confidence that it’s "garbage"? Most of us find a sample set of 1 to be inadequate when used as ‘proof’.  The problem is that you really have no idea what caused your daughters improvment.  The improvement may be due to reason you are unaware of, and are simply coincinencal (sp?) with her use of Buteyko. This is why antecodal evidence is generally discarded – you have no real way of assuring that an effect was due to a particular cause. ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers. First of all, I am OVERJOYED that your little girl is doing so well.  I REALLY hate seeing the kids suffer. My basis for calling it garbage?  Noone, not one single person has given me one iota of an explanation of the physiological mechanism of action of this shallow breathing thing.  The people who speak on this subject cannot even use medical terms to descibe the physiological changes that occur.  As Colin has stated, a sample group of 1 or even 20 is not proof.  My medical knowledge is based on a sample of thousands!  Colin is scientific in nature, so am I.  But as I said before, I am not evan asking for proof, I am not asking for a series of studies (like would be customary before a new treatment modality was to be implemented)…All I asked for was a explanation of the mechanism of action.  That certainly would not be hard to provide if this treatment was ligitamate.  Once again, I am so happy for your child, but as Colin said, you have absolutely no idea what changed her "being able to walk the mall and smell perfume"  Which is a good thing, I guess, but hardly something that would qualify as a clinical trial.   Hence…garbage. bill

I appreciate your taking the time to explain. You raise a number of issues I want to respond to more fully. Some of my responses are "dry" and the whole thing is loooong … so I’ll e-mail it and keep the posting here shorter. My basic point is that according to the scientific precepts I was taught, and which I thought you were encouraging as a basis for discussion, your argument (on which I have no comment) doesn’t support your conclusion. It’s an emotional conclusion, which is fine if you want to argue at that level; I’m comfortable with it! However, if you want to argue according to the discipline you’ve been encouraging then I was taught it’s important to differentiate between a theory with established validity, a theory the validity of which has been shot down, and a theory the validity of which has been neither shot down nor established; and, MOST importantly, I was taught that the ONLY test of validity is the confirmation of existence (or otherwise) of predicted effects. Validity is absolutely NOT a function of conformity to the standard body of knowledge, or conformity to a person’s knowledge, no matter his education. If this was not so, the now-accepted theory behind ulcers was and therefore remains "garbage" because for 2 decades it contradicted the standard body of knowledge, which I suspect could point to the support of a sample size of hundreds of thousands. That it is not garbage is now clear. Therefore it never was "garbage." I can understand the ignorant using such a label, but not the educated. Bill, your argument supports only a conclusion of "I have not seen an explanation that satisfies me," and variations thereof. The jump to the next step, to the conclusion you reach, is not supported by data. It’s as unscientific as the claims you challenge! Steve

Response:

Colin, you mean to tell me that you were not cured by "shallow breathing" and "ozone generators" and oh, what other garbage have we been reading here? :) Glad to hear you getting better. bill

Bill, the shallow breathing "garbage" as you call it is the single best thing that’s happened to my family, health-wise, in 5 years, and it’s transformed my kid’s life (example: this is the first Christmas in memory she’s been able to shop in a mall without getting sick from the fragrances and suffering attacks; she was always having to sit outside and recover, and always tried to avoid the department stores, but she’d still get "hit").   I understand that you don’t buy-in to it, yourself; not surprisingly, it seems the only people who do buy-in are the ones who have tried it themselves and benefited, or seen others who have. But what I don’t understand … why do you feel it’s necessary to slag it? Why does "I don’t buy into it" have to become "it’s garbage"?   I base my judgement of Buteyko on the life-transformation impact it’s had on my child, when she did shallow breathing for real, day after day, week after week, month after month. That’s my basis for believing it has some validity – a flesh and blood, real-life transformation, witnessed by family, friends and her doctors. What is your basis for declaring with such confidence that it’s "garbage"? Steve

Response:

I understand that you don’t buy-in to it, yourself; not surprisingly, it seems the only people who do buy-in are the ones who have tried it themselves and benefited, or seen others who have. But what I don’t understand … why do you feel it’s necessary to slag it? Why does "I don’t buy into it" have to become "it’s garbage"?  

The problem is that this ‘buy-in’ concept is what drives most quack medicine in general.  The above paragraph could apply to any quack cure from ozone generators to astrological cures and ‘energy field balancing’. There is an established medhodoligy to developing a medical treatment. First you develop the theory, then you validate the theory.  Then comes testing to demonstrate that the method is both safe and effective.  Only after this has been done can you ethically start promoting the ‘cure’. I base my judgement of Buteyko on the life-transformation impact it’s had on my child, when she did shallow breathing for real, day after day, week after week, month after month. That’s my basis for believing it has some validity – a flesh and blood, real-life transformation, witnessed by family, friends and her doctors. What is your basis for declaring with such confidence that it’s "garbage"?

Most of us find a sample set of 1 to be inadequate when used as ‘proof’.  The problem is that you really have no idea what caused your daughters improvment.  The improvement may be due to reason you are unaware of, and are simply coincinencal (sp?) with her use of Buteyko. This is why antecodal evidence is generally discarded – you have no real way of assuring that an effect was due to a particular cause. ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The problem was not my action plan failing but me trying to ‘tough it out’.  I’d doubled my inhaled meds as per plan, but underestimated just how bad the flu was. My peak flows had been hovering at around 75% until Friday when they dropped to less than 50%.  Thats when I went to the doctor (whose office is 1/2 a block away).  In addition to the albuterol I was given steroid and antibiotic injections. The good news is that the fever seems to have cleared up my sinuses (which are usually completely clogged this time of year). ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers.

Colin, you mean to tell me that you were not cured by "shallow breathing" and "ozone generators" and oh, what other garbage have we been reading here? :) Glad to hear you getting better. bill

Response:

Actually, that’s to everybody. Colin, sorry to hear about your condition….here’s to a speedy recovery (I like whiskey…’ching’)! And especially during the holidays (‘ching’). Seriously, the flu is nothing to fool with. Broad spectrum anti biotics are about as much fun as prednisone… and you’ll be on both. Take care, colin…jimi

Response:

Well, I just spent all afternoon at the doctor’s office (getting nebulized three times).  Apparently the strain of the flu that is going around is different from the one this year’s shots were set up for. Don’t make the mistake I made – if you even suspect you may be getting the flu, see your doctor ASAP.  I waited and came close to getting put in the hospital (and my Dr. is very unhappy with me).

Colin, Can you give us some details? Did your Action Plan fail? Did Peak Flow drop below 50%? Did the doc give you prednisone in addition to the nebulized albuterol? Did you follow the Protocol in the Expert Panel Report 2, Fig 3-8. Management of Asthma Exacerbations: Home Treatment? Actually I’m a little concerned as I’m going x-country skiing at Lake Tahoe after the holidays; but I haven’t been up in 4 years. So the cold air, elevation, and exercise could be a trigger. Its one thing managing asthma at home, and something else handling it away from home. Well I guess I can always go to the ER in South Lake Tahoe. Maybe I’ll just snowshoe near the cabin. I’m not used to cold air as the temps seldom drop below freezing here on the coast. Get well Colin, Ellis

Response:

Colin, Can you give us some details? Did your Action Plan fail? Did Peak Flow drop below 50%? Did the doc give you prednisone in addition to the nebulized albuterol?

The problem was not my action plan failing but me trying to ‘tough it out’.  I’d doubled my inhaled meds as per plan, but underestimated just how bad the flu was. My peak flows had been hovering at around 75% until Friday when they dropped to less than 50%.  Thats when I went to the doctor (whose office is 1/2 a block away).  In addition to the albuterol I was given steroid and antibiotic injections.   The good news is that the fever seems to have cleared up my sinuses (which are usually completely clogged this time of year). ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Colin, Can you give us some details? Did your Action Plan fail? Did Peak Flow drop below 50%? Did the doc give you prednisone in addition to the nebulized albuterol? The problem was not my action plan failing but me trying to ‘tough it out’.  I’d doubled my inhaled meds as per plan, but underestimated just how bad the flu was. My peak flows had been hovering at around 75% until Friday when they dropped to less than 50%.  Thats when I went to the doctor (whose office is 1/2 a block away).  In addition to the albuterol I was given steroid and antibiotic injections.  

 I just spent four days in hospital after a virus that I had already had for nearly a week suddenly became nasty and infected the bases of my lungs. I could not stop coughing, which as we know sure makes it easy to breathe properly. I was *really* scared and they stuck me with IV Pred ( shriek :( ) and four hourly nebs of Atrovent/Ventolin. Boy after 24 hours of that I was in ‘jitter city’ I have had a flu shot and pnuemovax but this virus really had teeth. Just starting to be able to move about again. Phew!! Remove the spam from address if replying by email

Response:

Well, I just spent all afternoon at the doctor’s office (getting nebulized three times).  Apparently the strain of the flu that is going around is different from the one this year’s shots were set up for. Don’t make the mistake I made – if you even suspect you may be getting the flu, see your doctor ASAP.  I waited and came close to getting put in the hospital (and my Dr. is very unhappy with me). ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers.

Response:

Excercise Indused Asthma

Question:

No apology needed, Mark. Thanks, as always, for your input! -Rolf — Call me IronMac …                         … I tri …                                          … I prefer Macintosh! IMC ‘94 – 14:06:47   IMC ‘95 – 11:58:35    IMC ‘97 – 10:45:00

Response:

Well I was interested in what you had to say.  I’m using Abuterol and Intal and not getting much relief any longer.  Especially now that it is hot.  Any suggestions?  I can go slower and I’m o.k., but that is not the object of the game…you know?

Response:

Dr. Jenkins,         May I respectfully point out that you are merely talking about asthma in the sense the word is used in any encylopedia or popular book on the subject, (snip) No. I am talking about asthma as an illness that affects people. I have never treated a book with asthma.

Dr. Jenkins, this is  fair enough, if I understand you correctly, but what an ill person believes may often be of crucial importance.  If someone’s struggling with IEA, knowing that breathing discipline and sort of "throttling back" is much better than trying to get the lungs clear again by violent hyperventilation may be very valuable.  Modern research points out that … <snip P.S.Clarke: J of Asthma 19(4) 249-251 (1982) and Hibbert et al. Brit. J. of Psychiatry (1988), 153, 687-689. Modern? How about something from this decade? There’s a great deal that has come out in the past 10 years.

If you could give me references to the effect that the specific respiratory drive of an asthmatic does in fact come from bronchoconstriction and mucus build up as is implied in all popular books, I’d be very grateful.  It may be that in say running a sort of bronchoconstriction comes on without typical asthmatic feelings but this seems to be a special form of the disease. <snip 3)  A good doctor for asthma should have (had) the disease himself …(snip) This is a cute anecdote, which doesn’t hold much water. A doctor will have more empathy for a disease if he/she has had similar experiences, but that doesn’t automatically make the doctor more skilled. What matters is interest, compassion, and knowledge. If a doctor is motivated he/she will learn — from patients, medical research, colleagues, and books. Should a transplant surgeon have had a transplant to be good? The neurosurgeon? How about the pathologist performing an autopsy?

Hear hear, but it’s only on the asthma question where I differ. Please forgive my sarcastic tone. I just don’t understand what your point is.

It’s that the popular view that bronchoconstriction causes asthmatic respiratory drive and is unaffected by breathing is just out of line with physiological research.

Sure, but do send me details of some references disproving Clarke and Hibbert, which still seem to be highly relevant for anyone reading up the subject. No financial interest in anything here.

Response:

On a slightly different note.  Does anyone know how smog interacts with exercise induced asthma.

Yes. Anything that increases inflammation in the small airways in the lungs may worsen asthma symptoms (e.g.,second-hand smoke, smog). Can exercise induced asthma begin at any time in one’s life or can I reasonably assume that the smog is a(if not the) main trigger for the asthma.

Exercise induced asthma (EIA) may indeed begin at any time in life. Is it possible to have this type of asthma show up only when running (and not swimming or biking)?

Yes. Swimming is one of the sports least likely to exacerbate EIA. Running is one of the most likely. Several factors influence the severity of EIA. Cold dry air and air pollution are well known triggers. The role of allergies to certain inhaled allergens (e.g.,pollen) is also closely tied to EIA.  Additionally, the intensity and duration of the exercise may influence symptoms. Usually, the more intense the exercise, the more likely it is for symptoms to occur. — Mark A. Jenkins, M.D SportsMed Web http://riceinfo.rice.edu/~jenkins

Response:

On a slightly different note.  Does anyone know how smog interacts with exercise induced asthma.  I ride in Southern California in the inland valley and the smog is usually quite bad.  As I am a grad student I have the time to ride during the day.  I have noticed recently that when I went during the middle of the day my ride would be fine.  However, once I got home and did something for a little while I would be unable to breathe deeply without a cough.   I never had it happen when I exercised in the Northeast.  Can exercise induced asthma begin at any time in one’s life or can I reasonably assume that the smog is a(if not the) main trigger for the asthma. Thanks, Michael

 Mike: I live where you do. Your problem will be worsened by smog and other irritants. Try riding up near Baldy Village or in Crestline area

Response:

Yes. Anything that increases inflammation in the small airways in the lungs may worsen asthma symptoms (e.g.,second-hand smoke, smog). not swimming or biking)?

Yes. Swimming is one of the sports least likely to exacerbate EIA. Running is one of the most likely. Several factors influence the severity of EIA. Cold dry air and air pollution are well known triggers. The role of allergies to certain inhaled allergens (e.g.,pollen) is also closely tied to EIA.  Additionally, the intensity and duration of the exercise may influence symptoms. Usually, the more intense the exercise, the more likely it is for symptoms to occur. — Mark A. Jenkins, M.D SportsMed Web http://riceinfo.rice.edu/~jenkins

Dr. Jenkins,         May I respectfully point out that you are merely talking about asthma in the sense the word is used in any encylopedia or popular book on the subject, i. e. objective shortage of oxygen in the tissues due to obstruction of the airways so that the sufferer not only has a feeling he should breathe more but should actually be given medication to make this possible.  Modern research points out that an asthmatic in an attack is usually hyperventilating and owing to the Bohr-Haldane effect not improving the supply of oxygen to his tissues, so that the better course, at least outside sporting activities, is to keep breathing under control at all costs.  It’s the hyperventilation that does the real harm, see P.S.Clarke: J of Asthma 19(4) 249-251 (1982) and Hibbert et al. Brit. J. of Psychiatry (1988), 153, 687-689.         To me as someone with reactive airways it  seems that often the advice given on taking asthma medication is illogical, like giving someone with eczma something that will enable him to go on scratching without it hurting.  I’m presently experiencing living in a pollen-charged atmosphere and there may be dust mites as well, but disciplined breathing seems to be the best tactic and natural as well. Three points I go by: 1)  Breathing more when an asthmatic feeling comes on is not going to help. 2)  Because carbon dioxide is short when there is such a feeling, it may be helpful to do some exercise like brisk walking with restricted breathing.  Carbon dioxide helps relax the airways. 3)  A good doctor for asthma should have (had) the disease himself and be extremely skillfull in prescribing asthma drugs and also have something to say on hyperventilation (see article by Clarke), besides of course all the stuff on asthma triggers. Cheers, A.R.Friedel, no financial interest in any asthma cures.

Response:

Dr. Jenkins,         May I respectfully point out that you are merely talking about asthma in the sense the word is used in any encylopedia or popular book on the subject, (snip)

No. I am talking about asthma as an illness that affects people. I have never treated a book with asthma.  Modern research points out that … <snip P.S.Clarke: J of Asthma 19(4) 249-251 (1982) and Hibbert et al. Brit. J. of Psychiatry (1988), 153, 687-689.

Modern? How about something from this decade? There’s a great deal that has come out in the past 10 years. <snip 3)  A good doctor for asthma should have (had) the disease himself …(snip)

This is a cute anecdote, which doesn’t hold much water. A doctor will have more empathy for a disease if he/she has had similar experiences, but that doesn’t automatically make the doctor more skilled. What matters is interest, compassion, and knowledge. If a doctor is motivated he/she will learn — from patients, medical research, colleagues, and books. Should a transplant surgeon have had a transplant to be good? The neurosurgeon? How about the pathologist performing an autopsy? Please forgive my sarcastic tone. I just don’t understand what your point is. All I did was answer a question about whether smog can make exercise induced asthma worse. Period. Apologies to all since this has nothing to do with triathlons. End-of-thread.                      Sincerely,                                     Mark — Mark A. Jenkins, M.D SportsMed Web http://riceinfo.rice.edu/~jenkins

Response:

Doug, I don’t know about using Primatine, but I use a combination of inhalers for asthma, and as long as I keep on schedule, I rarely have a full-blown asthma attack.  The best bet would be to see your doctor, have breathing tests done, etc.  I have been using mine for about 6 or 7 years, and they have tried different combinations of inhalers and injested drugs.  Right now, I do use albuterol, take it 4 times daily (including a few minutes before working out), and this is also the one I would use if I did get an asthma attack.  Twice a day, I also take a flunisolide inhaler, which supposedly has some kind of hormone in it that could cause a bad reaction in certain people.  This second one replaced a cromyln inhaler about a year ago. If you have any other questions about this, feel free to email me, but the best results would be to see a doctor, who would probably set you up with an allergist. Tim Murphy

Response:

writes: The article said to go to a doctor to have ibutrol prescribed vs. over the counter epinephrine (Primatene).

Epinephrine is a dangerous drug for asthma.  It is exempted from many FDA rules because it has been on the market for decades.  Epinephrine is risky because it elevates blood pressure and causes heart rhythm problems. Albuterol (Proventil, Ventolin, others) is MUCH safer.  All of these bronchodilator medicines carry some risk – and are responsible for several deaths in the USA annually.  This is why using safer, preventive medicines is wise for asthmatics who have frequent or preventable attacks. IN OTHER ADVICE (Kristen Moegling) writes: See a pumonary specialist who can accurately detect your asthma while doing a treadmill test.

This is fun, but expensive and tedious.  I administer a spirometry test in the office, have the patient run around the block to provoke symptoms, then repeat the test.  Works like a charm at 10% the cost and hassle. Just be sure that the doc can do "spirometry" tests in the office, not just "peak flow".  Also be sure that you can provoke the symptoms – although the test might turn out to be positive without symptoms.  The second part of testing is a therapeutic trial, preventing or stopping symptoms with medicines. Some doctors are way too quick to misdiagnose. If you do have it, keep a detailed log book to find your trigger factors.

I agree.  Bring the logbook to the doctor’s office with you.  Pay attention to temperature, time of day, recent weather, and dietary factors also. Kristen Moegling  

BTW, the usual advice is to tie one inhaler to the wetsuit zipper string, in case you have trouble in the water. AND…. (MFiner) writes: Does anyone know how smog interacts with exercise induced asthma.

Makes it worse.  So does dust, smoke, animal dander, pollen, and mold. Byron J. Byron Walthall, Jr. Charlotte, NC, USA

Response:

Is it possible to have this type of asthma show up only when running (and not swimming or biking)? I just read an article in Runner’s World about excercise induced

asthma.  I don’t like to blame my shortcomings on anyone, or anything, but this sounded like my problem!

No matter how often I run, I never – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – seem to get over a fitness plateau.

Response:

I just read an article in Runner’s World about excercise induced asthma.  I don’t like to blame my shortcomings on anyone, or anything, but this sounded like my problem!  No matter how often I run, I never seem to get over a fitness plateau.  The article said to go to a doctor to have ibutrol prescribed vs. over the counter epinephrine (Primatene).  I thought I’d try the Primatene first to see if in fact this would help my wheezing.  A couple of questions: 1. Is there any danger in using Primatene as directed? 2. Does ibutrol work better? Any info on either of these two products would be appreciated. — Doug Kraus tri-turtle

Response:

In the old days of bike racing, epinephrine was a banned drug. Is it still so in triathlon? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just read an article in Runner’s World about excercise induced asthma.  I don’t like to blame my shortcomings on anyone, or anything, but this sounded like my problem!  No matter how often I run, I never seem to get over a fitness plateau.  The article said to go to a doctor to have ibutrol prescribed vs. over the counter epinephrine (Primatene).  I thought I’d try the Primatene first to see if in fact this would help my wheezing.  A couple of questions: 1. Is there any danger in using Primatene as directed? 2. Does ibutrol work better? Any info on either of these two products would be appreciated. — Doug Kraus tri-turtle

– Richard W. Denney, Jr., P.E. Director of ITS Consulting Viggen Corporation 13101 Preston Road, Suite 300 Dallas, Texas 75240 972.726.6012 voice 972.726.6013 fax

Response:

I had a friend give me the same advice.  Go to a doctor and talk to him about the possibility of asthma.  That’s what happended to me.  I started getting treatment, and immediately set PRs. The perscription drugs are the ones of choice, but there is a lot more to managing asthma than just getting a perscription.  You need to understand  what’s going on and what the choices are.  For a number of years, intal took care of my asthma.  Now I am taking several drugs, based on a comprehensive training log.  Find a good asthma doctor and read, read, read!  Also ask questions.  There are lost of others here on RST with asthma. Good luck. Neal Silver Spring, MD – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just read an article in Runner’s World about excercise induced asthma.  I don’t like to blame my shortcomings on anyone, or anything, but this sounded like my problem!  No matter how often I run, I never seem to get over a fitness plateau.  The article said to go to a doctor to have ibutrol prescribed vs. over the counter epinephrine (Primatene).  I thought I’d try the Primatene first to see if in fact this would help my wheezing.  A couple of questions: 1. Is there any danger in using Primatene as directed? 2. Does ibutrol work better? Any info on either of these two products would be appreciated. — Doug Kraus tri-turtle

Response:

Doug, I have exercise induced asthma and did triathlons for a couple of years before it was diagnosed.  I thought things like tasting blood in my mouth, wheezing, and blacking out in the pool where " normal" and a sign of working out hard.  It sounds like you do not have very severe asthma but it is something definitely worth checking out with a doctor.  That approach is probably better than just trying an over the counter medication and see if you get over the "plateau." A simple test you can do yourself after a run is to take a deep breath and exhale it completely.  If there is any sign of wheezing or coughing chances are that you have some level of asthma. Hopefully you don’t but do check it out. -Jan

Response:

On a slightly different note.  Does anyone know how smog interacts with exercise induced asthma.  I ride in Southern California in the inland valley and the smog is usually quite bad.  As I am a grad student I have the time to ride during the day.  I have noticed recently that when I went during the middle of the day my ride would be fine.  However, once I got home and did something for a little while I would be unable to breathe deeply without a cough.   I never had it happen when I exercised in the Northeast.  Can exercise induced asthma begin at any time in one’s life or can I reasonably assume that the smog is a(if not the) main trigger for the asthma. Thanks, Michael

Response:

ISO homeopathic allegy treatment

Question:

Allergens do cause an imbalance in your immune system.  No allergens no imbalance. Go to a homeopath. Homoepathy works by selecting a remedy which produces symptoms _similar_ to yours, not the same. So finding potentised forms of your allergens will do you no good at all. Also remember that it is not the allergens themselves which cause the allergies, but an imbalance in your immune system.

Maybe you can then explain why these allergens do not produce an imbalance in mine, or for that matter, most other people’s immune systems. My point is that the imbalance is there to start with, that is the cause if you like, the allergens merely trigger the reaction. Consider a TV remote, now say we both have identical TV’s and identical remotes OK? Now say your TV’s channel 7 is not tuned in. OK so if I point my remote at your TV and press 7 I will not get a signal, but if I point it at my TV I will. It is not the remote that is causing the problem with channel 7 on your TV, it is in fact your TV that is malfunctioning. ie the remote is like the allergen and the response of the body (the TV in this case) can either by tuned in or not tuned in. See what I mean. And what homoepathy does is, it tunes in your TV for you, in a very special way. So if you tune in channel 7 none of the other channels will be affected ie there are no harmful side effects. Know what I mean FPL either be in tune — Fred Logue, Dept. of Physics,Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland., Phone +353-1-6082169     Fax +353-1-6798412.

Response:

The discussion on the subject has gone a little bit too far. Too far?? How so?? Is it not good to have discussion with viewpoints on BOTH sides?? Or do u prefer for people just to echo your party line??

 Too far means that we are discussing too many topics at a time. Each of them is far from obvious and needs separate discussion. In future I would prefer that everebody speaks for himself, not for the opponent. I agree that it calls for further studies and would encourage homeopaths to do these studies so we could sort out whether there is anything to their claims. … I think before we use the term "fact" we should be rather certain of what we speak. I also think it curious for someone who argues that homeopathy is an *individualized* treatment so clinical studies really are worthless to evaluate whether it would be effective,  to then quote studies in an effort to convince others that homeopathy is a really viable treatment. You can’t have it both ways.

I think that "having it both ways" is much more common. Some people are saying that homeopathic remedies are toxic (See medline). At the same time they are sayng that its action is nothing but placebo. I am just saying that to be reliable, design of an experiment should correspond to the object. If it does not, both negative and positive results are expected and this is exactly what we see on medline. It does not mean that clinical evaluation is worthless. It just has to be performed properly. It seems to me that you are not trying to prove that homeopathy works.

I can not prove that homeopathy works, as well as you can not prove that it does not. If we could do so, it would be a scientific breakthrough. However the theoretical basis for homeopathy is rather strong. It includes difference in individual reactions (well known facts such as heart tissue reactions to cardiac glycosides), studies on so-called synthropic pools (linked diseases)*, effects of trace concentrations of chemicals on biosystems, reversion (or change) in effect of the chemicals depending upon the concentration, clinical observations on emotional and somatic interactions (such as fear of death in cardiac patients), and many more. I can not go into the details here, but I would recommend a book by Alfons Stiegele, "Homoopathische arzneimittellehere", one of the best books I know on modern scientific understanding of homeopathic principles. *Sorry, these studies are not easily available. It seems to me that you are just trying to defend your assumptions.

Science is nothing but assumptions. Aren’t you trying to defend yours? What would you say if a well controlled studies failed to replicate positive results?? It is likely you would say that homeopathy is an individual treatment so it does not matter what worked for the people in the study. Only when the studies are in your favor will you publish the results. Objectivity at its finest:-)

May be I was not clear in my postings… I apologize, but I have to repeat that individual sucseptibility is very important. It is much more important, from my point of view, then the law of small doses. (The last one is a little bit too exagirated, once again, from my particular point of view). If we can not take into concideration individual reactions (so-called constitution), treatment can not be called homeopathic. And study of such a treatment can say about anything but homeopathy itself. I am not sure that today we have proper methodology available to perform individualized clinical study. If such a study fails to prove that homeopathy works, so be it. What would you say if such a study reveals that homeopathy works? Would you answer that the process of questioning itself (up to two hours of consultation) works and not remedies? In some studies it is shown that different homeopathic remedies and even different dilutions of the same remedy has different effect. Would you say then that there are different classes of placebo? I apologize for long postings. It seems to me that the discussion is interesting only for two people. I do not mind public discussion, but if you prefer to write me personally, here I am, ilia,

Response:

This post is in response to the remote control-television analogy posted recently relating to imbalance.  I apologize for not having the original post.       The analogy was that of 2 t.v.s and 2 remotes with one t.v. not being able to receive chanel 7. The idea was that the tv was broke not the remote.     I am submitting a (what I believe to be better and more acurate) analogy of my own using tv.  Say 2 individuals own each  a television set. One of the individuals is able to receive from his/her cable or satalite provider chanels 1-10.  The second person receives a different provider which gives chanels 1-10 not including chanel 7.  Both TVs work fine but the providers (the genetics of how a person would respond) are different. Now the individual who receives all the chanels would be equivalent to the person with allergies. Say chanel 7 is that part of the immune system response which elicites an IgE response (allergic response). Is the set that receives the instructions broken?,No.  Is the individual who can not receive the chanel 7 broken?, No.   One could argue that it is receiving chanel 7 that is the problem, however, let us say that by getting 7 you obtain some benifit (say it is PBS, which to some people is an illness). Then the individual may have in some respect be better off than the other. It is believed that a strong (good)IgE response may be protective against helmith and other parasitic infections. The person who has the ability to class switch better to IgE may be better off than one who can not.  (Can tune in chanel 7).         This analogy could go on, but I’ll end it here. Once again the set is not broken, just has a different cable/satalite provider.  (The immune system is not out of balance or broken, just has a different set of instructions to follow). TLWPhD

Response:

Allergens do cause an imbalance in your immune system.  No allergens no imbalance. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Go to a homeopath. Homoepathy works by selecting a remedy which produces symptoms _similar_ to yours, not the same. So finding potentised forms of your allergens will do you no good at all. Also remember that it is not the allergens themselves which cause the allergies, but an imbalance in your immune system. This statement reflects a lack of knowledge of how allergens work.  It is do directly to the allergen.  What occurs is that upon initial exposure the individual makes an antibody response to the allergen which is subsequently switched to an IgE isotype.  After this occur, there is a circulating level of IgE specific for the allergen. Mast cells contain receptors for the constant region of IgE and therefore are coated with IgE-working end facing out.  Upon re-exposure to the allergen these IgE bound to mast cells bind the allergen and are crosslinked. This crosslinking causes the mast cell to degranulate releasing lots of molecules such as histamines which cause the allergy symptoms. Why does it happen more often in some people opposed to others? Probably because some individuals class switch to IgE more often than others in response to a particular antigen (called allergen when it is switch to IgE and gives allergic response). As for the statement on how a homeopath remedy works I could not say, however, be warned that if they do give similar allergy treatments as an allergist would do, there is the potential of an anaphalactic response which could be lethal.  Be sure the person administering the treatment understands this and is prepared for such an event (epinephrine ect). TO the original poster,  good luck  and  before you start anything do some literature research. TLWPhD

Response:

Sorry, the original article expired on my server. Those who say that homeopathic remedies may be toxic are saying so because of contaminants that may be present due to lack of rigid quality control standards.

As homeopathic remedies are subject to quality control (By FDA in the US; they have DIN numbers and are considered safe), *assumption* that homeopathic remedies are contaminated in hardly reliable unless it is a proven criminal case. . I am just saying that to be reliable, design of an experiment should correspond to the object. If it does not, both negative and positive results are expected and this is exactly what we see on medline. And why cannot homeopathy be proven to a *reasonable* degree of certainty (since nothing can be abolutely proven true) as so many conventional medical treatments are. For instance double blind placebo controlled studies strongly suggest that antidepressants are effective for severe depression since the response to the antidepressant is consistently better than placebo. Is this *absolute* proof? No. Is it highly suggestive and signifigant? Yes. My research into homeopathy reveals a marked lack of consistent positive results that can be replicated. This suggests that homeopathy is nothing more than placebo.

How many of these positive studies were attempted to be replicated? It only suggests the necessity of such trials. Science attempts to prove assumptions using the scientific method. That is NOT the same as defending assumptions. For instance a true scientist would try to test homeopathy by doing studies. If he/she found that the studies did not demonstrate an effect better than placebo then the treatment would be rejected.

So, if say aspirin does not work in cases of say, gastritis (and it surely does not) it is necessarily should be considered a placebo? May be we should first define proper group of patients and speak one subject at a time? If say, Rhus tox. does not work in some cases it just means that it does not work in some cases and nothing more. However true believers in homeopathy would simply reject any negative findings usually with the excuse that the study did not understand homeopathy. It is really pointless since those who believe in homeopathy will believe in it even if hundreds of well controlled studies demonstrated otherwise.

What are these hundreds of studies we are not paying attention to? Were they all replicated by an independent researcher? Were they all using correct protocol? If somebody does not see microbes suggests that he should take a proper microscope and know where to look at. But if you elevate individual susceptibility to its highest degree then you cannot rely on ANY treatment to be valid since everyone is different and if 1000 people responded to a particular remedy for a particular symptom then the 1001st might be said to not have any greater than random chance of responding since "individual response" is of the highest order. Once again you cannot, although you try, have it both ways.

If you elevate your attitude (elevation of everything to its highest degree)to the highest degree you probably obtain nonsence in every field. Elevate normal behavior signs and see psychosis. Elevate data of any clinical test and see results. Is it a way of a *true scientist*? If this is what you call *scientific approach* there is no wonder you see just pseudoscientific mumbo-jumbo. Yes, there is a problem with individualization of treatment. But we do not have to "elevate individual susceptibility to its highest degree". However, it is desirable to understand that patient’s individuality is important. You should know, that it is common in science omit some variables, which are not important for the task. If we shoot somebody right between his eyes, this person is likely to die. In this case we can "omit" his individuality. However when we are talking about other conditions, we are noticing that patients are different. Different in various ways. In conventional medicine there are attempts to individualize treatment of many conditions, including hypertension. (BTW, nobody knows "scientifically" what it really is. Except that there are some cases when blood pressure is elevated due to unknown reasons; And nobody says that it does not exist just because the reasons are not yet known). If you ignore it, you should be aware that the results of the study may not be correct.    In some studies it is shown that different homeopathic remedies and even different dilutions of the same remedy has different effect. Would you say then that there are different classes of placebo? Well if indeed they did then maybe there is more to homeopathy than I thought. You give me the journal and study that you are referring to WITH a replicated study by independent examiner and I will review it.

Sounds like you are doing me a personal favor. Hope you did not mean that. Is evidence for homoeopathy reproducible? Author:    Reilly D; Taylor MA; Beattie NG; Campbell JH; McSharry C; Aitchison TC; Carter R; Stevenson RD Source:  Lancet, 344: 8937, 1994 Dec 10, 1601-6 Author: Fisher P; House I; Belon P; Turner P Source: Hum Toxicol, 6: 4, 1987 Jul, 321-4 Abstract: There are a number of reports that certain metals, when prepared by the homoeopathic method of serial dilution with succussion, stimulate excretion of the same metal from  previously loaded animals.<… Homoeopathic treatment did not cause a significant change in urinary lead excretion compared to distilled water, although there were significant differences between different homoeopathic dilutions. Double-blind trial comparing the effectiveness of the homeopathic preparation Galphimia   potentiation D6, Galphimia dilution 10(-6) and placebo on pollinosis. Author:     Wiesenauer M; Gaus W Source:     Arzneimittelforschung, 35: 11, 1985, 1745-7 Regards, ilia

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I am not an expert by any means on the subject but my experience with homeopathic treatments has been good.   It appeared to me that there must have been some sort of imbalance that would cause the T-cells and B-cells to react improperly and hence create antibodies against typical everyday items instead of actual bacteria.   Maybe this is so because a lot of the typical things that cause allergies are slightly irratating to the AVERAGE person to begin with.   Therefore, a person whose system is already out of balance with too much of the bad floras might react more acutely to an average irritant causing the immune system to attack the irritant as though it were a bacteria. After the cleansing diet (no – yeast, sugar, preservatives, caffine, no acidic food etc.) that I was on, my supposed allergies went away.  My congestion of 5 years cleared.  My skin rash of 4 years, diagnosed as ‘exema’, cleared entirely, my exhaustion disappeared, and my overall health improved.  The items that bothered me before either stopped bothering me entirely or did not cause as severe a reaction as before. I am not saying that this should be the solution to everybody’s allergies but if done under a doctor’s supervision surely can’t hurt.   It takes a lot of disipline and patience but if nothing else is an extremely healthy way to eat.  If you are interested in brand names of several vitamins & supplements that can be taken to boost the immune system and fight fungus naturally like garlic and ginger.   Recommendations for these can be given by your doctor or by most pharmacists. Personally, I found that the two most important things are 1) to have a strong faith to make it through the rough first 2 weeks and 2) to find a doctor (a certified MD) who will monitor your progress BUT you will find that most MDs discount this type of treatment so finding someone you can count on may be difficult.  I found that I needed someone who would also be their for moral support as well as office visits since it requires a lot of will power to continue with treatment for so many months.  Most medicines are dispensed for 10-14 days and the results are immediate.   With my homeopathic treatment, it is worse the first 10-14 days (kind of like withdrawl) and then the progress is slow but more effective long term. It took me 3 months to get my life back to normal but after 5 years of being told that I was stuck with a ‘leper type’ rash on my arm and severe allergies to tons of stuff 3 months was a small price to pay.   Since MY experience, my oldest daughter was given a strong dose of antibiotic which caused similar problems with her. Her first pediatrician insisted that she was all of a sudden ‘allergic’ to several different things in our house.  I put her on this diet under the supervision of her new pediatrician and we had great results.  She currently is on a regular diet with no allergic reactions to almost everything that initially bothered her. Good luck!   -Michelle ;)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When one does a controlled study to determine if a therapy really appears to work, "results" are the outcome that are measured. It has little to do with "theory" and much to do with substance and results. It is certainly true that the homeopathic "theory" is of very dubious value. Some would like to think that despite the lack of credible theory of homopathy,  that it works better than placebo. Whether it does or not in any general way is a long way from being demonstrated by studies done. If you go by anecdotes (hey it worked for me) then you might believe anything. Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong

It seemes that the study should be adequate to the subject. Studies of homeopathy are usually performed without understanding of homeopathy: "We investigated X patients with "Y" disease, gave them "Z" in a homeopathic potency and… it does not work". Homeopathy is an INDIVIDUALIZED treatment. And the studies should be INDIVIDUALIZED as well. Simple, isn’t it? The real problem is that conventional medicine lacks appropriate methodology to describe patient’s individuality. However, homeopathy HAS A RELIABLE THEORY, but it was never theoretical. It has been always oriented on results. And these results has being obtained all over the world. Or may be all Medical Doctors, practicing homeopathy are ignorant? By the way, one can easily get information on homeopathy using Medline. It is not a friendly place for homeopaths, but there is a lot of studies showing that homeopathy WORKS beyond "placebo effect".   A lot of chemicals were shown in CONVENTIONAL BIOCHEMISTRY to work in a concentration of 0,0005 per liter and less, which is equal to some homeopathic dilutions. And in that concentration they are able to influence living objects. If anybody wants to find information concerning homeopathic theory, there are plenty of books, written by RELIABLE Doctors and Scientists. Just find a good bookstore. Homeopathy HAS THEORY. It HAS RESULTS. It HAS A HISTORY, longer than the history of conventional medicine. Most of homeopathic remedies were tried by centuries of practice and they are SAFE (if used appropriately). Some time ago French Academy decided that "Stones can not fall from the sky because there are no stones in there" and it was a significant step back in astronomy as meteorite samples were thrown out of museums. Do not treat homeopathy like it is something stupid. It is not. Regards,

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Allergens do cause an imbalance in your immune system.  No allergens no imbalance.

Actually, the allergic persons immune system is quite balanced.  What should be said is  No allergens no IgE.  Allergens actvate a different branch of the immune system. However, like most immune responses, there are some uncomfortable and down-right painful outward effects.  For example, when you get a cold or an infection, you can get a fever, malaise, sneezing, ect. other things cause rashes ect. All theRse are "side effects" of immune system activation. They have functions (example rash=increase blood flow and T cell activation ect.).  This is not to say the immune system is imbalanced. It is just doing its’ job. Of coarse this is over-simplification and I know I have left alot out (like what is believed to be the original function of IgE). TLW PhD (field of study is immunology)

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When one does a controlled study to determine if a therapy really appears to work, "results" are the outcome that are measured. It has little to do with "theory" and much to do with substance and results.

This is meaningless. Results have nothing to do with substance and results. Results are to do with results. If there is no substance there, you’re not going to catch any sensible homoeopath claiming that a substance is responsible. In fact they talk about "imprinting" which you may well think is ridiculous, but that isn’t the point, which is, does the exercise work, with or without the substance ? Some would like to think that despite the lack of credible theory of homopathy,  that it works better than placebo. Whether it does or not in any general way is a long way from being demonstrated by studies done.

Correct that to: "studies done that I have bothered to look into". There was a long series of tests on mastitis in cows round about 1992. Cows demonstrating placebo effect ? auto-suggestion ? – pull the other one ! Dan Wilson

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The discussion on the subject has gone a little bit too far. I can not answer shortly. If somebody wants to say "I am uncertain", it is his right to hesitate. I am not able to convince anybody even that I actually exist: no double-blind studies has been performed yet. There is also a big question if we can be actually sure about anything, independantly upon the evidence. Here are some of extracts from medline you might find interesting. 1. The clinical efficacy of Vertigoheel in the treatment of vertigo of various etiology. Author      Morawiec-Bajda A; Lukomski M; Latkowski B      ENT Clinic, Medical Academy in L

Got questions- I'm an Asthma Specialist

Question:

How do we know you are an asthma specialist?  What are your credentials? Where do you practice?  Are you an allergist, pulmonologist, or what?

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Please fill me in on your background and your  views of all the various approaches to curing or managing asthma. My daughter has tried many methods and each with various degrees of success. Currently she takes serevent, ventolyn and vanceril. I do not like the thought of keeping her on this program forever but it is truly the one we have had the most success with and the one we wanted to avoid the most. It is costly and I worry about long term effects of all these inhaled drugs. She is a ballerina – dances 5 times per week.  She is 13 and has suffered from asthma for 9 years. It varies from mild to severe – has been hospitalized on several occasions. Any info or insight is appreciated. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well folks, the office is open for questions. I am a specialist in the United States specializing in Allergy Asthma and Immunology and will open this page to questions about asthma. If I am able to give helpful supportive information, I will attempt to share what I know with those suffering from asthma.

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My friend came home from the hospital 2 weeks ago from an asthma attack.    For 5 days received doses of methpred nis.   Anything to  help  her to make it easier to come down from the steroids,  she’s experienced  24 hrs of headache and severe nausea.  vomits nothing all day , lost 10lbs in 8 days.  have tried all remedies, cola syrup, dr put her on anti-nausea and that hasn’t help.

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Well folks, the office is open for questions. I am a specialist in the United States specializing in Allergy Asthma and Immunology and will open this page to questions about asthma. If I am able to give helpful supportive information, I will attempt to share what I know with those suffering from asthma.

Response:

Well folks, the office is open for questions. I am a specialist in the United States specializing in Allergy Asthma and Immunology and will open this page to questions about asthma. If I am able to give helpful supportive information, I will attempt to share what I know with those suffering from asthma.

Not to be skeptical – but is there somewhere your credentials can be verified independently?? — "That which seemed a problem often avers itself to be the best thing that could have happened to you."                    –Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan

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My question…..         How does someone whos has had severe Asthma their entire life…. been educated by dozens of doctors, and experienced a variety of effects from medications, triggers, and bad/good advice reduce his cynical attitude about the offerings from the medical community?? This is actually an honest question even though it seems to be a slam.  From my experience I have made it from the denial stage but still have problems listening to the fundemental wisdom about Asthma each time I switch doctors because of a move to a new region of the nation. I have never interupted or argued with the doctor….but damn it, I WANT TO SOMETIMES!!                                         Richard says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well folks, the office is open for questions. I am a specialist in the United States specializing in Allergy Asthma and Immunology and will open this page to questions about asthma. If I am able to give helpful supportive information, I will attempt to share what I know with those suffering from asthma.

Response:

effective psychotherapy of asthma

Question:

A brilliant Russian psychotherapist (to my knowledge, one of the best in the country) is looking for job in English-speaking countries. Presently working at the Intitute of Pulmonology, Russian Health Ministry, Moscow. The main field of experience is TREATMENT of ASTHMA BRONCHIALE and organization of self-help groups in this area. Perfect English knowledge. A lot of people have got rid of corticosteroids after a course of individual & group therapy. Further information, CV and list of publication are available at: Dr. Boris Kotchoubey, Institute for Medical Psychology and Behavioral Neurobiology, University of Tubingen, Gartenstr. 29 Tubingen 72074 Germany Fax +49 7071 295956

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Asthma is a purely physiological problem with fairly well understood pathology.  Please find some other way to enter this country other than by attempting to waste our time, and take our money, with non-cures. …. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A brilliant Russian psychotherapist (to my knowledge, one of the best in the country) is looking for job in English-speaking countries. Presently working at the Intitute of Pulmonology, Russian Health Ministry, Moscow. The main field of experience is TREATMENT of ASTHMA BRONCHIALE and organization of self-help groups in this area. Perfect English knowledge. A lot of people have got rid of corticosteroids after a course of individual & group therapy. Further information, CV and list of publication are available at: Dr. Boris Kotchoubey, Institute for Medical Psychology and Behavioral Neurobiology, University of Tubingen, Gartenstr. 29 Tubingen 72074 Germany Fax +49 7071 295956

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In my experience of fifteen years of dealing with asthma, I am convinced that my emotional well being or lack thereof has a definite impact on my asthma. Clearly to me psychotherapy can play an important role in managing asthma.

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